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Offline Samana Johann

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Association - How to address wrong view?
« on: August 12, 2017, 05:50:00 pm »
How to address wrong view?
 
Question: Once asked by Upāsaka Ryan on SE-Buddhism
 
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How to address wrong view?

Did the Buddha gave any teachings on how to deal with individuals spreading wrong view?

If someone is expounding their beliefs in a public forum under the guise of the Buddha's teaching, given the possibility that these views may misinform and lead others astray, does one have any responsibility to try to rectify this, and if so, what would be the proper way of addressing such an issue?

 
Sādhu!

A very fundamental an important question. Since it is a very always current question in many Dhamma-Communities, Ātman likes to try to give the question a proper frame, dedication and broadness.


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Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa.
 Homage to the Blessed One, the Worthy One, the Rightly Self-awakened One.

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa.
Homage to the Blessed One, the Worthy One, the Rightly Self-awakened One.

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa.
Homage to the Blessed One, the Worthy One, the Rightly Self-awakened One.


Index

 The effect of wrong view?
 What is wrong view?
 What is right view?
 Should one react to wrong view?
 By which means should one approach wrong views of others?
 Conclusion

The effect of wrong view?

Practising the Dhamma is all about gaining and protect ones right view and abound and avoid wrong view (which is at least avijjā, not knowing) the root cause of suffering and even the basic meritorious deeds are done for the sake of gaining right view and to keep it maintained within the practice of the development of the path to liberation.

To be able to grow proper in the true Dhamma, there are actually less outwardly conditions but prominent which may hinder and prospering such as:
 
  • paccantaro – living on a place where Buddha Sasana does not flourish
  • micchaditthi – born/associate among people with wrong view

Under this conditions are also several planes of existence like the formless sphere, the sphere of form in the Brahma world and all the stages of deprivation, like the animal world, that of hungry ghosts and the hell realms. So to have gained a human life and even get in contact with the teachings of the Buddha, is something very rare in this world and one should not miss any possibilities that would have much effect on ones welfare and that of all other beings.

So like told by the Buddha, associating with people of right view and abstaining from associating with people of wrong view, is actually the "whole spiritual life".
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If wanderers who are members of other sects should ask you, 'What, friend, are the prerequisites for the development of the wings to self-awakening?' you should answer, 'There is the case where a monk has admirable people as friends, companions, & colleagues. This is the first prerequisite for the development of the wings to self-awakening. Quote from: AN 9.1, in Kalyanamitta

There is nothing more serious as to hold wrong views and the fact that one is not so strong as he might believe, since - if one is not firm in Dhamma - one tends to adopt views and behaviour which are usual in certain environments and so one does good to do everything possible to avoid it, as soon such is senses with certitude. Such even small notions of wrong view, perceived by actions and behaviour penetrates so subtle that one even does not realize it, yet believing that he/she is immune to that what is recognised as not good. That matter goes so far and serious that the Buddha suggested to wanderer even alone if no association with people of right view can be found.
To address the effects of wrong view in short:
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Now, for one of wrong view, I tell you, there is one of two destinations: either hell or the animal womb. - DN 12

People act wrong out of wrong view. If there is no wrong view, there is no such as acting wrong. The same holds for the path and the practice. If there is no right view - what ever path factor might be developed - just wrong action, wrong speech... wrong samadhi, and wrong release at least, follows. (AN 10.103 )

So wrong view is the cause, is the reason for unskilled actions, taking life, what ever is not given, mistreat the truth by speech, all kinds of abusing and intoxication, conflicts, wars and every gross or subtle stress and suffering.

There are even kinds of wrong views, which are classified as pernicious false beliefs (niyata-micchāditthi), that means they are fixed to the destination of the hellish realms and suffering witout a way to avoid the effects to rippe, since they withdraw one for further developing the path of escape. Only if the effects of those pernicious false beliefs are exhausted one would be able to continue the grow in Dhamma.

We see that wrong view has in long time meassures but also in short time meassures suffering as its effect, for one self and for all others. When ever wrong view arises, it gives cause to suffering, for others by receiving the harmful acts of yours, but mostly for one self. Self possessive views lead to strong attachements on objects and objectives which are not possible be kept as ones own, since appearances and apparition are not lasting and so object to decay or the need a lot and continously sacrifices to keep it maintained.

What is wrong view?

Wrong view starts out at the very basics way of thinking:
 
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'O, that what belongs to others would be mine!' He bears ill will, corrupt in the resolves of his heart: 'May these beings be killed or cut apart or crushed or destroyed, or may they not exist at all!' He has wrong view, is warped in the way he sees things: 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no brahmans or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' - AN 10.176

What do those refusals mean in our normal and usual way of thinking?

 
  • There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed

    This is a certain believe that things either come by accident or one is the creator of all by one self. Or one has such as inherent right, one is inherent worthy of things and ones life and well-being does not effect others, is not on the cost of other beings "misfortune". A person of wrong view therefore is known as a person without gratitude and does not feel obligated. Typical modern strong wrong views are thinking in meassures of rights, believing in rights. This is a very serious and broad wrong view. Even most monks have falling into this wrong view today and are not dear to even teach rights and call for it rather than right view. A person who demands "I have this and that right", holds on rights, makes rights his means of gain and sustain, is a person of strong wrong view. People who do not see the scarifies and gifts in all they have gained do not feel gratitude and use them as moderate as possible so that such deeds need not be done again and again. People who think that they are righteous owner and have rights do do what ever they like with their gaining either develop strong craving around the gained or its opposite twin brother by being eternally careless, justify it even as non-attachment to possessions. Both approaches do not see the suffering of what all we use and own had caused and so do not venerate it in a proper way to avoid such in the future.
  • There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions.

    Such a person denies fruit of his actions and denies that results and perceived phenomena have their reasons. A person thinking in that way does not fear to do wrong and even certain "benefits" or "punishments" would not effect his behaviour. People who try to imitate such a non-duality-approach like "there is no doer, no receiver of actions" are very common in the sphere of people, calling themselves follower of the Buddha, yet such is most contra productive to gain even the needed right view to take refuge in the Buddha, the true Dhamma and his Saṅgha of Bhikkhus.
  • There is no this world, no next world

    This believe assumes that once existence has no previous causes as well that one does not take ones causes not further that to the point of death. That counts for lifetimes as well as for particular worlds and existences, moment for moment. A very broad thinking is for example job is job, and private is private, since thinking that one living serial different lives is very common in our days and certain "privacy" tools give support to believe such. It does not see that this or that existences in depended on a prerequisite and will also cause further states of existence. What ever kind of existence one takes on partly has influence on the other parts of existences. The fact that such does not happen in a straight linear way, does not properly reject the fact that there has been another existence before. As is you finish your existence with a certain hobby, all the good and bad you have developed will follow into your next existence and what ever skills do not come by accident, they had many spans of existence supportive to such, in advanced.
  • There is no mother, no father

    One believes that things and he him self does not have ancestors, there are not those who have gone before. A person who does not see that, does not honour, respect and does not feel obligated to those who actually prepared the way for one are called people of no integrity. Not seeing that nearly all we have, including or life, body, most simple skills are given out of goodness by or mother and father and later by our teachers, up till long lineage derived from to the Buddha, has no possible access to the Dhamma and will not be able to receive it by heart.
  • There are no spontaneously reborn beings

    Such a person denies the existence of beings behind his perception and with it the possibility to gain such desirable existences behind the known as well. One neither has respect of such beings (thinking on Devas and there virtue) nor would be feel scared of suddenly falling into a hell existence, since as it has not been seen by one self, how could such exist.
  • There are no brahmans or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves

    Such a person denies that there a people who have gone a different way as he is able to see. That is also a very common and blatant wrong view in our days where people seek for refuge in: "All are equal", "Its human to be like that", "There are no such as perfect people". Denying the existence of Noble Ones and righteous living and acting people will not give rise to put an effort to become such a person by one self.

