Author Topic: Cycle of rebirth is impossible since there is a beginning  (Read 1703 times)

Offline bahman

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Re: Cycle of rebirth is impossible since there is a beginning
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2017, 08:57:21 am »
Mind is meaningless without consciousness. Mind by definition is a irreducible substance which can experience, decide and act.

I respectfully disagree.

 What do you disagree? Why do you disagree?

I don't understand your example. Could you please elaborate?

Do you know what a circle is? Go to an empty street with no traffic, draw a circle on the ground that expands to about 2 meters or 8 feet in diameter and stand anywhere on the line. Start walking in any direction on the line, count as much as you want. That is a cyclic existence.

If you want to expand your existence just draw a new circle that connects with the old one, then walk along both of them.

 Thanks. I understand that but that does not resolve the problem I am raising. Lets think of a set C where C={C1, C2, ..., Cn}. Each Ci is the duration of life in cycle "i" and C1 is the first cycle. What I am arguing is that this set has to have finite elements otherwise we are dealing with a infinite set which in practice we cannot experience all cycles because it takes forever.

Offline Solodris

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Re: Cycle of rebirth is impossible since there is a beginning
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2017, 09:22:36 am »
What do you disagree? Why do you disagree?

The collective arising of genetic memories with the formation of earth makes the consciousness fabricated to be assigned to a false sense of self. This phenomena is experienced by every being, hence it is not only your or my consciousness.

Thanks. I understand that but that does not resolve the problem I am raising. Lets think of a set C where C={C1, C2, ..., Cn}. Each Ci is the duration of life in cycle "i" and C1 is the first cycle. What I am arguing is that this set has to have finite elements otherwise we are dealing with a infinite set which in practice we cannot experience all cycles because it takes forever.

Those are constructions of the mind. The mind does not flow through cyclic existence forever in a permanent form. Without constructions of mathematics there is only arising and ceasing, through cyclical existence, that can remain in orbit with itself or other cyclic existences to differentiate the phenomena of the different universes. This universe has the narrow-minded, run-of-the-mill perspective on cyclic behavior as, for example: Going to work, getting depressed about finding no importance or purpose in it, coming home, log on to the internet, get collective validation. This is a rush, a high, for a person that goes through the cycle of depression, so he comes back to work, longing for validation on the computer. Where there is a constructed, alter-ego, that represents his self, much like this mind does but doesn't satisfy him enough to unbind him from samsara.

I just came back from conducting research on other forums. Psychological research, people with anxiety join a group with other people with anxiety. And they validate their own purpose and value online, then when they leave the computer, they gather things they can release into the community and get acknowledged for. Pretty insane behavior right? Well, it's ingrained in the entirety of humanity. I tried negative reinforcement treatment against self-destructive behaviors among patients with depression. They can basically resort to defend their right in debate making the point that they deserve to live, just to win an argument, yet they say they do not want to live. Samsara is just stupid through this perspective, they asked how you would explain an anxiety disorder to someone who has never experienced anxiety-related issues, and I was thinking about writing down some sort of Divine Revelation to see if both groups got scared but I refrained.

Offline bahman

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Re: Cycle of rebirth is impossible since there is a beginning
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2017, 10:15:52 am »
What do you disagree? Why do you disagree?

The collective arising of genetic memories with the formation of earth makes the consciousness fabricated to be assigned to a false sense of self. This phenomena is experienced by every being, hence it is not only your or my consciousness.

 How our experiences could be personal if there is no self?
 
Thanks. I understand that but that does not resolve the problem I am raising. Lets think of a set C where C={C1, C2, ..., Cn}. Each Ci is the duration of life in cycle "i" and C1 is the first cycle. What I am arguing is that this set has to have finite elements otherwise we are dealing with a infinite set which in practice we cannot experience all cycles because it takes forever.

Those are constructions of the mind. The mind does not flow through cyclic existence forever in a permanent form. Without constructions of mathematics there is only arising and ceasing, through cyclical existence, that can remain in orbit with itself or other cyclic existences to differentiate the phenomena of the different universes. This universe has the narrow-minded, run-of-the-mill perspective on cyclic behavior as, for example: Going to work, getting depressed about finding no importance or purpose in it, coming home, log on to the internet, get collective validation. This is a rush, a high, for a person that goes through the cycle of depression, so he comes back to work, longing for validation on the computer. Where there is a constructed, alter-ego, that represents his self, much like this mind does but doesn't satisfy him enough to unbind him from samsara.

