Author Topic: Did Buddha know?  (Read 362 times)

Offline bahman

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Did Buddha know?
« on: May 04, 2017, 11:40:26 am »
 Did Buddha know why meditation is effective and useful in finding the truth?

Offline loopix

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Re: Did Buddha know?
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2017, 01:28:54 pm »
he was born and grew up in a predominantly hindu society. and since hinduism also practices meditation, my guess would be: yes.

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Did Buddha know?
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2017, 03:41:51 am »
Did Buddha know why meditation is effective and useful in finding the truth?


Thought it might be worthwhile to readdress the original post: Buddha addressed:  " The Truths (reality) of suffering as detailed here:

 
Quote
Breaking free

"Bhikkhus, it is through not realizing, through not penetrating the Four Noble Truths that this long course of birth and death has been passed through and undergone by me as well as by you. What are these four? They are the noble truth of dukkha; the noble truth of the origin of dukkha; the noble truth of the cessation of dukkha; and the noble truth of the way to the cessation of dukkha. But now, bhikkhus, that these have been realized and penetrated, cut off is the craving for existence, destroyed is that which leads to renewed becoming, and there is no fresh becoming."

— DN 16 (with dukkha left untranslated)
  source:  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/

Buddha goes on to explain how he arrived at this understanding:
Quote
[The Buddha speaks of his Awakening:]

"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of stress'... 'This noble truth of stress is to be comprehended'... 'This noble truth of stress has been comprehended'...

"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of the origination of stress'... 'This noble truth of the origination of stress is to be abandoned'... 'This noble truth of the origination of stress has been abandoned.'

"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of the cessation of stress'... 'This noble truth of the cessation of stress is to be directly experienced'... 'This noble truth of the cessation of stress has been directly experienced.'

"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress'... 'This noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress is to be developed'... 'This noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress has been developed.'

"And, monks, as long as this knowledge & vision of mine — with its three rounds & twelve permutations concerning these four noble truths as they actually are present — was not pure, I did not claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & brahmans, its royalty & commonfolk. But as soon as this knowledge & vision of mine — with its three rounds & twelve permutations concerning these four noble truths as they actually are present — was truly pure, then I did claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its devas, Maras & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & brahmans, its royalty & commonfolk. Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'"

— SN 56.11
  source:  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Online IdleChater

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Re: Did Buddha know?
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2017, 08:50:17 am »
Did Buddha know why meditation is effective and useful in finding the truth?


Thought it might be worthwhile to readdress the original post: Buddha addressed:  " The Truths (reality) of suffering as detailed here:

 
Quote
Breaking free

"Bhikkhus, it is through not realizing, through not penetrating the Four Noble Truths that this long course of birth and death has been passed through and undergone by me as well as by you. What are these four? They are the noble truth of dukkha; the noble truth of the origin of dukkha; the noble truth of the cessation of dukkha; and the noble truth of the way to the cessation of dukkha. But now, bhikkhus, that these have been realized and penetrated, cut off is the craving for existence, destroyed is that which leads to renewed becoming, and there is no fresh becoming."

— DN 16 (with dukkha left untranslated)
  source:  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/

Buddha goes on to explain how he arrived at this understanding:
Quote
[The Buddha speaks of his Awakening:]

"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of stress'... 'This noble truth of stress is to be comprehended'... 'This noble truth of stress has been comprehended'...

"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of the origination of stress'... 'This noble truth of the origination of stress is to be abandoned'... 'This noble truth of the origination of stress has been abandoned.'

"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of the cessation of stress'... 'This noble truth of the cessation of stress is to be directly experienced'... 'This noble truth of the cessation of stress has been directly experienced.'

"Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress'... 'This noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress is to be developed'... 'This noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress has been developed.'

"And, monks, as long as this knowledge & vision of mine — with its three rounds & twelve permutations concerning these four noble truths as they actually are present — was not pure, I did not claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & brahmans, its royalty & commonfolk. But as soon as this knowledge & vision of mine — with its three rounds & twelve permutations concerning these four noble truths as they actually are present — was truly pure, then I did claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its devas, Maras & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & brahmans, its royalty & commonfolk. Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'"

— SN 56.11
  source:  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/


I assume you proved this as factual.  How did you ascertain that?

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Did Buddha know?
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2017, 05:32:34 pm »
Quote
Idle Chater:  "I assume you proved this as factual.  How did you ascertain that?"