Wrong view does therefore mostly denies the Buddha as worthy righteous self-awakened and with it the possibility to gain liberation, denies the good Dhamma, cause and effect, the depending co-arising and its possible use to gain liberation, and the Savaka-Saṅgha, the community of Monks who simply follows the Buddhas path correctly, may it be on the conventional or ideal level, which is also a very common blatant wrong view, thinking on all the various undertakings of developing Buddhism 2.0 or other secular adoptions trying to put the Dhamma under the measures of ordinary world ideals.

Very common wrong views of certain communities are thoughts like certain wrong doings are justified for a good purpose. There are even well known teacher and broadly high praised Monks and certain sects who believe that there are such things like righteous or even compassionate killing, stealing, lying...

Many of those aspects are very close connected with "Evil views with fixed destiny" - Niyata-micchāditthi:[nb]Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines, by Ven. Nyanatiloka[/nb]

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The so-called 'evil views with fixed destiny'  constituting the last of the 10 unwholesome courses of action (kammapatha), are the following three: 
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(1) the fatalistic 'view of the uncaused ness' of existence (ahetukaditthi),
(2) the view of the inefficacy of action' (akiriyaditthi),
(3) nihilism (natthikaditthi).


(1) was taught by Makkhali-Gosāla, a contemporary of the Buddha who denied every cause for the corruptness and purity of beings, and asserted that everything is minutely predestined by fate.

(2) was taught by Pūrana-Kassapa, another contemporary of the Buddha who denied every karmical effect of good and bad actions: "To him who kills, steals, robs, etc., nothing bad will happen. For generosity, self-restraint and truthfulness, etc. no reward is to be expected."

(3) was taught by Ajita-Kesakambali, a third contemporary of the Buddha who asserted that any belief in good action and its reward is a mere delusion, that after death no further life would follow, that man at death would become dissolved into the elements, etc.

Table I - Consciousness-States (viññāna kkhandha), karmic unwholesome (akusala), Rooted in attachment (lobha):
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22. accompanied by joy, associated with wrong view, unprompted
23. accompanied by joy, associated with wrong view, prompted
24. accompanied by joy, dissociated with wrong view, unprompted
25. accompanied by joy, dissociated with wrong view, prompted
26. accompanied by indifference, associated with wrong view, unprompted
27. accompanied by indifference, associated with wrong view, prompted
28. accompanied by indifference, dissociated with wrong view, unprompted
29.accompanied by indifference, dissociated with wrong view, prompted

As far as the classical classification of the Abhidhamma is possible connect-able to point them to perceivable deeds, the states of counciousness 23 and 27 are in connection with the Abhithanani of causing a split in the Saṅgha and with pernicious false beliefs. That means those are sustenaned and "deliberatly" innervated states, while die first four unskillful action can be of spontaneously kind and are mostly but not exclusive connected with the mind sates of 22 and 26.

Pernicious false view, is a fatale (in manners of unavoidable results) issue and, however, a wide spreaded matter in our modern world and bears also much potencial with in common Buddhist labeled approaches.

Common modern views and wide spreaded ideas are that:
 
  • Modern Human is here to enjoy and at the end, with death, there is nothing further. Its the classical materialistic belief.
  • Suicide as a solution, release, as an alternative, is such a fatal way of thinking, which also includes the simple devotion to non-reactive or silently death out of lacking nourishment.
  • To escape from suffering and yearning for the end with death, to rejoice with an end of it that is believed to come with death. That includes also such things like euthanasia, believing to give beings such a deliverance in ending with even killing them.


All those are pernicious wrong actions which lead assuredly to hell states.

Other believesytems and religions:

It is not generally sad, that the basicly right views are only to be found within the following of the Buddha. If we take the common believe, that christian belief is pernicious wrong view, one might be wrong, if spoken in general, since there are, like in most world religions, basic amounts of proper ways of thinking: like that there are consequences from wrong and right actions, conditionality and to a certain extent there is also live after death. The different there lies here "only" there, that there is an external power with judges the action, but there is no general denying of causality. And there are no thoughts that with death all come to an end. That is why a christian, muslim, hindu or other believe systems of the folk religions will possible lead into heavenly states and can not be seen as fatal wrong views. Whereas on householder equanimity - equanimity without insight - based believes, which can be easily developed by abdhidhamma irritations or unguided reading of Suttas, when people are taught topics on emptyness and anatta in wrong approaches or at an improper state of development, such short cutted quotes like "There is no committer, nobody who receives the results of action" (which is a matter of transcendent view, based of mundane, in a high state of spirituall development) without understanding and proper guided explaining will certainly lead into the frame of Nihilismus and with it to fatal wrong views and hell.

So when one is in contact with people of other religion in manners of practicing veneration, gratitude, generosity, basic precpets and so on, one can be closer with people of right view as in certain postmodern Buddhist enviroments, leading simply into strong defuse states of mind and its improper lost before having gained anything conductive for real release.

Wrong view is initiator of all kind of suffering and stress:

Behindsufferings root conditions of greed and hatred is always a notion of wrong view which leads to wrong effort and with it to wrong actions. The belief in a lasting peronality or an inherent self has many different forms and ways to be defined, but even to take in consideration if there is such as a self or not, already causes suffering, not to speak if one takes hold on it. However, since the path to liberation can not be developed without a strong wish and without efforts for it, there are skillful notions of self needed to progress on the path, like most blatant for developing the path elements of virtue. Here it is nessesary to make a notion self as the receiver of results of action as a big issue and use the self notion as a tool to counteract wrong doings and keep the precepts firm.

On a more refined level, wrong view focuses on denying the Four Noble Truth, that there is no suffering stress, not seeing the cause of suffering, not knowing the cessassion of suffering and not developing the path that leads to the cessation of suffering. Right mindfulness and aproximatly atention are here without functioning in a proper way. On the ultimate level all kind of views, notions from a certain stand, have to be abonded, and since as long there is a stand, there is a view, all view are at least dropt if the path is fully developed and release is gained. That is the place where real right view has come into existence and lasts. However, this state then can not be developed with no views, without mundane right view and one does not lose mudane right view when emersing from the unconditioned sphere on a mundane level of interaction.

What is right view?

Right view is the first path element and conditions all the other aspects of the path to liberation. So the main focus for everybody who seeks for either welfare in this life and the existences to come or evenlasting liberation of stress and suffering, is to develope right view. To help others and encourage them to right view is therefore the greatest gift one can possible share. So an eager desire to gain right view is needed and will be prosecuted by right effort, the wish needed to have right view out of wisely consideration, to have a reason for it as prerequisite and therefore seeing suffering after having gained a precious existence where first such as the presents of suffering can be seen and secound a way to gain release is taught is the world, is its condition, to see not only a reason to put an effort, but also how to put an effort to gain the intented result.
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"And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view. And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no brahmans or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view...