I just came back from conducting research on other forums. Psychological research, people with anxiety join a group with other people with anxiety. And they validate their own purpose and value online, then when they leave the computer, they gather things they can release into the community and get acknowledged for. Pretty insane behavior right? Well, it's ingrained in the entirety of humanity. I tried negative reinforcement treatment against self-destructive behaviors among patients with depression. They can basically resort to defend their right in debate making the point that they deserve to live, just to win an argument, yet they say they do not want to live. Samsara is just stupid through this perspective, they asked how you would explain an anxiety disorder to someone who has never experienced anxiety-related issues, and I was thinking about writing down some sort of Divine Revelation to see if both groups got scared but I refrained.

 I think you didn't understand my argument.

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Cycle of rebirth is impossible since there is a beginning
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2017, 01:01:08 pm »
Quote
bahman:   What is cyclic?

Cyclic in the Buddhist context means that it arises, dwells for a time and then passes away.

Cyclic in a mathematical context means that it oscillates in value as so:   increases in value, then decreases in value (not necessarily the same value), etc. and etc. and then eventually stops, or it may continue on infinitely varying in value.

Cyclic in biological context means that happens periodically.  Example menstrual cycle.

Cyclic in Astronomical context means that it follows an elliptical period through space-time.  Example:  The Earth and seven other planets rotate around the sun traveling through space time.
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline bahman

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Re: Cycle of rebirth is impossible since there is a beginning
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2017, 12:28:58 pm »
Quote
bahman:   What is cyclic?


Cyclic in the Buddhist context means that it arises, dwells for a time and then passes away.


Cyclic in a mathematical context means that it oscillates in value as so:   increases in value, then decreases in value (not necessarily the same value), etc. and etc. and then eventually stops, or it may continue on infinitely varying in value.

Cyclic in biological context means that happens periodically.  Example menstrual cycle.

Cyclic in Astronomical context means that it follows an elliptical period through space-time.  Example:  The Earth and seven other planets rotate around the sun traveling through space time.

 That is a bad translation.

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Cycle of rebirth is impossible since there is a beginning
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2017, 03:31:44 pm »
Quote
bahman: " That is a bad translation."


Who said it was a translation?  If it was a translation, of what language are you looking for a translation?

If you have a better translation, tell us what you have found.  Please quote your source.

This is what The Buddha said as translated from Pali (the orginal language of The Buddha):
Quote
[The Buddha:]

Over and over, the seeds all get planted;
Over and over, the rain-god sprinkles rain.
Over and over, the farmer farms the field;
Over and over, the food grows in the realm.

Over and over, beggars do their begging;
Over and over, the givers give out gifts.
Over and over, the giver who has given;
Over and over, goes to a better place.

Over and over, he tires and he struggles;
Over and over, the fool goes to the womb.
Over and over, he's born and he dies;
Over and over, they bear him to his grave.

But one who's wisdom is wide as the earth
Is not born over and over,
For he's gained the path
Of not becoming over again.


source:  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn07/sn07.012.olen.html



What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline IdleChater

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Re: Cycle of rebirth is impossible since there is a beginning
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2017, 07:52:49 am »
Quote
bahman:   What is cyclic?


Cyclic in the Buddhist context means that it arises, dwells for a time and then passes away.


Cyclic in a mathematical context means that it oscillates in value as so:   increases in value, then decreases in value (not necessarily the same value), etc. and etc. and then eventually stops, or it may continue on infinitely varying in value.

Cyclic in biological context means that happens periodically.  Example menstrual cycle.

Cyclic in Astronomical context means that it follows an elliptical period through space-time.  Example:  The Earth and seven other planets rotate around the sun traveling through space time.

 That is a bad translation.

I always martvel at that sort of statement.  No one here, no one, is really qualified to say what is a good translation or a bad one.  The truth is we, here, have absolutely no idea if the translations we read are good or not.  We tend to find a source and stick to it.  Oftentimes, we stick to it blindly, simply trusting that source is reliable, based on reputation or some other imputed value.