Not yet.  Still working on the experiment.  How are you doing? :listen:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Online IdleChater

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Re: Did Buddha know?
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2017, 05:46:40 pm »
Quote
Idle Chater:  "I assume you proved this as factual.  How did you ascertain that?"

Not yet.

Figures  :tap:

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Did Buddha know?
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2017, 05:28:28 am »
Quote
Idle Chater:  "I assume you proved this as factual.  How did you ascertain that?"

Not yet.

Figures  :tap:

Be patient, Idle C.  Remember that Buddha was reborn over and over through many life-times and in many forms as a bodhisatta, before he attained unbinding and release...(according to the Jataka Tales).

Don't forget where you and I are along our paths:

Quote
An ocean of tears
"Which is greater, the tears you have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — or the water in the four great oceans?... This is the greater: the tears you have shed...

"Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a mother. The tears you have shed over the death of a mother while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — are greater than the water in the four great oceans.

"Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a father... the death of a brother... the death of a sister... the death of a son... the death of a daughter... loss with regard to relatives... loss with regard to wealth... loss with regard to disease. The tears you have shed over loss with regard to disease while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — are greater than the water in the four great oceans.

"Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries — enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released."

— SN 15.3



Scientific Buddhism is rigorous, and requires at least as much effort, if not more, because we must make certain that what we do can be verified by others in order for it to be truly "scientific".  Look how difficult it was for all those scientists working together for so many generations to discover the sources of disease.  As you and Zafrogzen are fond of saying,  "When frustrated and anxious, when you want it now!:  Just sit!"   We must be willing to continue to study the suttas / sutras, and to listen to our gurus and masters, with the hope that we will hear / learn / penetrate the one word, which will finally set us on the right path.

If we approach the path scientifically, or through faith, does it truly matter so long as we all meet at the pinnacle  of attainment?   :grouphug:
« Last Edit: May 15, 2017, 06:04:27 am by Ron-the-Elder »
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Online IdleChater

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Re: Did Buddha know?
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2017, 06:26:41 am »

Be patient, Idle C.  Remember that Buddha was reborn over and over through many life-times and in many forms as a bodhisatta, before he attained unbinding and release...(according to the Jataka Tales).

And I suppose you've determined this to be factual - that ....

Quote
that Buddha was reborn over and over through many life-times and in many forms as a bodhisatta


I find it puzzling that you'll go to such rigorous lengths to "prove" the Buddha teaching when he gave you 4 simple criteria by which to evaluate his teachings.

Quote
Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over; nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, 'The monk is our teacher.' Kalamas, when you yourselves know: 'These things are good; these things are not blamable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,' enter on and abide in them.

And I still think you should refer to your little ...... whatever it is ...... as Scientific Theraveda because you will most certainly ignore all of the Mahayana teaching, IOW, 2/3 thirds of "Buddhism".

Online IdleChater

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Re: Did Buddha know?
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2017, 06:40:19 am »
he was born and grew up in a predominantly hindu society. and since hinduism also practices meditation, my guess would be: yes.

Interesting suggestion.

I was sitting in a teaching one evening and the teacher was telling the story of the Buddha's enlightenment.  He told us that when he went to sit under the Bodhi Tree, chose to use a form of meditation he learned as a child.

Interesting .....

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Did Buddha know?
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2017, 07:53:12 am »
Quote
Idle Chater:  "And I still think you should refer to your little ...... whatever it is ...... as Scientific Theraveda because you will most certainly ignore all of the Mahayana teaching, IOW, 2/3 thirds of "Buddhism"."

Your assumption that I ignore it is fallacious.  As I reported in another thread, I recently watched an entire documentary of several documentaries regarding the life, practices, and teaching of HHDL, who is a member (like you) of The Mahayana.  I also have done the same with Bob Thurman (Dr. Thurman), Pema Chondron, and Tich Nhat Hahn, who are all practicing members of The Mahayana. 

I choose not to quote Mahayana literature, because I am not an expert, nor a life-long practitioner of it like yourself and they are.  Perhaps in my next rebirth I will feel more confident with the topic.

In the mean time I will stick with my "little vehicle" as you have chosen to ride around in your "greater vehicle".

Perhaps we should both be satisfied that we have vehicles and aren't still walking around the earth on our bare feet in total ignorance.   :wink1:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline francis

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Re: Did Buddha know?
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2017, 07:56:39 am »
he was born and grew up in a predominantly hindu society. and since hinduism also practices meditation, my guess would be: yes.

