Author Topic: Dana (Generosity, Charity) "Abhidhamma in daily life "  (Read 577 times)

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Dana (Generosity, Charity) "Abhidhamma in daily life "
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2017, 08:12:21 am »
Generosity plain and simple is the act of generating methods of practice that fits into the modern life.
So what does one actually give, expecting that if fits to ones ideas and desire to live a modern (run-a-mill-mans prevered, majority disighned) live, Solodris? Maybe reminding that generosity is not something which is ordinary and rare. Something that fits to ones ideas and desires, is seldom in the sphere of generosity and would even more seldom go against the grain of greed.

Faith and clarity.
In what? Modern live and ones ideas and desire in it? My person does not think that Solodris likes to keep it here so open, or does he?

Giving is something being always do, all the time, but simply just for their modern live and for outwardly gain with it.

The more we give up old wisdom, skillful, that what is praised by the wise, the more modern becomes world and life. Willing to sacrify all for modern live and pleasure with it, even the whole earth.

Maybe it's good to let you discuss this topic with the given further with your friends and community here, and give the space to do such, draw back here a little. Let it be known, if wished, if external imput could help.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 08:21:27 am by Samana Johann »
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Offline Solodris

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Re: Dana (Generosity, Charity) "Abhidhamma in daily life "
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2017, 09:29:15 am »
*deleted*
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 12:17:55 pm by Solodris, Reason: Irrelevant »

Offline francis

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Re: Dana (Generosity, Charity) "Abhidhamma in daily life "
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2017, 06:11:32 pm »
Then, Francis, let me ask you, just to know if Francis knows what he is talking about:

Has Fancis give wife, children, home, rightous, with own effort gained goid wealth, his companies, cars, friends, honor, name, skills, his kingdom and nationality, what ever possessing, without expecting anything, not even kept an opening for anyone to get anything back? Then, while having given all aside of just one bag, left all signs of an householder behind, living on alms, giving steady to poor even richer, and gifts in proper time, skill, time what ever is just in need? Then, after having given everything, just having a given almsbowl and a piece of garment left, giving even the householders comfortable clothes, letting verything behind, after having seen that all what this world lacks of is conviction and those who could seriously give? Has Francis experiance of the parami Dana in all it's aspects, knowing mind in regard it's dark places in regard of outwardly things, from all possible aspects? Is he after having done the gross and fine task, step by step, without rolling back, penetrated and knowing each of this, only than able to give, with nothing to expect.

It's actually, based on right view not really difficult at all. So is it to talk on things one actually does really not know, but builds on ideas.

It is not wrong to share ones merits, not at all, can be given without expecting anything, or to inspire, invite to rejoice and possible see that it is possible not just antik talk. Of course, one can be not well be asked for such, and then turning to householder-equanimity, rejecting the request, dwell again holding on all ones possession, stingy and in householder-equanimity?

So let others know of your skills and possessions, share them like one possessing the treasure of generosity. It will then also easier to talk, after Francis has serious reflected what he can give in this case. Not only because others would know more of what he talks about, when encouraging others to practise, even such having done this task already to an end.

Having become even one no more obligated, rightously, one no  more in need to doing Dana, yet if giving what can really possessed, one still judges of what and whom, how and when to give.

Francis here given possibility.


Hi Samana Johann,

I’ve attempted to explain dana, sorry it doesn’t measure up. Nevertheless, I will leave you with another definition.

The Ten Perfections of Theravada Buddhism

01. Perfection of Giving (Dana)

‘When giving, or generosity, is perfected, it is selfless. There is no measure of gaining or losing. There are no strings attached and no expectations of thanks or reciprocation. The giving is gratifying in and of itself, and there is no hint of reluctance or loss to the act of giving.

Giving in this unencumbered way loosens the grip of greed and helps to develop non-attachment. Such giving also develops virtue and leads naturally to the next perfection, morality (sila).’

:namaste:
"Enlightenment, for a wave in the ocean, is the moment the wave realises it is water." - Thich Nhat Hanh

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Dana (Generosity, Charity) "Abhidhamma in daily life "
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2017, 11:08:03 pm »
Perfect, not different, Fancis, the work of a person, with right view. Maybe Francis sees also here, in this interpretation, that nobody of this tradition would advice to do Dana without judgement.
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Offline Solodris

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Re: Dana (Generosity, Charity) "Abhidhamma in daily life "
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2017, 09:38:01 pm »
*deleted*
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 12:16:45 pm by Solodris, Reason: Irrelevant »

Offline francis

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Re: Dana (Generosity, Charity) "Abhidhamma in daily life "
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2017, 09:39:01 pm »
Perfect, not different, Fancis, the work of a person, with right view. Maybe Francis sees also here, in this interpretation, that nobody of this tradition would advice to do Dana without judgement.