I was sitting in a lecture with a noted and reputable translator from Naropa.  She stated that in some text(s) what we call the "4 Noble Truths" and "Noble 8-fold Path are translated as the "4 Truths of the Noble Ones" and "8-Fold Path of the Noble Ones.  Noble Ones, here, refers to the Buddhas of the 3 times and 10 directions.  With that wording, it puts those 2 concepts in a much different context.  However, when I've tried to share that, with others online, it falls flat.  It does this because people cling to to what they trust, regardless of whether that trust is deserved.  They don't even want to talk about the distictions that arise.

I also think some people like certain online sources because it's easier to copy/paste than it is to transcribe ;-)

Offline Pixie

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Re: Cycle of rebirth is impossible since there is a beginning
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2017, 08:04:29 am »
.

Sutta MN63  might be helpful for this topic. Here's an excerpt:

Quote

(The Buddha said)

So, Malunkyaputta, remember what is undeclared by me as undeclared, and what is declared by me as declared.

 And what is undeclared by me? 'The cosmos is eternal,' is undeclared by me. 'The cosmos is not eternal,' is undeclared by me. 'The cosmos is finite'... 'The cosmos is infinite'... 'The soul & the body are the same'... 'The soul is one thing and the body another'... 'After death a Tathagata exists'... 'After death a Tathagata does not exist'... 'After death a Tathagata both exists & does not exist'... 'After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist,' is undeclared by me.

"And why are they undeclared by me? Because they are not connected with the goal, are not fundamental to the holy life. They do not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, Unbinding. That's why they are undeclared by me.

"And what is declared by me? 'This is stress,' is declared by me. 'This is the origination of stress,' is declared by me. 'This is the cessation of stress,' is declared by me. 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress,' is declared by me. And why are they declared by me? Because they are connected with the goal, are fundamental to the holy life. They lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, Unbinding. That's why they are declared by me.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.063.than.html




This thread may also be of interest in connection with the subject of rebirth:

"Exploring Rebirth in the Pali Suttas" (3 pages):

https://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries.com/showthread.php?6671-Exploring-rebirth-in-the-Pali-suttas




_/|\_

« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 08:21:06 am by Pixie »
May all beings have happiness and the causes of happiness.
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May they never be deprived of true happiness devoid of any suffering.
May they abide in great impartiality, free from attachment to loved ones and aversion to others.

Offline stillpointdancer

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Re: Cycle of rebirth is impossible since there is a beginning
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2017, 02:26:18 am »
The problem with translations is getting the subtle nuances of the language translated, as well as individual words which have no equivalent in English- how could they? Some of the best discussions group sessions at the Buddhist center looked at three or four translations of the same thing and talk around the similarities and differences, and what they could mean. Lacking such a group now, the thing I do is to get different translations and try to do the same by myself. I may not get to the 'right' translation that way, but at least I've looked at different possibilities.
“You do not need to leave your room. Remain sitting at your table and listen. Do not even listen, simply wait, be quiet, still and solitary. The world will freely offer itself to you to be unmasked, it has no choice, it will roll in ecstasy at your feet.” Franz Kafka

Offline bahman

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Re: Cycle of rebirth is impossible since there is a beginning
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2017, 05:51:47 am »
Quote
bahman: " That is a bad translation."


Who said it was a translation?  If it was a translation, of what language are you looking for a translation?

If you have a better translation, tell us what you have found.  Please quote your source.

This is what The Buddha said as translated from Pali (the orginal language of The Buddha):
Quote
[The Buddha:]

Over and over, the seeds all get planted;
Over and over, the rain-god sprinkles rain.
Over and over, the farmer farms the field;
Over and over, the food grows in the realm.

Over and over, beggars do their begging;
Over and over, the givers give out gifts.
Over and over, the giver who has given;
Over and over, goes to a better place.

Over and over, he tires and he struggles;
Over and over, the fool goes to the womb.
Over and over, he's born and he dies;
Over and over, they bear him to his grave.

But one who's wisdom is wide as the earth
Is not born over and over,
For he's gained the path
Of not becoming over again.


source:  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn07/sn07.012.olen.html



 There are a couple of problem in here: (1) We know most of what you quote from Buddha by fact except the rebirth. (2) What is the meaning of rebirth in Buddhism? (3) What you said (Cyclic in the Buddhist context means that it arises, dwells for a time and then passes away.) is not really a cycle of rebirth. It is a cycle from dust to dust.