"One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view." — MN 117

"When a person has right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration, right knowledge, & right release, whatever bodily deeds he undertakes in line with that view, whatever verbal deeds... whatever mental deeds he undertakes in line with that view, whatever intentions, whatever vows, whatever determinations, whatever fabrications, all lead to what is agreeable, pleasing, charming, profitable, & easeful. Why is that? Because the view is auspicious.

"Just as when a sugar cane seed, a rice grain, or a grape seed is placed in moist soil, whatever nutriment it takes from the soil & the water, all conduces to its sweetness, tastiness, & unalloyed delectability. Why is that? Because the seed is auspicious. In the same way, when a person has right view... right release, whatever bodily deeds he undertakes in line with that view, whatever verbal deeds... whatever mental deeds he undertakes in line with that view, whatever intentions, whatever vows, whatever determinations, whatever fabrications, all lead to what is agreeable, pleasing, charming, profitable, & easeful. Why is that? Because the view is auspicious." — AN 10.104

To develop the conditions for being able to adopt supramundane right view after having developed the complete path and to gain the first glimpse to liberation, one needs to cultivate right view on the mundane level. In its essence however, the same notion is actually used also on the very refined workingplaces on the level of even the highest concentration and to develop them one after another:
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"And how is one made pure in three ways by mental action? There is the case where a certain person is not covetous. He does not covet the belongings of others, thinking, 'O, that what belongs to others would be mine!' He bears no ill will and is not corrupt in the resolves of his heart. [He thinks,] 'May these beings be free from animosity, free from oppression, free from trouble, and may they look after themselves with ease!' He has right view and is not warped in the way he sees things: 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are brahmans & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is how one is made pure in three ways by mental action." — AN 10.176

When this purification of body speach and mind has been done to the highest degree in gaining one actually right concentration, one is able to get a share of right view, that lies behind any effluents of the mind:
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"And what is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening, the path factor of right view of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.   — MN 117


Should one react to wrong view?

The path of the Buddha to peace is all about actions and reactions to situations, right actions and those right actions are not only for ones own welfare but that of all beings, having their possible share of your actions. For one self one needs a strong intention to refuse wrong view and that works on three levels and is an action of more or finer disaffirmation.
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"Bhikkhus, endowed with three things, as lead and lain, is one in hell. What three? One self with wrong view, incites others to develop wrong view and approves wrong view. Bhikkhus, endowed with three things, as lead and lain, is in heaven. What three? One self is right in view, incites others to rectify their view and approves right view."  Quote from: (17) 7. Kammapathapeyyālaṃ, translated by Ven. Sister Uppalavanna
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"Bhikkhus, one possessing four qualities is deposited in hell as if brought there. What four? (1) Without investigating and scrutinizing, one speaks praise of one who deserves dispraise. (2) Without investigating and scrutinizing, one speaks dispraise of one who deserves praise. (3) Without investigating and scrutinizing, one believes a matter that merits suspicion. (4) Without investigating and scrutinizing, one is suspicious about a matter that merits belief. Possessing these four qualities one is deposited in hell as if brought there.  Quote from: Avannaraha Sutta: Dispraise, transl. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi

So being confronted with wrong views, by inwardly or outwardly enemies, should one react? Yes. Since assenting to wrong deeds is actually kamma, and not being there first a mental assenting, such as outwardly perceivable conformation to wrong view is not possible. That also means if outwardly noticeably appearances of wrong view take place, there is no such as right view the precondition. Which of course, if one mentally agrees or disagrees, without giving any verbal of bodily notion at all, has only personal impacts. But since silence and giving notions of appreciation that could be wrong understood by others and others misinterpreting such would follow can cause great impact on a community in small and in large, one should show disagreement if possible, as a sign for others.

Especially if one lives in and from a community, its actually an obligation. Thinking on an extreme: A King or priest watching unrighteousness would not give any statement or react on it. People would take it as acceptance and follow it.

There is a sphere where one has no more obligation to show and thereby help others, that is when one has left society and does no more deal with it. So someone having gone forth has actually no obligation to show such in a community he is no more member, does not live with and from it. BUT when we think on the community of monks, within the community (which is actually the only place where the Buddha gave clear advises how to deal with people of wrong view) there one and the community as a whole has certain duties to "fight off" such appearances for the welfare and lasting of a community and social surrounding supportive for the practice of the path to liberation. Of course such duties are not to be done if one would need to scarify his own required welfare but would have to leave of certain interacting with the community which has fallen into wrong views as the needed effect. So such as martyr-hood does not find place in the Buddha's teachings. Its therefore normal that if the side of wrong view is obviously stronger, that those holding right view would not take on an endless struggle but at least step back and withdraw from both, the duties and the benefits, of a community with wrong view.

As for worldly life, when seeing more and more the dirt and impacts for ones own purity of mind in a live in a community of normal people, is that the most reason to leave the live of a householder and walk if possible into the Holly Life of homelessness under the Buddha. So this two is a reaction of wrong view and in the ideal case conditioned by already gained right view on the level of certain stages of sainthood. Although it is possible to develop the path to its end even if not possible to lead the Holly Life, its visible how much more difficult it is in association and in pertains with people of wrong view and with it, also wrong means of action and livelihood. Having gained lasting right view on the highest level, a livelihood leaded aside of the Holly Life is impossible.

To come back to the duty to react also perceivable to wrong view. Many rules of the Vinaya deal with the problem of wrong view in an individual or with the danger of wrong view poisoning the community. So its certain not a light offence and actions and even should grow to strong "punishments" (they are not direct physical punishments, but can grow to indirect ones, like giving no share on material things, expel form monastery or particular community... for more see BMCII, Disciplinary Transactions ). Holding on wrong views will normally hinder the going forth under the Buddha and a novice, holding on wrong views would be dispelled. That is also the reason why there is certain probation before ordination, if one comes form a different orthodoxy.

And there are many instances, aside of the common believe "just let it be" that the Buddha even urged actions to be taken, when we take for example the story to Dhammapada Verse 77:

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...The Buddha hearing about these bhikkhus sent his two Chief Disciples Sariputta and Maha Moggallana, to stop them from committing further misconduct. To his two Chief Disciples the Buddha said, "Tell those bhikkhus not to destroy the faith and generosity of the lay disciples by misconduct and if anyone should disobey, drive him out of the monastery. Do not hesitate to do as I told you, for only fools dislike being given good advice and being forbidden to do evil."


Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows:

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Verse 77: The man of wisdom should admonish others; he should give advice and should prevent others from doing wrong; such a man is held dear by the good; he is disliked only by the bad.  Quote from: The Story or Bhikkhus Assaji and Punabbasuka


The normal way before giving it to heavy disciplinary translations would be a three times rebuke by his fellows. If somebody does not change his ways, than such actions could take place according to the Vinaya. Strong cross examinations are usual ways to find out more about ones views. Of course all such undertakings are not done out of ill-will and certain factors which have to be in ones mind are necessary for such actions so that positive fruits can be expected. But if somebody rejects to take part on such correction, there is no possible means to force him to anything.

