Author Topic: Emptiness and morality  (Read 1748 times)

Offline ground

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Re: Emptiness and morality
« Reply #90 on: June 23, 2017, 12:42:40 am »
Suffering can be eliminated here by playing the game according to the rules, which exchanges the work of suffering for joy. 

 I don't understand. You are trying to avoid suffering for joy at the same time calling things empty.

That would be a big mistake to say that total elimination of suffering leaves only joy. The opposites exist together or don't. What Buddha didn't highlight is that the elimination of suffering also leads to elimination of joy. Nirvana is about rising above the duality.
However rising above this duality can be blissful at times.  :wink1:

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Emptiness and morality
« Reply #91 on: June 23, 2017, 02:06:17 am »
Quote
In Simple Terms

The Lost Wallet



It's as if you leave home and lose your wallet. It fell out of your pocket onto the road away back there, but as long as you don't realize what happened you're at ease — at ease because you don't yet know what this ease is for. It's for the sake of dis-ease at a later time. When you eventually see that you've really lost your money: That's when you feel dis-ease — when it's right in your face.

The same holds true with our bad and good actions. The Buddha taught us to acquaint ourselves with these things. If we aren't acquainted with these things, we'll have no sense of right or wrong, good or bad.



Quote
Ignorance and its results



This picture is divided into two sections, the lower half continuing the theme of ignorance. The lower left-hand picture of a man feeding his chickens shows he has now become servile to his own possessions due to their abundant increase. The right hand corner illustrates the unfruitful practice of fire-worship. (A brahminical practice still used in India as a rite for propitiating the gods. Formerly, also in Siam, brahminical rites and vows (silabbata-paramāsa) which is an aspect of ignorance).

The top half of the picture depicts the result of ignorance: a man caught in the wheel of continuous rebirth. The sequence of a man being bitten by a dog, drowning, and confronting a lion, teaches that once caught in the wheel of life, the captive neither realizes the significance, nor the cause of his plight; unsatisfactory experience (dukkha) [14] has become a common part of his life.




Here, the boy facing the lion does not fear it because he is not aware of the real danger. The lion represents the defilements of greed, anger, ignorance and lust as well as birth, old age, sickness and death. The young man is incapable of appreciating the danger confronting him because in his ignorance he still clings to the overt sensory perceptions of form, sound, taste, smell, and touch which are the bases for unsatisfactory experience. In contact to this state of ignorance, the figure above does realize life’s perils. Having comprehended these elementary causes, he points them out to the young man who still persists in ignoring the truth.

Bhayañāņa (by other artist)



This picture also illustrates the theme of the knowledge of fearfulness but is by a different artist. Here the boy (or the immature person) is frightened by the lion while above the aspiring monk, (who stands for the mature person able to face unwelcome but true facts) realizes the fearsomeness of all compounded things.

Gotrabhūñāṇa




This picture illustrates maturity of knowledge (gotrabhū-ñāṇa). Here the aspirant points to the Three Gems upon the ornate throne and signifies that he has finally taken Nibbāna as the object of his meditation. At this stage, he is prepared to transcend the “family” (gotra) of ordinary mortals and progress into the realm of the Noble Ones (ariya), which term also means those who have developed.*
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Offline AlwaysDayAfterYesterday

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Re: Emptiness and morality
« Reply #92 on: June 23, 2017, 05:18:08 am »
Do you play video games?  When you pick up a controller, you are gaining union with an avatar you have likely created before the game begins.  As you control the character on the other side, your mind is driving the choices of the adventure as a user (Guest and Host).  Now imagine this same theme, but there is a headset as a controller, and you enter into a state of inconscience (amnesia) of your truth self.  What you thought was you in the game, once you wake up, is then seen as empty and without substance.  It was just a game.  Empty.  Did you learn something, or gain skill in the game?  Was the character you imagined in the illusion of Mara you (purduring self), or are you the true Higher nature once you emerge from the game?  MU!  Just because your character has no purduring self as the illusion / avatar in no way assumes this of your higher nature. 

