Author Topic: Cycle of rebirth is impossible since there is a beginning  (Read 1341 times)

Offline bahman

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Cycle of rebirth is impossible since there is a beginning
« on: April 19, 2017, 12:33:11 pm »
 Here we first argue that there is a beginning and then argue that the cycle of rebirth is impossible.

 1) There is a beginning: Lets assume that there is no beginning. This means that time spans to eternal past. This however means that it takes forever to reach from eternal past to now which this is practically impossible to achieve. Therefore time has a beginning or there is a beginning.

 2) There is no cycle of rebirth: Lets assume that there is a cycle of rebirth. This means that any individual undergoes different sort life in eternal future and eternal past. We however showed that there is a beginning. Therefore the cycle of rebirth is an wrong concept because time cannot spans to eternal past (there is a beginning).

Offline Solodris

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Re: Cycle of rebirth is impossible since there is a beginning
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2017, 04:42:25 am »
If there is a beginning and an end that means they're connected by cosmological relativity, hence cycle of rebirth.

This puts high importance on Buddha's teaching of unbinding and release from these ignorant fabrications of clinging to the view of the self. Beginning is a fabrication of the mind, ending is a fabrication of the mind, both clinging to the notion of unknown past, known present and unknown future. In neuroscience we call this memories in a nervous system.

Offline bahman

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Re: Cycle of rebirth is impossible since there is a beginning
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2017, 10:06:33 am »
If there is a beginning and an end that means they're connected by cosmological relativity, hence cycle of rebirth.

 There is a beginning but no end. Cosmos is expanding very quickly.

This puts high importance on Buddha's teaching of unbinding and release from these ignorant fabrications of clinging to the view of the self. Beginning is a fabrication of the mind, ending is a fabrication of the mind, both clinging to the notion of unknown past, known present and unknown future. In neuroscience we call this memories in a nervous system.

 Time is not fabrication of mind.

Offline Solodris

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Re: Cycle of rebirth is impossible since there is a beginning
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2017, 10:57:02 am »
There is a beginning but no end. Cosmos is expanding very quickly.


Where is the beginning?

http://sciencequestionswithsurprisinganswers.org/2016/01/20/where-is-the-edge-of-the-universe/
http://www.space.com/33005-where-is-the-universes-edge-op-ed.html

How is the "cosmos" expanding?

"From our perspective, it looks like we're at the center of everything, and every single galaxy is flying away from us."

Despite this, science does not support a geocentric or heliocentric model. For all we know there are either clusters of galaxies more dense or simply bigger than the observable universe surrounding our small visible "neighborhood".

Time is not fabrication of mind.


You're saying you're not experiencing time?

From a Buddhist standpoint, phenomena are co-dependent on a subjective receiver and an objective transmitter to remain in existence. Correct me if I'm wrong.

It seems the collective processes of the cosmos interacting with our nervous system, puts itself in our memory and prioritizes next input. Without mind, there is no time. What we distinguish as time is a stream of patterns, that was logically reasoned by society to take the name-&-form of "time". Come to think about it, it would make sense to make it a completely etymological fabrication that arises and ceases with the mind as languages are being invented and becoming extinct, I would be interested to know if there are any ancient languages that didn't even have a word equivalent to time. At least that's what I currently think.

Offline bahman

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Re: Cycle of rebirth is impossible since there is a beginning
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2017, 12:19:16 pm »
There is a beginning but no end. Cosmos is expanding very quickly.


Where is the beginning?

http://sciencequestionswithsurprisinganswers.org/2016/01/20/where-is-the-edge-of-the-universe/
http://www.space.com/33005-where-is-the-universes-edge-op-ed.html

How is the "cosmos" expanding?

"From our perspective, it looks like we're at the center of everything, and every single galaxy is flying away from us."

Despite this, science does not support a geocentric or heliocentric model. For all we know there are either clusters of galaxies more dense or simply bigger than the observable universe surrounding our small visible "neighborhood".


 There is an argument against eternal universe: Lets assume that time is eternal. This means that time spans from eternal past to eternal future. By fact, it is practically impossible to reach from eternal past to now. Therefore time has a beginning.

Time is not fabrication of mind.


You're saying you're not experiencing time?

From a Buddhist standpoint, phenomena are co-dependent on a subjective receiver and an objective transmitter to remain in existence. Correct me if I'm wrong.