Hi there Samana Johann,

Instead of saying dana is giving without judgement, it might have been better to say dana is giving impartially.

For example,

‘Attachment cannot exist at the same time as generosity. When one is truly generous one gives impartially and does not restrict one's generosity to people one likes or to the members of one's family'  Dana The Practice of Giving.

:namaste:
"Enlightenment, for a wave in the ocean, is the moment the wave realises it is water." - Thich Nhat Hanh

Offline Solodris

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Re: Dana (Generosity, Charity) "Abhidhamma in daily life "
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2017, 10:31:26 pm »
A practice in non-attachment seem to really touch the heart of compassion.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 12:15:41 pm by Solodris »

Offline Solodris

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Re: Dana (Generosity, Charity) "Abhidhamma in daily life "
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2017, 12:00:15 am »
A lesson in Dana by a moment of temporary confusion, very fulfilling.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 05:02:47 pm by Solodris »

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Dana (Generosity, Charity) "Abhidhamma in daily life "
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2017, 05:18:42 pm »
Perfect, not different, Fancis, the work of a person, with right view. Maybe Francis sees also here, in this interpretation, that nobody of this tradition would advice to do Dana without judgement.


Hi there Samana Johann,

Instead of saying dana is giving without judgement, it might have been better to say dana is giving impartially.

For example,

‘Attachment cannot exist at the same time as generosity. When one is truly generous one gives impartially and does not restrict one's generosity to people one likes or to the members of one's family'  Dana The Practice of Giving.

:namaste:

Francis, although it's popular and modern to count on a (householder)-equanimity approach, the teachings on giving of the Buddha do not display such. It's because one places ones joy in giving at the right place that one performes fruitful giving.

Quote
Issattha Sutta: Archery Skills


"In a herd of cattle,
   whether black, white,
   ruddy, brown,
   dappled, uniform,
   or pigeon gray:
if a bull is born  —
   tame, enduring,
   consummate in strength,
   & swift  —
people yoke him to burdens,
regardless of his color.
In the same way,
wherever one is born
among human beings  —
   noble warriors, brahmans,
   merchants, workers,
   outcastes, or scavengers  —
if one is tame, with good practices,
righteous, consummate in virtue,
a speaker of truth, with conscience at heart,
   one
who's abandoned     birth & death,
completed   the holy life
put down    the burden,
done    the task
   fermentation-free,
gone beyond     all dhammas,
through lack of clinging    unbound:

   offerings to this spotless field
   bear an abundance of fruit.

But fools, unknowing,
dull,   uninformed,
give gifts outside
and don't come near the good.
While those who do come near the good
   —  regarded as enlightened,
      wise  —
whose trust in the One Well-gone
   has taken root,
   is established & firm:
they go to the world of the devas
or are reborn here in good family.
   Step by step
   they reach
   Unbinding
      : they
      who are wise."


One should also not forget, that even oneself is not much ensnared, the receiver could be strongly, which has also its effects. So its the wise way to follow the timely giving.

As soon one gives outside the proper time, one increases boundage and debts into the world.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 05:21:43 pm by Samana Johann »
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Offline Solodris

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Re: Dana (Generosity, Charity) "Abhidhamma in daily life "
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2017, 05:33:23 pm »
I will be sure to keep more in touch with equanimity.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 09:45:47 pm by Solodris »

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Dana (Generosity, Charity) "Abhidhamma in daily life "
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2017, 09:53:12 pm »
Because it is a perfect tool for excuse not only ones duty but also to aviod to give what one can not identify as one own. It needs a lot of self honesty and training to penetrate ones gross defilements.
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Offline francis

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Re: Dana (Generosity, Charity) "Abhidhamma in daily life "
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2017, 02:32:34 am »
Hi there Samana Johann,

Francis, although it's popular and modern to count on a (householder)-equanimity approach, the teachings on giving of the Buddha do not display such. It's because one places ones joy in giving at the right place that one performes fruitful giving.

I never said dana should not bring joy.

Issattha Sutta: Archery Skills SN 3.24
In a herd of cattle,
whether black, white,
ruddy, brown,
dappled, uniform,
or pigeon gray: ….

I was not familiar with the sutta, so I looked it up. It appears to be a rebuttal to accusations that the Buddha said gifts should only be given to him and his followers, and not to others.