Now the Buddha did not limit the merits of correcting views, like mentioned in Adhammavaggo of AN. On one occasion the devoted lay disciple Anathapindika rebuked a group of wanderer and after having done so, he asked the Buddha is his way and words have been right:
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..."Venerable sirs, whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. Whatever is stress is not me, is not what I am, is not my self. Having seen this well with right discernment as it actually is present, I also discern the higher escape from it as it actually is present."

When this had been said, the wanderers fell silent, abashed, sitting with their shoulders drooping, their heads down, brooding, at a loss for words. Anathapindika the householder, perceiving that the wanderers were silent, abashed... at a loss for words, got up & went to where the Blessed One was staying. On arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, he sat to one side. As he was seated there, he told the Blessed One the entirety of his conversation with the wanderers.

[The Blessed One said:] "Well done, householder. Well done. That is how you should periodically refute those foolish men with the Dhamma." Then he instructed, urged, roused, and encouraged Anathapindika the householder with a talk on Dhamma. When Anathapindika the householder had been instructed, urged, roused and encouraged by the Blessed One with a talk on Dhamma, he got up from his seat and, having bowed down to the Blessed One, left, keeping the Blessed One on his right side. Not long afterward, the Blessed One addressed the monks: "Monks, even a monk who has long penetrated the Dhamma in this Doctrine and Discipline would do well to refute the wanderers of other persuasions with the Dhamma periodically in just the way Anathapindika the householder has done."  Quote from: Ditthi Sutta: Views

Note that the case of wrong view, here in this sutta, would fit also to certain groups who teaches Suttas about the non-arising of phenomena (like the Prajñā-pāramitā  - Perfection von Wisdom Sūtras). So one who has the possibility to objurgate such, and correct things, has actually full support form the Buddha and does it for the welfare of many. But once again, such things should be not done with anger of being personal touched:

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"Therefore, monks, if others insult, abuse, taunt, bother, & harass you as well, you should feel no hatred, no resentment, no dissatisfaction of heart because of that. And if others honor, respect, revere, & venerate you as well, you should feel no joy, no gladness, no elation of heart because of that. And if others honor, respect, revere, & venerate you, you should think, 'They do us such service at this that has already been comprehended.'[1]

1. According to the Commentary, "this" here refers to the five aggregates. As SN 22.23 points out, "comprehension" means the ending of passion, aversion, and delusion with regard to the object comprehended. In other words, the Buddha sees that the honor and respect he receives is aimed at the five aggregates; because he has no passion, aversion, or delusion with regard to those aggregates, he is not overjoyed by any honor paid to them.
Quote from: Alagaddupama Sutta: The Water-Snake Simile


So if certain hatred has been arise and ones defilement argue in this or that way, its good to remember the advice given in the "Aghata Sutta: Hatred ".

One should how ever protect his own right view:
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...Others will misapprehend according to their individual views, hold on to them tenaciously and not easily discard them;[1] we shall not misapprehend according to individual views nor hold on to them tenaciously, but shall discard them with ease — thus effacement can be done...

...The thought should be produced: 'Others will misapprehend according to their individual views, hold on to them tenaciously and not easily discard them; we shall not misapprehend according to individual views nor hold on to them tenaciously, but shall discard them with ease.'...

...A person given to misapprehending according to his individual views, ... non-holding on tenaciously and ease in discarding by which to avoid it...

...A person given to misapprehending according to his individual views, ... non-holding on tenaciously and ease in discarding to lead him upward...

...A person given to misapprehending according to his individual views, ... non-holding on tenaciously and ease in discarding by which to attain the quenching [of them]...

[and the final advice for those having no more other duties:]

"What can be done for his disciples by a Master who seeks their welfare and has compassion and pity on them, that I have done for you, Cunda.[2] There are these roots of trees, there are empty places. Meditate, Cunda, do not delay, lest you later regret it. 'This is my message to you."

1. Comy.: "A single wrong view (or wrong attitude), which is an obstacle for the supramundane qualities and hence does not lead to emancipation, is here described in three aspects:

(a) Others will misapprehend according to their individual views (sanditthi-paramasi). Sub.Comy.: sa(m) = attano, one's own. Paramasi means setting aside the actual nature of a thing, one conceives it differently (sabhavam atikkamitva parato amasana).

(b) Hold on tenaciously (adhanaggahi). Sub. Comy.: adhana = dalha, tight, firm.

(c) Discards not easily. Comy.: "There are those who can discard their views on seeing a convincing reason. But others, even if shown many reasons, cannot give up their views; and of them it is said that they 'do not discard easily.' It refers to those who cling firmly to a subjective view that has occurred to them, believing 'only this is the truth.' Even if the Buddhas or others show them reasons, they do not relinquish their views. Such people, whatever idea they conceive, be it in accordance with Dhamma or not, will say: 'So it has been told by our teacher. So we have learned it'; and they will withdraw into themselves like a turtle drawing its limbs into its shell. They hold on to their views with the tight grip of a crocodile and do not let go."

2. Comy.: "So far goes a compassionate teacher's task namely, the correct exposition of his teaching; that, namely, the practice (according to the teaching; patipatti), is the task of the disciples."


Quote from: Sallekha Sutta: The Discourse on Effacement


By which means should one approach wrong views of others?
Quote
"Not to associate with the foolish, but to associate with the wise; and to honour those who are worthy of honour - this is the greatest blessing.

To reside in a suitable locality, to have done meritorious actions in the past and to set oneself in the right course- this is the greatest blessing.

Quote from: Mahā-Maṅgala-Sutta, explaining by Upasika Nina Van Gorkom

Gaining right view or being within a group of right view, is nothing of which comes by it self and one is wise to value it, protect it and give it reason to arise, seek for such a blessing, which is the first in line of the path to liberation.
So the minimum, after being clear and after having given it a prove that it is actually wrong view or slandering the Buddha, Dhamma, Saṅgha, one should mentality not accept it. Even if such would cause one particular worldly benefits and gains, one should not approve it.

A certain way to express disprove outwardly, aside of rebuke it verbally is to stay silent or to leave a place or discussion. Such subtle disapproving will have results if one associate with wise and attentive people (which is merely seldom). The next step if possible for one (that means that he does not need to fear, or does not fear the lose of certain things) would be a verbal expression, which could start with soft hints till heavy dispraise, according to the situations, his own possibilities and will to scarify of own possessions such as credit as well and mostly.

If one depends on the group or the person who has wrong view, one might seek for other ways, at least to a degree to even leave the certain dependency.

Protect each other of wrong views is for instance one of the duty of a teacher in regard of his disciple as well as for a disciple in regard of his teacher:
Quote
..."If dissatisfaction (with the celibate life) arises in the mentor, one should allay it or get someone else to allay it or one should give him a Dhamma talk. If anxiety (over his conduct with regard to the rules) arises in the mentor, one should dispel it or get someone else to dispel it or one should give him a Dhamma talk. If wrong view arises in the mentor, one should dissuade him or get someone else to dissuade him or one should give him a Dhamma talk....

"If dissatisfaction (with the celibate life) arises in the pupil, the mentor should allay it or get someone else to allay it or he should give him a Dhamma talk. If anxiety [C: over his conduct with regard to the rules] arises in the pupil, the mentor should dispel it or get someone else to dispel it or he should give him a Dhamma talk. If wrong view arises in the pupil, the mentor should dissuade him or get someone else to dissuade him or he should give him a Dhamma talk...