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Cycle of rebirth is impossible since there is a beginning
« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2017, 09:08:50 pm »
Hi, bahman.

I understand your doubts.  If what you think is true, then how do you interpret the words:
Quote
..."Over and over,"...?
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline chowkit74

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Re: Cycle of rebirth is impossible since there is a beginning
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2017, 03:06:05 am »
Understanding the Cycle of Dependent Origination

Balance leads to stability.  Stability leads to aggregation.  Aggregation leads to agitation.  Agitation leads to information.  Information leads to knowledge. Knowledge leads to representation.  Representation leads to memory.  Memory leads to compulsion.  Compulsion leads to ignorance.  Ignorance leads to blindness.  Blindness leads to disorientation.  Disorientation leads to confusion. Confusion leads to irrationality.  Irrationality leads to impulse.  Impulse leads to sparkling.  Sparkling leads to inkling.  Inkling leads to volition.  Volition leads to awareness.  Awareness leads to consciousness.  Consciousness leads to manas.  Manas leads to mind and body.  Mind and body lead to sensation. Sensation leads to six sense bases.  Six sense bases lead to conductivity. Conductivity leads to contact.  Contact leads to stimulation.  Stimulation leads to feeling.  Feeling leads to experience.  Experience leads to craving.  Craving leads to grasping.  Grasping leads to clinging.  Clinging leads to unsettling. Unsettling leads to becoming.  Becoming leads to creation.  Creation leads to birth.  Birth leads to energising.  Energising leads to mobility.  Mobility leads to hauling.  Hauling leads to aging.  Aging leads to draining.  Draining leads to death.  Death leads to fragility.  Fragility leads to segregation.  Segregation leads to diffusion.  Diffusion leads to imbalance.  Imbalance leads to adjustment.  Adjustment leads to alignment.  Alignment leads to new balance.

Cause  =  Effect                                              

Cause 1 conjures up Effect 1,                       
Effect 1 conjures up Cause 1-1,   
Cause 1-1 conjures up Effect 1-2,
Effect 1-2 conjures up Cause 1-2,               
.., etc.

The Coffee in a Cup

Let’s say Coffee Original is one of the special brewed drinks: -

300ml     hot liquid water       
70%       coffee powder           =>      100% Coffee Original in cup Jumbo
30%       condensed milk                   

Supposedly, the cup Jumbo has broken apart by accident and the content has splattered around i.e.

30%        onto the table,
40%        onto the floor,
5%          onto the wall,
10%        onto the drain,
5%          vaporised into thin air,
10%        remained in the broken cup.

A cleaner took up a rag and wiped off the remaining liquid coffee in sequential order starting from the table, the floor and then the wall.  In a repeated gesture, the cleaner squeezed off the wet rag and the remaining coffee liquid flowed into three separate cups i.e.

Cup 1       80% already filled with tea liquid mixture.
Cup 2       90% already filled with mocha liquid mixture.
Cup 3       55% already filled with mineral water.

Let’s say 300ml of properties is a benchmark for a qualified special brewed drink. The cleaner then filled up the respective cup rooms with liquids deriving from the rag that are by and large the remaining of Coffee Original deriving from the table, the floor and the wall.  In this case, the respective 300ml of liquids in Cup 1, Cup 2 and Cup 3 is dependent on the Coffee Original before a new special brewed drink is made possible.  However, this does not mean that Coffee Original is the only dependent source or ingredient.  Respectively, Cup 1, Cup 2 and Cup 3 would need to depend upon many other sustaining factors as well such as the already partially filled liquids and new cups before qualifying as special brewed drinks.

As a conclusion, the new liquid mixture arising in Cup 1, Cup 2 and Cup 3 is neither identical to, nor entirely different from, the old coffee liquid, but forms part of a causal continuum or stream with it.  There is a conditioned relationship between one liquid and the next; it is not identical but neither is it completely distinct.  The beauty of nature is that it allows all sorts of activities taking place such as aggregation, segregation, evolution, mutation, assimilation, etc.  As a consequence, every existence would not be totally the same or different from each other.  We are all closely inter-depending, inter-waving and inter-relating with one another since the dawn of time in a very comprehensive and complicated network of existence – just like the Christian believes that all mankind derived from Adam and Eve.  Lastly, one should not confuse the ‘non-self’ with ‘no-self’ and the ‘non-eternal soul’ with ‘no-soul.’  Buddhism sees in the existence of self or soul but only in a manner of non-ownership or impermanency i.e. there is an influx of self or soul but not the one-off static kind of self or soul.