It seems the collective processes of the cosmos interacting with our nervous system, puts itself in our memory and prioritizes next input. Without mind, there is no time. What we distinguish as time is a stream of patterns, that was logically reasoned by society to take the name-&-form of "time". Come to think about it, it would make sense to make it a completely etymological fabrication that arises and ceases with the mind as languages are being invented and becoming extinct, I would be interested to know if there are any ancient languages that didn't even have a word equivalent to time. At least that's what I currently think.


 Time exists, otherwise a mind can find an answer to all questions in an instant. It is something weird.

 By the way why you don't believe in mind?
« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 12:39:52 pm by bahman »

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Cycle of rebirth is impossible since there is a beginning
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2017, 12:41:39 pm »
Buddha taught that there were no beginnings and no ends only endless cycles.

Current scientific understanding assumes a big bang due to expanding space, but this only means that there is a beginning to this universe not to all of the other universes, which are now thought to be infinite.
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But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline bahman

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Re: Cycle of rebirth is impossible since there is a beginning
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2017, 01:33:43 pm »
Buddha taught that there were no beginnings and no ends only endless cycles.

Current scientific understanding assumes a big bang due to expanding space, but this only means that there is a beginning to this universe not to all of the other universes, which are now thought to be infinite.

 He was wrong. The endless cycle of universe is logically impossible. There is an argument against cyclic universe: Lets assume that universe is cyclic. This means that cycles spans from eternal past to eternal future. By fact, it is practically impossible to reach from eternal past to now. Therefore the cyclic picture of universe is logically impossible.

Offline Solodris

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Re: Cycle of rebirth is impossible since there is a beginning
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2017, 01:56:01 pm »
By the way why you don't believe in mind?

As part of my Buddhist practice, the notion of ego dissolves once you experience less suffering coming to understand that compassion and the teaching of no-self (anatta) are very directly connected to unbinding and release.

He was wrong. The endless cycle of universe is logically impossible. There is an argument against cyclic universe: Lets assume that universe is cyclic. This means that cycles spans from eternal past to eternal future. By fact, it is practically impossible to reach from eternal past to now. Therefore the cyclic picture of universe is logically impossible.

Unless time itself is really cyclical, very much like the experience of this conversation. You seem very dear to your views, so I will respect you enough to have them.

Have a nice day.

Offline bahman

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Re: Cycle of rebirth is impossible since there is a beginning
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2017, 02:42:23 pm »
By the way why you don't believe in mind?
As part of my Buddhist practice, the notion of ego dissolves once you experience less suffering coming to understand that compassion and the teaching of no-self (anatta) are very directly connected to unbinding and release.

 So you are a perturbation of a specific substance in the void. You need to show that consciousness is possible without mind.

He was wrong. The endless cycle of universe is logically impossible. There is an argument against cyclic universe: Lets assume that universe is cyclic. This means that cycles spans from eternal past to eternal future. By fact, it is practically impossible to reach from eternal past to now. Therefore the cyclic picture of universe is logically impossible.

Unless time itself is really cyclical, very much like the experience of this conversation. You seem very dear to your views, so I will respect you enough to have them.

Have a nice day.

 Give a number to each cycle increasingly. You will realize that you are dealing with an infinity again. You cannot practically reach from the cycle in in minus infinity to any cycle with finite number therefore cyclic universe is impossible.

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Cycle of rebirth is impossible since there is a beginning
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2017, 03:18:30 pm »
Quote
He was wrong. The endless cycle of universe is logically impossible. There is an argument against cyclic universe: Lets assume that universe is cyclic. This means that cycles spans from eternal past to eternal future. By fact, it is practically impossible to reach from eternal past to now. Therefore the cyclic picture of universe is logically impossible.

What you do not realize is that you exist in only this one of infinite numbers of universes.  These arise, dwell for but a time (infinite though it may be) and then pass away.  Your problem is with the definition of infinite.  This does not mean unending, it means that it exists for an uncountable time period before it passes away.

The other thing you don't understand is the concept of time.  Time does not exist by itself, it is but one intersection (dimension) of Space-Time.  Study Einstein's theory of Special Relativity:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime



The other issue you don't understand is that "space" is not "empty"  particles arise apparently from nothing as do antiparticles and they anhialate each other all the time.  Therefore, from nothing comes something all the time.  Just so, science now believes that universes arise the same way and eventually (over uncountable time periods) pass away.  This is cyclic.
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline bahman

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Re: Cycle of rebirth is impossible since there is a beginning
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2017, 03:42:19 pm »
What you do not realize is that you exist in only this one of infinite numbers of universes.  These arise, dwell for but a time (infinite though it may be) and then pass away.  Your problem is with the definition of infinite.  This does not mean unending, it means that it exists for an uncountable time period before it passes away.