Quote from: Vatta Khandhaka: Collection of Duties


This way of showing compassion is also generally mentioned as one of the task of contemplatives and Brahmans:
Quote
"The ascetics and brahmans thus ministered to as the Zenith by a householder show their compassion towards him in six ways:

(i) they restrain him from evil,
(ii) they persuade him to do good,
(iii) they love him with a kind heart,
(iv) they make him hear what he has not heard,
(v) they clarify what he has already heard,
(vi) they point out the path to a heavenly state.

Quote from: Sigalovada Sutta: The Discourse to Sigala

Against the common view that such as being taught, criticised and rebuked is no proper approach to one in therms of right speech, the wise person does not react with aversion and would not raise such a claim on first place, if his views are criticised and most reliable people are people who live by the means of abstaining from getting involved in societies of wrong view: contemplatives and people who left house. And in accordance to the famous Dhammapada stanza 76:
Quote
Regard him as one who
           points out
           treasure,
the wise one who
seeing your faults
           rebukes you.
Stay with this sort of sage.
For the one who stays
with a sage of this sort,
           things get better,
           not worse.

...people living in households are advised to act in this way and to give every possible condition to keep in touch with right view and its teacher:
Quote
"In five ways, young householder, should a householder minister to ascetics and brahmans as the Zenith:

(i) by lovable deeds,
(ii) by lovable words,
(iii) by lovable thoughts,
(iv) by keeping open house to them,
(v) by supplying their material needs.

The same notion holds for particular Saṅghas within the community of monks in regard of Monks who have gained a bigger amount of right view so that they would benefit form the possible will to stay in this particular community of such people with right view. To act for all conductive conditions to be associated with people of right view and to avoid the engagement with people of wrong view, are the protections for ones own right view and well-being. At least such counts always on particular actions and courses of action and not finally on an idea of good or bad people.

One should, however, not act in bodily harmful ways, neither for one self nor for others. To withdraw one self from a particular community or person, could cause one the lack of life maintaining requirements such as food, clothes, dwelling and medicine at a particular state, when running to fast away from ones own situation unwisely. The same counts for others, if the conditions to even be possible to develop right view are taken form others by treading them in a way they can not further exist under such circumstance, such does not benefit anything. Here the Sutta called "Good companionship and others", below should be wisely considered, to find out what is really needed to keep alive for the gaining of highest wisdom and real support continuing to going on and to practice the path.

Certain harsh treatment ends with verbal declarations, which might be of course hard to bear and with it can cause of course violate reaction. How ever, such reaction must not have their origin in a compassionate rebuke, for one being touched by certain reactions of others. That is something one should bear in mind and consider in every possible directions and from any possible point of view.

So the general assuming: one should put harmony or equanimity higher that righteousness is not right, even especially claimed by those who hold wrong views.

Then the wanderer Potaliya approached the Blessed One and exchanged greetings with him. When they had exchanged greetings and cordial talk, the wanderer Potaliya sat down to one side, and the Blessed One then said to him:
Quote
"Potaliya, there are these four kinds of persons found existing in the world. What four? (1) Here, some person speaks dispraise of someone who deserves dispraise, and the dispraise is accurate, truthful, and timely; but he does not speak praise of someone who deserves praise, though the praise would be accurate, truthful, and timely. (2) Some other person speaks praise of someone who deserves praise, and the praise is accurate, truthful, and timely; but he does not speak dispraise of someone who deserves dispraise, though the dispraise would be accurate, truthful, and timely. (3) Still another person does not speak dispraise of someone who deserves dispraise, though the dispraise would be accurate, truthful, and timely; and he does not speak praise of someone who deserves praise, though the praise would be accurate, truthful, and timely. (4) And still another person speaks dispraise of someone who deserves dispraise, and the dispraise is accurate, truthful, and timely; and he also speaks praise of someone who deserves praise, and the praise is accurate, truthful, and timely. These are the four kinds of persons found existing in the world. Now, Potaliya, which among these four kinds of persons seems to you the most excellent and sublime?"

"There are, Master Gotama, those four kinds of persons found existing in the world. [He repeats all four types, as does the Buddha below. I have omitted the repetition.]

Of those four, the one that seems to me the most excellent and sublime is the one who does not speak dispraise of someone who deserves dispraise, though the dispraise would be accurate, truthful, and timely; and who does not speak praise of someone who deserves praise, though the praise would be accurate, truthful, and timely. For what reason? Because what excels, Master Gotama, is equanimity."

"There are, Potaliya, those four kinds of persons found existing in the world. Of those four, the one that is the most excellent and sublime is the one who speaks dispraise of someone who deserves dispraise, and the dispraise is accurate, truthful, and timely; and who also speaks praise of someone who deserves praise, and the praise is accurate, truthful, and timely. For what reason? Because what excels, Potaliya, is knowledge of the proper time to speak in any particular case.[Abhikkantā h’esā potaliya yadidaṃ tattha tattha kālaññutā. Mp: “It is the nature of the wise, when they have known it is the proper time, to speak dispraise of one who deserves dispraise and to speak praise of one who deserves praise.”]

"There are, Master Gotama, those four kinds of persons found existing in the world. Of those four, the one that seems to me the most excellent and sublime is the one who speaks dispraise of someone who deserves dispraise, and the dispraise is accurate, truthful, and timely; and who also speaks praise of someone who deserves praise, and the praise is accurate, truthful, and timely. For what reason? Because what excels, Master Gotama, is knowledge of the proper time to speak in any particular case.

"Excellent, Master Gotama! Excellent, Master Gotama! Master Gotama has made the Dhamma clear in many ways, as though he were turning upright what had been overthrown, revealing what was hidden, showing the way to one who was lost, or holding up a lamp in the darkness so those with good eyesight can see forms. I now go for refuge to Master Gotama, to the Dhamma, and to the Saṅgha of bhikkhus. Let Master Gotama consider me a lay follower who from today has gone for refuge for life."

Quote from: Potaliya Sutta: Potaliya


One might claim, if not able to bear a rebuke and seeking for a reason to reject it "you do not know the right time", but right time does not mean that it must be the right time that the approached offender would understand it or that the offender could bear it, consider it and even adopt it. And it also does not mean that the approached person is pleased with it. Now, if such would be the case, the Buddha often had spoken at the wrong time since many of his rebukes did at least not perceivable benefit the offender himself, sometime seeming like if even nobody. The right time means that it has benefit for somebody, and if it is more than one or even many, that it is possible visible to see and understand for others, the much better. It certainly would not have any effect, if the spoken does not find ground anywhere as if one would try to teach an animal right view or to shout out his views in the loneliness of a forest. Such modern ways of ineffective ways and speaking at the wrong time, are certain ways of propaganda and giving in wrong deeds and actions while listening the "background music" of Dhamma. In this way the Dhamma even becomes the soundtrack to your unskilled ways and actions. How ever, the very common argument that a certain person does not change his mind means that it was wrong spoken is not correct, as well that personal dislike it not a means of judging well spoken at the first place.