One should also not forget, that even oneself is not much ensnared, the receiver could be strongly, which has also its effects. So its the wise way to follow the timely giving.

As soon one gives outside the proper time, one increases boundage and debts into the world.

I’m letting that one go through to the keeper.

Because it is a perfect tool for excuse not only ones duty but also to aviod to give what one can not identify as one own. It needs a lot of self honesty and training to penetrate ones gross defilements.

I think that argument goes both ways. Dana should not be used as an excuse to intimidate people into giving. If you think about it honestly, it’s not in the spirit of dana. 

 :namaste:
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 02:59:30 am by francis »
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Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Dana (Generosity, Charity) "Abhidhamma in daily life "
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2017, 04:37:55 pm »
Generisity is not something inherent in a person, but trained. In SEAsia, once children can walk they are taught and after a while they have a lot of joy: blessed. Much more then the "blessed" children waiting greedy on S. Claus.

Hi there Samana Johann,

Francis, although it's popular and modern to count on a (householder)-equanimity approach, the teachings on giving of the Buddha do not display such. It's because one places ones joy in giving at the right place that one performes fruitful giving.


I never said dana should not bring joy.

My person either. Read again. If joy is put on the right place (worthy to be given, it will bear much fruits.
Issattha Sutta: Archery Skills SN 3.24
In a herd of cattle,
whether black, white,
ruddy, brown,
dappled, uniform,
or pigeon gray: ….


I was not familiar with the sutta, so I looked it up. It appears to be a rebuttal to accusations that the Buddha said gifts should only be given to him and his followers, and not to others.

Actually in relevance to gain much benefit from it, he told many many times. He might have lighten a certain view but he did not cheat people in regard of truth, by a "everything is great" account.
One should also not forget, that even oneself is not much ensnared, the receiver could be strongly, which has also its effects. So its the wise way to follow the timely giving.

As soon one gives outside the proper time, one increases boundage and debts into the world.


I’m letting that one go through to the keeper.

Because it is a perfect tool for excuse not only ones duty but also to aviod to give what one can not identify as one own. It needs a lot of self honesty and training to penetrate ones gross defilements.


I think that argument goes both ways. Dana should not be used as an excuse to intimidate people into giving. If you think about it honestly, it’s not in the spirit of dana. 

 :namaste:


That's a typical modern approach. If having the notion that it was suggest by wiser, not the own idea, it does not taste, how ever clear and right it might be. It descripes a person who practices for one self and others, encouraging to generosity. One not able taking good advices is hardily able to be generous, like all of his practice it's merely an ego-trip based on own ideas. There is much to overcome if then stick what the Buddha suggeset, that's where the training happens, if it goes against the grain. Now latest their this equanimity approach has an end. Why? Because it was just a tool for excuse, Francis.

Quote
Iti §75

This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "These three types of persons can be found existing in the world. Which three? One like a cloud without rain, one who rains locally, and one who rains everywhere.

"And how is a person like a cloud without rain? There is the case where a person is not a giver of food, drink, clothing, vehicles, garlands, scents, ointments, beds, dwellings, or lights to any brahmans or contemplatives, to any of the miserable, the homeless, or beggars. This is how a person is like a cloud without rain.

"And how is a person one who rains locally? There is the case where a person is a giver of food, drink, clothing, vehicles, garlands, scents, ointments, beds, dwellings, & lights to some brahmans & contemplatives, to some of the miserable, the homeless, & beggars, and not to others. This is how a person one who rains locally.

"And how is a person one who rains everywhere? There is the case where a person gives food, drink, clothing, vehicles, garlands, scents, ointments, beds, dwellings, & lights to all brahmans & contemplatives, to all of the miserable, the homeless, & beggars. This is how a person one who rains everywhere.

"These are the three types of persons who can be found existing in the world."

Not to contemplatives,
to brahmans,
to the miserable,
nor to the homeless
does he share what he's gained:
   food,
   drinks,
   nourishment.
He, that lowest of people,
   is called a cloud with no rain.

To some he gives,
to others he doesn't:
   the intelligent call him
   one who rains locally.

A person responsive to requests,
sympathetic to all beings,
delighting in distributing alms:
   "Give to them!
   Give!"
   he says.
As a cloud — resounding, thundering — rains,
   filling with water, drenching
   the plateaus & gullies:
      a person like this
      is like that.
Having rightly amassed
wealth attained through initiative,
he satisfies fully with food & drink
those fallen into
the homeless state.