Interesting suggestion.

I was sitting in a teaching one evening and the teacher was telling the story of the Buddha's enlightenment.  He told us that when he went to sit under the Bodhi Tree, chose to use a form of meditation he learned as a child.

Interesting .....

Interesting indeed, but it’s more than likely that the historic Buddha came from a Sramanic rather than a Brahmanic background.

“Indian culture is consisted of two main trends:  Sramanic and Brahmanic.  The Vedic traditions come under the Brahmanic trend. The Sramanic trend covers the Jain, Buddhist and similar other ascetic traditions.  The Brahmanic schools accepts the authority of the Vedas and Vedic literature.  The Jains and Buddhists have their own canons and canonical literature” (Jain History).
"Enlightenment, for a wave in the ocean, is the moment the wave realises it is water." - Thich Nhat Hanh

Online IdleChater

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Re: Did Buddha know?
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2017, 08:14:15 am »
he was born and grew up in a predominantly hindu society. and since hinduism also practices meditation, my guess would be: yes.

Interesting suggestion.

I was sitting in a teaching one evening and the teacher was telling the story of the Buddha's enlightenment.  He told us that when he went to sit under the Bodhi Tree, chose to use a form of meditation he learned as a child.

Interesting .....

Interesting indeed, but it’s more than likely that the historic Buddha came from a Sramanic rather than a Brahmanic background.

“Indian culture is consisted of two main trends:  Sramanic and Brahmanic.  The Vedic traditions come under the Brahmanic trend. The Sramanic trend covers the Jain, Buddhist and similar other ascetic traditions.  The Brahmanic schools accepts the authority of the Vedas and Vedic literature.  The Jains and Buddhists have their own canons and canonical literature” (Jain History).

Cool!

What then of the choice of meditation?  My source cited Shamata/Vipassana as the Buddha's method, but I suspect a degree of tradition bias, and besides, the method is not as important as the fruition.

Just the same, I appreciate the distinction you're drawing, but don't see the tie-in to mediation.

Care to elaborate?


Offline francis

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Re: Did Buddha know?
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2017, 03:16:34 am »
Hi IdleChater,

Steps seven and eight on the Noble Eightfold Path are Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration, respectively.

Right Mindfulness is traditionally the practice of mindfulness of breathing meditation (anapanasati) for both mental calm (samatha) and insight (vipassana).

Right Concentration (samadhi) is practicing the first four stages of jhana (dhyana) meditation.

Remember, all the elements of the Noble Eightfold Path should be practiced together as they all are all linked together, and practicing each one helps develop the others.
"Enlightenment, for a wave in the ocean, is the moment the wave realises it is water." - Thich Nhat Hanh

Online IdleChater

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Re: Did Buddha know?
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2017, 09:41:15 am »
Hi IdleChater,

Steps seven and eight on the Noble Eightfold Path are Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration, respectively.

Right Mindfulness is traditionally the practice of mindfulness of breathing meditation (anapanasati) for both mental calm (samatha) and insight (vipassana).

Right Concentration (samadhi) is practicing the first four stages of jhana (dhyana) meditation.

Remember, all the elements of the Noble Eightfold Path should be practiced together as they all are all linked together, and practicing each one helps develop the others.

Thanks, but that isn't what I wanted to know.  I already know that stuff.

What I'm curious about is how Being in a Sramanic tradition relates to the choice to meditate?

Offline francis

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Re: Did Buddha know?
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2017, 01:21:19 am »
Hi IdleChater,

Steps seven and eight on the Noble Eightfold Path are Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration, respectively.

Right Mindfulness is traditionally the practice of mindfulness of breathing meditation (anapanasati) for both mental calm (samatha) and insight (vipassana).

Right Concentration (samadhi) is practicing the first four stages of jhana (dhyana) meditation.

Remember, all the elements of the Noble Eightfold Path should be practiced together as they all are all linked together, and practicing each one helps develop the others.

Thanks, but that isn't what I wanted to know.  I already know that stuff.

What I'm curious about is how Being in a Sramanic tradition relates to the choice to meditate?

Hi IdleChater,

The Sramanic traditions have a diverse range of beliefs and practices. Try looking up Jain meditation if you want to know more about Sramanic meditation.
"Enlightenment, for a wave in the ocean, is the moment the wave realises it is water." - Thich Nhat Hanh

 


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