Conclusion

When ever possible one should rebuke and reject wrong view as the most compassionate act and also as a duty with in a certain dependency or community. If not possible to do or if not accepted, one is wisely to let go of certain dependency or community, given that his/here judgement is right, according to the true Dhamma.

So if one encounters notions, behaviour, verbalisations and actions assumed to be rooted on wrong view, one should carefully prove it and compare it with the teachings and even ask reliable and wise people. If there is no doubt, one should first of all reject it mentally for one self and if there is a possibility express such rejections, by what ever possible means that do not violate the basic precepts. Note that the truth weights more that a supported harmony conditioned of wrong view. Is somebody has a certain dependency on a group or a particular person, ones duty is to do anything possible to direct others to right view, and if such is not possible one should seek for ways to leave this dependency and association. At least one does not have a duty to safe and care for what one does not depend on and to gain right view for one self is actually already a the greats help for all other beings. Having made the Dhamma ones own, thereafter are no limits to generosity without the danger to harm one self.

Today, maybe also since a longer time, it's difficult to find a group of people with right view, even among monks and "schools" which are believed to still hold on right views, and communities bending to right view have become very seldom. But one needs to be clear about the fact, that this path is a path of letting go and its is not walk-able with compromises. The desire for having or even creating a community leaded by right view, can be a strong hindrence to gain right view simply for one self with what ever means one already has been gifted. So one has to decide and bear the consequences, which are not so difficult to bear if one has right view of what is worthy to give up:
Quote
Good companionship and others
71. "Bhikkhus, I do not know anything else that arouses non arisen merit and fades arisen demerit as good companionship. Good companions arouse non arisen merit and fades arisen demerit. This is the first.

72. "Bhikkhus, I do not know anything else that arouses non arisen demerit and fades arisen merit as evil companionship. Evil companions arouse non-arisen demerit and fades arisen merit. This is the second.

73. "Bhikkhus, I do not know anything else that arouses non arisen merit and fades arisen demerit as attending to merit and not attending to demerit. Attention to merit and non attention to demerit arouses non arisen merit and fades arisen demerit. This is the third.

74. "Bhikkhus, I do not know anything else that arouses non arisen demerit and fades arisen merit as attending to demerit and not attending to merit. Attention to demerit and non attention to merit arouses non-arisen demerit and fades arisen merit. This is the fourth.

75. "Bhikkhus, I do not know anything else that arouses non arisen enlightenment factors and develops and completes arisen enlightenment factors as wise thinking. Bhikkhus, someone thinking wisely, arouses non-arisen enlightenment factors and develops and completes arisen enlightenment factors. This is the fifth.

76. "Bhikkhus, the misery from the decrease of relations is nothing in comparison to the decrease of wisdom. Bhikkhus, of decreases the decrease in wisdom is miserable. This is the sixth.

77. "Bhikkhus, the increase of relations is nothing in comparison to increase of wisdom. Therefore you should train, we will increase in wisdom. This is the seventh.

78. "Bhikkhus, the misery from the decrease of wealth is nothing in comparison to the decrease of wisdom. Bhikkhus, of decreases the decrease in wisdom is miserable. This is the eighth.

79. "Bhikkhus, the increase of wealth is nothing in comparison to increase of wisdom. Therefore you should train, we will increase in wisdom. This is the ninth.

80. "Bhikkhus, the misery from the decrease of fame is nothing in comparison to the decrease of wisdom. Bhikkhus, of decreases the decrease in wisdom is miserable. This is the tenth."

Quote from: Kalyāṇamittādivaggo: Good companionship and others

Even thought that ones intents and thinks to walk the way of the Bodhisatta, the way is still the same, a way of letting go and giving up and doing honestly one will certainly arrive at the door of Dhamma, the door of going forth and leaving the interact entertained live. Its how ever worthy to remark, that a Bodhisatta can technical never be a person of right view on a transcendent level, so he would be a person who sticks very hard to all elements of mundane right view, and if such a person comes up with justifications by means of supra-mundane view, mostly even to support wrong deeds, that is a clear sign of having even missed the lain coming to the practice of the Noble Ones.

At least my person would like to suggest the reading of the somehow very personal story of Upāsikā Nina Van Gorkom and her blessing to you, explaining the deep meaning of the Mangala Sutta:

Quote from: The Greatest Blessings
Quote
...'Not to associate with the foolish, but to associate with the wise; and to honour those who are worthy of honour' are the first blessings. The last blessings, which are the blessings of the arahat, cannot be attained if one does not have the first blessings. If one does not know the right conditions for enlightenment, nibbāna cannot be realised. There are four conditions for enlightenment, the first of which is, association with the 'righteous person; the second, listening to Dhamma; the third, 'wise consideration' of Dhamma; and the fourth, practising Dhamma (Saṁyutta Nikāya, Mahā-vagga, Kindred Sayings on Stream-winner, Chapter I, par. 5). We cannot hear Dhamma, investigate the truth of it and practise it, unless we have met the right person who can point out to us the way to the Buddha's teachings.

Do we want to associate with foolish people or with wise people? Is it of no use to apply ourselves to mental development if we do not scrutinize ourselves first with regard to this question. We do not inclined to associate with people who have the same ideas and the same likes and dislikes as ourselves. Our inclinations are like elements; they arise by conditions. The same elements attract each other. We read in the 'Niddana-vagga' (Saṁyutta Nikāya, Kindred Saying on Elements, Chapter XIV, par 14):
Quote
"Through an element it is, monks, that beings flow together, meet together. Beings of low tastes flow together, meet together with them of low tastes. They of virtuous tastes flow together, meet together with them of virtuous tastes. So have they done in the past. So will they do in the future. So do they now in the present."

When we are together with someone for a long time we cannot help being influenced by him. If we have foolish friends, who do not know the value of kusalā, who act and speak in an unwholesome way, it is to our detriment. We may not notice that we are under their influence, but gradually we may find ourselves following their ways. If we have friends who know the value of kusalā, who are generous, perform good deeds and speak in a wholesome way, it encourages us to more wholesomeness. The Buddha often pointed out the dangers of evil friendship and the benefit of righteous friendship....

At the end of the line, when one has already crossed the flood, one needs to abound all views and stands (Raft-simile). But such neither means that one would teach non-view nor encourage people to imitate such, since the path is walked in the world, is a conditioned, to reach the unconditioned. Its a common wrong view that liberation of views can be attained by non-view. Only your own discernment, investigation, truthfulness and mostly faith in the good teachings can possible protect you from falling into the trap of sapwood and householder equanimity[1].

1. From the Sutta transater commentar: [present in] A person who is "blind to danger" is one who does not see the drawbacks of sensual pleasure or attachment to the body. For such a person, moments of equanimity are usually a dull spot in the midst of the quest for sensual pleasure. This is why such moments do not go beyond the sensory stimulus that generated them. A person who "has not conquered his limitations or the results of action": this passage seems related to the passage in AN 3.99, which defines a person of limited mind, prey to the results of past bad actions, as one who is "undeveloped in contemplating the body, undeveloped in virtue, undeveloped in concentration, and undeveloped in discernment; restricted, small-hearted, dwelling with suffering." As AN 3.99 points out, such a person suffers more intensely from the results of past unskillful actions than does one whose awareness is unrestricted. SN 42.8 recommends the practice of the four sublime attitudes as a way of developing an unrestricted awareness that weakens the results of past unskillful actions.