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Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Dana (Generosity, Charity) "Abhidhamma in daily life "
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2017, 04:51:40 pm »
Here also a Sutta, that shows that the receiver factor is not a later development:

Quote
Dana Sutta: Giving

On one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. And on that occasion the lay woman Velukandaki, Nanda's mother, had established a donation endowed with six factors for the community of monks headed by Sariputta & Moggallana. The Blessed One saw with his divine eye, surpassing the human, that the laywoman Velukandaki, Nanda's mother, had established a donation endowed with six factors for the community of monks headed by Sariputta & Moggallana. On seeing this, he addressed the monks: "Monks, the lay woman Velukandaki, Nanda's mother, has established a donation endowed with six factors for the community of monks headed by Sariputta & Moggallana.

"And how is a donation endowed with six factors? There is the case where there are the three factors of the donor, the three factors of the recipients.

"And which are the three factors of the donor? There is the case where the donor, before giving, is glad; while giving, his/her mind is bright & clear; and after giving is gratified. These are the three factors of the donor.

"And which are the three factors of the recipients? There is the case where the recipients are free of passion or are practicing for the subduing of passion; free of aversion or practicing for the subduing of aversion; and free of delusion or practicing for the subduing of delusion. These are the three factors of the recipients.

"Such are the three factors of the donor, the three factors of the recipients. And this is how a donation is endowed with six factors.

"And it is not easy to take the measure of the merit of a donation thus endowed with six factors as 'just this much a bonanza of merit, a bonanza of what is skillful — a nutriment of bliss, heavenly, resulting in bliss, leading to heaven — that leads to what is desirable, pleasing, charming, beneficial, pleasant.' It is simply reckoned as a great mass of merit, incalculable, immeasurable.[4]

"Just as it is not easy to take the measure of the great ocean as 'just this many buckets of water, just this many hundreds of buckets of water, just this many thousands of buckets of water, or just this many hundreds of thousands of buckets of water.' It is simply reckoned as a great mass of water, incalculable, immeasurable. In the same way, it is not easy to take the measure of the merit of a donation thus endowed with six factors as 'just this much a bonanza of merit, a bonanza of what is skillful — a nutriment of bliss, heavenly, resulting in bliss, leading to heaven — that leads to what is desirable, pleasing, charming, beneficial, pleasant.' It is simply reckoned as a great mass of merit, incalculable, immeasurable."

Before giving, glad;
while giving, the mind is bright & clear;
having given, one is gratified:
   This is the consummation of the sacrifice.
Free of passion, free of aversion,
free of delusion, without fermentation:
   the consummation of the field of the sacrifice,
   one restrained, leading the holy life.[5]
Having rinsed oneself,
having given with one's own hands,
   then — because of oneself,
   because of the other —[6]
that is a sacrifice yielding great fruit.
Having given thus
   — intelligent —
a person of conviction,
with awareness released,
   reappears
   — wise —
in a world of bliss
   unalloyed.

 4.    See Dhp 195-196 .
 5.    The Thai edition puts this sentence in the singular form, as translated here. The PTS and Burmese editions put it in the plural.
 6.    In other words, because one is possessed of the three factors of the donor, and the other — the recipient — is possessed of the three factors of the recipient.
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Offline francis

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Re: Dana (Generosity, Charity) "Abhidhamma in daily life "
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2017, 05:10:03 am »
That's a typical modern approach. If having the notion that it was suggest by wiser, not the own idea, it does not taste, how ever clear and right it might be. It descripes a person who practices for one self and others, encouraging to generosity. One not able taking good advices is hardily able to be generous, like all of his practice it's merely an ego-trip based on own ideas. There is much to overcome if then stick what the Buddha suggeset, that's where the training happens, if it goes against the grain. Now latest their this equanimity approach has an end. Why? Because it was just a tool for excuse, Francis.

Hi Samana Johann,

Thanks, I have refined my meaning of dana since starting this conversation to - giving impartially without expecting something in return.  I’m not sure why you disagree with this understanding.  It’s certainly doesn’t imply stinginess or selfishness or ego.  Nor is it meant to discourage or excuse people from giving, after all tithing is a well-established practice in almost all religions. It’s just, I get a little jaded when people continually roll out dana to pressure people into giving, which is not in the spirit of dana. Now, this might seem a little radical, but I’m throwing it out there. Modern would be if monks started growing their own food, and stopped burdening householders. If you don’t agree, than ask yourself why Buddhism died out in India?
"Enlightenment, for a wave in the ocean, is the moment the wave realises it is water." - Thich Nhat Hanh

 


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