Offline chowkit74

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Re: Cycle of rebirth is impossible since there is a beginning
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2017, 03:12:22 am »
No Reincarnation, only Rebirth

Buddhism rejects the term ‘transmigration’ or ‘reincarnation’ altogether, but why?  Literally, ‘trans-’ is a prefix meaning through or across.  And transmigration denotes the movement or conveyance from place to place.  If we mention that a soul would transmigrate from a body to another new body, it means the same ‘unchanging’ soul does the movement or conveyance throughout the time stream (past, present and future). 

However, in a conventional reality, no ‘unchanging’ soul would transmigrate from one body to another and on this pretext, Buddhism upholds the term ‘rebirth’ or ‘re-arising.’  The Buddha sees in no transmigration of all things or matters but instead, in the constant and continuous transformation of all things or matters via the process of permeation (diffusion).  Just like the orientation of energy in the cosmos i.e. energy would only transform - to transform is to change, to change is to become, and to become is to reborn.  So energy is ever ‘reborn’ all the time in the dependent nature.  By understanding well and observing thoroughly into the characteristics of energy, one could gain insight into the nature and its orientation.

In the case of rebirth, an individual soul does not migrate from a physical body into another one.  No, it just won’t fit at all.  Every individual or thing that exists would not be the same - it could only be in a similar condition e.g. twins are similar but never the same individuals (likewise, no two minds are the same).  Every individual is unique respectively and no individuals would be the same even though they do share some sort of the same genes before time.  For example, you may have heard in various stories whereby a spirit or ghost has the ability to possess into the body of an individual but it never absolutely overtakes the soul of the possessed individual.  This is because one cannot simply exchange the soul at one’s whim and fancy.  Even individuals with the most powerful magic charm could not perform this feat.  Another example will be the human organ transplant cases, whereby the new recipients need to take immunosuppressive drugs to treat any transplant rejections – live long.

In Buddhism, rebirth refers to evolving consciousness or stream of consciousness of a person (upon death) and the new consciousness arising in the same person (in the new person) is neither identical to, nor entirely different from, the old consciousness, but forms part of a causal continuum or stream with it.  The basic cause for this persistent re-arising of personality is the abiding of consciousness in ignorance; when ignorance is uprooted, rebirth ceases.  For example, a flame is transferred from one candle to another, or a fire spreads from one field to another.  In the same way that it depends on the original fire, there is a conditioned relationship between one life and the next; they are not identical but neither are they completely distinct.

And it is possible for rebirth to take place from a single source into different identities at any various point of time, just like how the genetic lineage works for generations.  This is how we explain the destiny of being siblings, being life partners, being close friends in one’s lifetime.  Somehow or somewhere before time, the so-called relevant individuals are inherited from the similar sources of predecessor.  Thus in the present lifetime one has the opportunity to meet and know with the relevant beings and not the other non-relevant beings (as per the law of attraction). 

Ultimately, it is the wonder of nature that every created object or thing is neither identical to, nor entirely different from each other.  This is how the conventional reality works i.e. not in-linear but in inter-dependence, inter-woven and inter-relation since the dawn of time in a very comprehensive and complicated network of existence.  At the end of the day, the inter-connectedness of all things or matters in the nature is what the principle of emptiness is all about - as per the teachings of the Buddha.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 03:14:36 am by chowkit74 »

Offline bahman

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Re: Cycle of rebirth is impossible since there is a beginning
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2017, 10:48:10 am »
Hi, bahman.

I understand your doubts.  If what you think is true, then how do you interpret the words:
Quote
..."Over and over,"...?

 Without a self things is over upon death therefore there is no "Over and over". The person who suffer in the next life because of your karma is not you.