Continue...
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 06:22:41 pm by Samana Johann »
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Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Association - How to address wrong view?
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2017, 06:27:54 pm »
Faith and confidence that the gain of right view is possible, is the first notion of right view and is brought into action by basic skillful deeds like to venerate objects that embody right view, serve them and assist as well to give and share ones possessions to support that what is conductive to liberation by gaining liberation at the same time by this action basic actions. Right view is only gained by the means of giving, giving up and letting go of what ever gives rise to a notion of I know, where on actually does not know, have not done yet.

My person will now end this short talk on "How to address wrong view".

[Further discussions and questions as well as critic and improvements are like always welcome. My person pardons also hus bad english an corrections are of course welcome]

Dedication of merits
 
Quote
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa

Puññassidāni katassa
Yānaññāni katāni me
Tesañca bhāgino hontu
Sattānantāppamāṇaka.

May all beings  —  without limit, without end —
   have a share in the merit just now made,
   and in whatever other merit I have made.

Ye piyā guṇavantā ca
Mayhaṃ mātā-pitādayo
Diṭṭhā me cāpyadiṭṭhā vā
Aññe majjhatta-verino;

Those who are dear & kind to me  —
   beginning with my mother & father  —
   whom I have seen or never seen;
   and others, neutral or hostile;

Sattā tiṭṭhanti lokasmiṃ
Te-bhummā catu-yonikā
Pañc'eka-catuvokārā
Saṃsarantā bhavābhave:

Beings established in the cosmos  —
   the three realms, the four modes of birth,
   with five, one, or four aggregates  —
   wandering on from realm to realm:

Ñātaṃ ye pattidānam-me
Anumodantu te sayaṃ
Ye cimaṃ nappajānanti
Devā tesaṃ nivedayuṃ.

If they know of my dedication of merit,
   may they themselves rejoice,
   And if they do not know,
   may the devas inform them.

Mayā dinnāna-puññānaṃ
Anumodana-hetunā
Sabbe sattā sadā hontu
Averā sukha-jīvino

By reason of their rejoicing
   in my gift of merit,
   may all beings always live happily,
   free from animosity.

Khemappadañca pappontu
Tesāsā sijjhataṃ subhā.
[/i]
May they attain the Serene State,
   and their radiant hopes be fulfilled.

Quote
Even though the mind is intangible, it has influence over the body & all things in the world. It is capable of bringing everything in the world under its control. Still, it isn't so vicious or savage as to lack all sense of good & evil. When a person of good intentions trains the mind to enter correctly into the path of the Buddha's teachings, it will be tractable & quick to learn, developing the wisdom to bring the body, which may be behaving without any principles, back into line. In addition, it can cleanse itself to be bright & clean, free from defilements, able to realize by itself truths that are subtle & profound, bringing dazzling light into this world so dark with blindness.

This is because the true substance of the mind has been, from the very beginning, something bright & clear. But because of the preoccupations that have seeped into it and clouded it, the brightness of the mind has been temporarily darkened, making the world dark as well. If the mind were originally dark, there probably wouldn't be anyone able to cleanse it to the point where it could give rise to the light of discernment at all.

So whether the world is to be dark or bright, whether it is to experience well-being or suffering, depends on the mind of each individual. We as individuals should thus first train our own minds well, and then train the minds of others. The world will then be free from turmoil.

—Phra Ajān Thate Desaraṅsī

Quote from: Dedication of merits


Anumodana!

 

Samana Johann, February 2016, Takeo, Cambodia



A very fine collection of Suttas for those seeking advice for best outward conditions can be found in the Study guide "Into the Stream", in regard of assosiation and admirable friends:

Association with People of Integrity
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Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: Association - How to address wrong view?
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2017, 01:33:08 am »
 :nopity: :onfire: :hi:  :pray:

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« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 04:04:59 am by Spiny Norman »

Offline Tyler

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Re: Association - How to address wrong view?
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2017, 04:31:25 am »


Quote

As usual your response is to mock and patronise, and unsurprisingly people here don't want to be "assimilated" into your Borgian nightmare where everyone parrots the same dogma that you do.  Maybe you should move on and preach somewhere else.

https://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fi.stack.imgur.com%2FPuriw.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fscifi.stackexchange.com%2Fquestions%2F93558%2Fwere-the-borg-inspired-by-lord-dread&docid=BqspKiChM389XM&tbnid=XQn9DCQfGsOf2M%3A&vet=10ahUKEwjYqdKj8dPVAhVhJ8AKHb51BEIQMwiEAigFMAU..i&w=394&h=358&bih=799&biw=1600&q=borg%20images&ved=0ahUKEwjYqdKj8dPVAhVhJ8AKHb51BEIQMwiEAigFMAU&iact=mrc&uact=8


Accusing someone else of mocking and patronising and then doing the same thing yourself with images of Borg, doesn't seem a compassionate way forward for someone who presumably thinks they are "a buddhist".





Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: Association - How to address wrong view?
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2017, 04:38:12 am »
Accusing someone else of mocking and patronising and then doing the same thing yourself with images of Borg, doesn't seem a compassionate way forward for someone who presumably thinks they are "a buddhist".

My "compassion" is for the people here that Element ( Vissudhiraptor ) has been insulting and patronising ( basically everyone ).  This is typical behaviour for Element and it has been going on for a very long time - that is why he has been banned from most forums and that is also why my patience with him has grown very thin. 

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Association - How to address wrong view?
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2017, 05:05:54 am »
Nyom Tyler, in somehow this statement is right if there is the will of harming behind or wish that somebody loses something, on the other hand it's compassioned in both directions, the doer and the community, to clearly state wrong doing and try to move one with best means to stop actions which at least harm him. Its also a matter of right view and to show others that such is not right. Of course one needs to have the certain amount of voice to do such effectively, how ever a community and the doer might act further. It's not right that one depending and nourishing on a community does not have a responsibility. Either express or move and give up the nourishment. That is what the topic is about.
Of course if Nyom Norman would be very attached to others and the place and would act out of aversion rather with a wholesome mind, it would be of no benefit. At least, to be clear, harsh needed words are not to be seen as in all cases unskillful.

Maybe try to go deeper into the OP and be sure that it is not proper for one bound and benefiting of a community to do not care about it.

The wise may use such things as practical sample. Of course it does not make sense to become a hunter and fighter for one self. Nature is a hard judge and if no fruits in try to help it's maybe better to switch simplt to metta. No need to fight an "enemy" or save a friend. At least, things do not touch one, if not having done first. Something we should always remember.

My person for example is also banned from many forums, but lesser because having insulted and trolled but simply because interests have been different and being very "conservative" and critical, often to disturbing. Who knows the past history together of beings? In all cases there is no need for dislike and claim of "justice". Things stop sooner or later, if not giving fuel and react as usual.

Anyway, it is sad that certain secular extrimists and people with no faith and refuge in the Gems destruct many possibilities for many. How ever, also to come just accross such has its cause. People with same tendency are bound to each other and meet again and again, where their prefered food is found. Only seldom does one escape. People and associating with them, like food, has strong upanissayapaccayena, strong condition cause.