 This (bold part) means that counting uncountable entity, infinity, is practically impossible therefore it cannot happen in reality.

The other thing you don't understand is the concept of time.  Time does not exist by itself, it is but one intersection (dimension) of Space-Time.  Study Einstein's theory of Special Relativity:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime



 Thanks I know that. Any physical theory in the proper perspective provide the evolution of a system in term of time.

The other issue you don't understand is that "space" is not "empty"  particles arise apparently from nothing as do antiparticles and they anhialate each other all the time.  Therefore, from nothing comes something all the time.  Just so, science now believes that universes arise the same way and eventually (over uncountable time periods) pass away.  This is cyclic.

 What is cyclic?

Offline Solodris

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Re: Cycle of rebirth is impossible since there is a beginning
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2017, 03:45:38 pm »
So you are a perturbation of a specific substance in the void. You need to show that consciousness is possible without mind.

I do not possess enough empirical data to prove to myself that you possess the same property or "dimension" that I experience as consciousness. This means there is mind without consciousness, depending on the perspective. If mind is independent of consciousness, I can also assign myself as having the property of having a mind, but not necessarily accept your definition of having a consciousness, as I might define that as being fabricated. Can you show me that mind is possible without consciousness?

During some field research once I acquired the necessary tools to go to the plane of existence known by the name of Unconscious beings (Asaññasatta). I'm not sure it qualifies but the tools to get there was me ingesting ethyl-alcohol, then I was reborn in my bed.

Give a number to each cycle increasingly. You will realize that you are dealing with an infinity again. You cannot practically reach from the cycle in in minus infinity to any cycle with finite number therefore cyclic universe is impossible.

Okay. I was going to leave respectfully but since you insist:

Cyclic existence 1: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
Cyclic existence 2: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
Cyclic existence 2 ends at the beginning of cyclic existence 1.

There we seem to have a complete cycle of existence presented by me, in this universe.

Offline bahman

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Re: Cycle of rebirth is impossible since there is a beginning
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2017, 04:01:14 pm »
So you are a perturbation of a specific substance in the void. You need to show that consciousness is possible without mind.

I do not possess enough empirical data to prove to myself that you possess the same property or "dimension" that I experience as consciousness. This means there is mind without consciousness, depending on the perspective. If mind is independent of consciousness, I can also assign myself as having the property of having a mind, but not necessarily accept your definition of having a consciousness, as I might define that as being fabricated. Can you show me that mind is possible without consciousness?

 Mind is meaningless without consciousness. Mind by definition is a irreducible substance which can experience, decide and act.

During some field research once I acquired the necessary tools to go to the plane of existence known by the name of Unconscious beings (Asaññasatta). I'm not sure it qualifies but the tools to get there was me ingesting ethyl-alcohol, then I was reborn in my bed.

 Interesting.

Give a number to each cycle increasingly. You will realize that you are dealing with an infinity again. You cannot practically reach from the cycle in in minus infinity to any cycle with finite number therefore cyclic universe is impossible.

Okay. I was going to leave respectfully but since you insist:

Cyclic existence 1: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
Cyclic existence 2: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
Cyclic existence 2 ends at the beginning of cyclic existence 1.

There we seem to have a complete cycle of existence presented by me, in this universe.

 I don't understand your example. Could you please elaborate?

Offline Solodris

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Re: Cycle of rebirth is impossible since there is a beginning
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2017, 06:52:09 pm »
Mind is meaningless without consciousness. Mind by definition is a irreducible substance which can experience, decide and act.

I respectfully disagree.

I don't understand your example. Could you please elaborate?

Do you know what a circle is? Go to an empty street with no traffic, draw a circle on the ground that expands to about 2 meters or 8 feet in diameter and stand anywhere on the line. Start walking in any direction on the line, count as much as you want. That is a cyclic existence.

If you want to expand your existence just draw a new circle that connects with the old one, then walk along both of them.

Offline stillpointdancer

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Re: Cycle of rebirth is impossible since there is a beginning
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2017, 03:32:15 am »
Interesting arguments. Particles do arise from nothing, but not no thing. There must be conditions for them to arise, even if you bring it down to the startup conditions of our particular universe. Brane theory suggests how our universe can appear to arise spontaneously, but there must be conditions for it to happen. The Buddhist view seems to point in the same direction, that all things arise on condition. Life cycles are still cycles, even though generations die, the next arises on condition of the last, which is a good way for me to view rebirth.
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