Offline bahman

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Re: Cycle of rebirth is impossible since there is a beginning
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2017, 11:40:40 am »

Understanding the Cycle of Dependent Origination


Balance leads to stability.  Stability leads to aggregation.  Aggregation leads to agitation.  Agitation leads to information.  Information leads to knowledge. Knowledge leads to representation.  Representation leads to memory.  Memory leads to compulsion.  Compulsion leads to ignorance.  Ignorance leads to blindness.  Blindness leads to disorientation.  Disorientation leads to confusion. Confusion leads to irrationality.  Irrationality leads to impulse.  Impulse leads to sparkling.  Sparkling leads to inkling.  Inkling leads to volition.  Volition leads to awareness.  Awareness leads to consciousness.  Consciousness leads to manas.  Manas leads to mind and body.  Mind and body lead to sensation. Sensation leads to six sense bases.  Six sense bases lead to conductivity. Conductivity leads to contact.  Contact leads to stimulation.  Stimulation leads to feeling.  Feeling leads to experience.  Experience leads to craving.  Craving leads to grasping.  Grasping leads to clinging.  Clinging leads to unsettling. Unsettling leads to becoming.  Becoming leads to creation.  Creation leads to birth.  Birth leads to energising.  Energising leads to mobility.  Mobility leads to hauling.  Hauling leads to aging.  Aging leads to draining.  Draining leads to death.  Death leads to fragility.  Fragility leads to segregation.  Segregation leads to diffusion.  Diffusion leads to imbalance.  Imbalance leads to adjustment.  Adjustment leads to alignment.  Alignment leads to new balance.

 This is how I understand birth, here. Death is simpler. It is simply decay. So you understand consciousness, feeling, and all other things that you describe above including death if we understand birth. SO in simple word I don't agree with the cycle.


Cause  =  Effect
                                             

Cause 1 conjures up Effect 1,                       
Effect 1 conjures up Cause 1-1,   
Cause 1-1 conjures up Effect 1-2,
Effect 1-2 conjures up Cause 1-2,               
.., etc.

 I am afraid that I cannot follow you. Could you please elaborate?


The Coffee in a Cup


Let’s say Coffee Original is one of the special brewed drinks: -

300ml     hot liquid water       
70%       coffee powder           =>      100% Coffee Original in cup Jumbo
30%       condensed milk                   

Supposedly, the cup Jumbo has broken apart by accident and the content has splattered around i.e.

30%        onto the table,
40%        onto the floor,
5%          onto the wall,
10%        onto the drain,
5%          vaporised into thin air,
10%        remained in the broken cup.

A cleaner took up a rag and wiped off the remaining liquid coffee in sequential order starting from the table, the floor and then the wall.  In a repeated gesture, the cleaner squeezed off the wet rag and the remaining coffee liquid flowed into three separate cups i.e.

Cup 1       80% already filled with tea liquid mixture.
Cup 2       90% already filled with mocha liquid mixture.
Cup 3       55% already filled with mineral water.

Let’s say 300ml of properties is a benchmark for a qualified special brewed drink. The cleaner then filled up the respective cup rooms with liquids deriving from the rag that are by and large the remaining of Coffee Original deriving from the table, the floor and the wall.  In this case, the respective 300ml of liquids in Cup 1, Cup 2 and Cup 3 is dependent on the Coffee Original before a new special brewed drink is made possible.  However, this does not mean that Coffee Original is the only dependent source or ingredient.  Respectively, Cup 1, Cup 2 and Cup 3 would need to depend upon many other sustaining factors as well such as the already partially filled liquids and new cups before qualifying as special brewed drinks.

As a conclusion, the new liquid mixture arising in Cup 1, Cup 2 and Cup 3 is neither identical to, nor entirely different from, the old coffee liquid, but forms part of a causal continuum or stream with it.  There is a conditioned relationship between one liquid and the next; it is not identical but neither is it completely distinct.  The beauty of nature is that it allows all sorts of activities taking place such as aggregation, segregation, evolution, mutation, assimilation, etc.  As a consequence, every existence would not be totally the same or different from each other.  We are all closely inter-depending, inter-waving and inter-relating with one another since the dawn of time in a very comprehensive and complicated network of existence – just like the Christian believes that all mankind derived from Adam and Eve. 

 To my understanding all we have are elementary particles which interact with each other. We could have different type of phases or behaviors in matter depending on circumstances (bold part). I don't believe on conditional relationship as a intrinsic relation.

Lastly, one should not confuse the ‘non-self’ with ‘no-self’ and the ‘non-eternal soul’ with ‘no-soul.’  Buddhism sees in the existence of self or soul but only in a manner of non-ownership or impermanency i.e. there is an influx of self or soul but not the one-off static kind of self or soul.

 I cannot follow you here. Could you please elaborate?

 


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