How ever, if wise use such being touched as mirror and reflect on you own action with are maybe often similar, also why touched of Normans act. Those are all gifts and reminder for the wise, of cause condition for much unskillful kamma for the fool, but there is not much way to help.

This generallication, Nyom Tyler, does it not become absurde in the same way, one could easy say that having acted also the same way if not thinking you might have wanted to keep Norman from falling into the same line.

To catch the topic again. Its in any case not supportive to join a community where unvirtouse behavior and breaking precepts along with wrong view is usuall. There is no chance for one to grow into right view.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 05:35:35 am by Samana Johann »
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Offline Tyler

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Re: Association - How to address wrong view?
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2017, 05:29:14 am »


“If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.

 If you want to be happy, practice compassion.” – Dalai Lama




Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Association - How to address wrong view?
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2017, 05:44:37 am »
So why don't Tyler does not, and harshes people to follow practicing compassion, yet not really knowing what that is, following quotes of a person known as not much teaching right view? Does he act like he says? That is already attachment and claiming, wanting to control others.

And he might not see that he has fallen into the same line, or does he wisely refect his act? Tricky. Already become like people he assosiate. Next he will become aversive and a hunter "in compassion" himself. Just wait a little.

You certainly did not read the OP, prove it and reflect.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 05:48:18 am by Samana Johann »
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Re: Association - How to address wrong view?
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2017, 06:16:05 am »
This pulling people to "equanimity" and/or "compassion" thing as the other active extreme, is something very usuall used under lay teacher and monks living in improper association with lay people, earning also their living with teaching. That was something the Buddha counteracted with rules for the monks in this regard, since such wrong livelihood does autmatical goes on the cost of a pure Dhamma and truth.

There have been people who wanted to revil the Buddha successfully in claiming that he uses wrong speech as well, known as not silent to rebuke harsh, here the story on it and the way he cut of this try of his opponents to win in using Buddhas teachings as weapon against him:

Abhaya Sutta: To Prince Abhaya (On Right Speech)

One will clearly see that most taught under this teacher for a livelihood does not go conform with Buddhas view on preserving right and wrong and that equanimity is not the highest virtue, as shows.

AN 4.100: Potaliya Sutta: Potaliya {A ii 100} [Bodhi]. Here the Buddha points out to an wandering ascetic that alienation and equanimity are not the higherst virtues in regard of praise and blame.

AN 4.83: Avannaraha Sutta - Dispraise {A ii 84} [Bodhi]. Disprais is not good and praise is good; or is even to praise also bad? Both is good and bad: the fail to do as well as to do it.

Its very importand to investigate and seek for knowlegeable and wise people for assistence before praising or blaiming something, someone. Not knowing does not protect against the results.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 06:49:04 am by Samana Johann »
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Re: Association - How to address wrong view?
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2017, 07:04:04 am »
From the commentary and explaining of the famous Highest Blessings: Mangala Suta - Uannana by Ven. K. Gunaratana Thera

Quote
“Many gods and men pondering on the question of blessing could not come to a decision. Therefore O, Lord, may You please tell me what is the greatest Blessing.”


In His reply, The Lord Buddha expounded the “Mangala Sutta,” and thus explained to them that resulting in bliss is as follows:-


Not To Associate With The Unwise Is Most Blissful.

Fools or ignorant people not only injure themselves, but also those around them. If we associate with them, we are apt to follow their ways and so harm ourselves mentally as well as bodily, because all troubles or fear arise from ignorance or foolishness. Even if we do not practise their methods, the mre fact of associating with them will harm our reputation; in the same way that a banana leaf is contaminated if it is used to wrap up a piece of rotten fish or meat. The leaf is dirty and smelly even after the fish or rotten meat is thrown away.


Here is a story to illustrate this:

Once, when the Bodhisat was born as a man called Akitti Pandita, the King of Devas promised to grant him any boon he asked. Akitti Pandita begged that he might never meet, see or talk with fools. The King of Devas was surprised and asked him the reason for this strange request. Replying, he explained that fools or the unwise ones i.e. people who do not understand discipline, always lead their friends to bad ways and teach them to do wrong, because they do not know the right way them selves. If discipline or good ways are spoken in their presence, they become angry, for they cannot understand, they lose their temper and quarrels arise. If discipline or good ways are spoken in their presence, they become angry, for they do not understand them. Therefore he prayed that he might never speak, meet or come in contact with fools.


To Associate With the Wise Is Most Blissful.

By wise men we mean men who are rich with virtuousness and all good deeds and thoughts, i-e- men who bodily abstain from killing, stealing and committing adultery; in their speech they refrain from these vices, are free from craving through ignorance. To associate with these wise ones, is one of the causes of bliss. By doing so we are elevating ourselves. For instance, if we take a piece of dry banana leaf and wrap up some sweet-scented flowers, the leaf is impregnated with the scent even after the flowers are taken away. In the same way, if we associate with the wise ones, i.e. well disciplined and meritorious people, our name will be enhanced.

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Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: Association - How to address wrong view?
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2017, 01:53:58 pm »
Accusing someone else of mocking and patronising and then doing the same thing yourself with images of Borg, doesn't seem a compassionate way forward for someone who presumably thinks they are "a buddhist".

My "compassion" is for the people here that Element ( Vissudhiraptor ) has been insulting and patronising ( basically everyone ).  This is typical behaviour for Element and it has been going on for a very long time - that is why he has been banned from most forums and that is also why my patience with him has grown very thin.

Yes, it is not compassionate to just stand by and make no comment of the abuse and attacks of evildoers doing evil. One must speak out compassionately and defend those who are being attacked and abused relentlessly. Bad behavior should be identified and made clear and apparent and not just turned a blind eye to.

The Buddhists of the past did not just sit around saying "oh let every evil being go around harming, say nothing of it, let evil flourish" but they spoke out and worked against it and its perpetration and explained what is wrong and wrong about it.

Spiny Norman is doing good and creating good by speaking out, by shunning wrong, and VisuddhiRaptor is doing bad and creating bad by trying to insult and ridicule and do whatever they are doing. It will be best if they learn how to stop being abusive towards people in the perpetration of their ideology, otherwise they should be strictly and harshly have a light shown on their conduct, there is nothing wrong with saying to someone who is trying to make everyone conform "That reminds me of the Borg, they wanted everyone to conform to one style or thought", its an apt reference from popular culture which can help people understand VisuddhiRaptor's mentality and what is wrong with it and people like him.

If evil is not fought or resisted, it will just keep on spreading, stands need to be taken, people need to speak out.

Offline ground

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Re: Association - How to address wrong view?
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2017, 09:54:25 pm »
For one who's involved
gets into disputes
over doctrines,
but how — in connection with what —
would you argue
with one uninvolved?
He has nothing embraced or rejected,
has sloughed off every view
right here — every one.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.4.03.than.html

Offline ground

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Re: Association - How to address wrong view?
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2017, 10:08:23 pm »
How is one not involved in views? Through perceiving the emptiness of truth of views directly.
Is emptiness a view?
No because emptiness is empty of truth.

Truth has never existed as anything.

Seeing thus mind-contact ceases.
When mind-contact ceases
innate truth habits (kamma) cease.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 10:12:26 pm by ground »

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Association - How to address wrong view?
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2017, 10:29:40 pm »
Does Ground like to argue about his view or does he feel more confortable if just making a mark?
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