 I understand what your saying. What are in middle of a game with the aim to find enlightenment and get ride of suffering. But doesn't that a need? How could then things be empty?

If you can establish this Absolute, then see the two side of relative as they are.  Body and Mind here is a false construct.  Its a residual self image only, but the true self in Sattva is the user.  YOU.  The essence of this game is infinite users until you win the game.  Winning involves cultivation of character.  Suffering can be eliminated here by playing the game according to the rules, which exchanges the work of suffering for joy.  Winning the game is a matter of mastery over the game.

 I don't understand. You are trying to avoid suffering for joy at the same time calling things empty.

I can explain this to you further if you want to see how easy the end to suffering is to master.  It's a simple relative choice placed into action.

 Thanks. I am myself in the state of emptiness looking for a way out, looking for the meaning if there is any.

Read Tao 11.  Empty.  Emptiness is usefulness.  When you are filled with the wrong contents, then it is necessary to empty them away in order to become useful again for filling.  It's much like exiting that video game, only to find you were in a game.  From this, you can disrobe that body of thinking and try on a new robe (the new world you find).  It's literally birthing a new reality and paradigm.  Emptiness is like taking a 100 page word file, deleting all the words, then starting over on your book from scratch.  The Book of Life is similar to this, where your wrong views and notions are the letters and words, but the author is still there, ready to write a new volume. 

There are two Zen aphorisms you should learn.  Sickness and Medicine cancel each other.  The same hand that gives sickness also gives medicine.  From these two, realize you are the hand.  Here's another aphorism:  When the student is ready, the Master appears.  Again, you are the one who appears when you are ready.  Another aphorism:  For every joy, there is a price to pay.  Flip this.  For every price you pay, there is a joy.  Now think deeply on this:  https://sites.google.com/site/atsdayaftertomorrow/docs-and-files

Another file you will see is a view of the Triloka from 10 dimensions, seeing how a tree grows from root to fruit.  You are the tree. You are the fruit.  You are the gardener.  A gardener must suffer the hoe. 

« Last Edit: June 23, 2017, 05:21:52 am by AlwaysDayAfterYesterday »
Time and Space are one.  The day after yesterday is now.  You always have time to forget the past by building the future.  The best way to predict the future is to create it.  When do you begin?  All of time and space for you to grow, develop, cultivate and remake yourself again and again.  Seek, Find and Adaptation.

Offline bahman

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Re: Emptiness and morality
« Reply #93 on: June 24, 2017, 12:13:46 pm »
How could possibly morality arise from emptiness? Everything is indifferent in that state.

This statement is absolutely wrong & the adherence (clinging) to this error results in ignoring the many correct answers given.

Kind regards  :namaste:

 So the things is not indifferent?

Offline bahman

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Re: Emptiness and morality
« Reply #94 on: June 24, 2017, 12:16:03 pm »
It is the realization that if things are empty, we can become aware that the principles of morality are apparent once they arise from it.

 How could possibly morality arise from emptiness? Everything is indifferent in that state.
Analytically speaking, everything that arises arises from lucid emptiness. So it is not contradictory that also morality if it arises arises from lucid emptiness.
However experientially there is a great difference between morality arising from lucid emptiness and morality arising from alleged inherent existence.

 Isn't the emptiness indifferent?

Offline bahman

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Re: Emptiness and morality
« Reply #95 on: June 24, 2017, 12:18:40 pm »
Suffering can be eliminated here by playing the game according to the rules, which exchanges the work of suffering for joy. 

 I don't understand. You are trying to avoid suffering for joy at the same time calling things empty.

That would be a big mistake to say that total elimination of suffering leaves only joy. The opposites exist together or don't. What Buddha didn't highlight is that the elimination of suffering also leads to elimination of joy. Nirvana is about rising above the duality.

 So you are living forever in state of emptiness after you are enlightened?

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: Emptiness and morality
« Reply #96 on: June 24, 2017, 01:01:31 pm »
So the things is not indifferent?

When emptiness is realised, the mind will be empty of greed, hatred & delusion. To quote:
Quote
And this unprovoked awareness-release is empty of passion, empty of aversion, empty of delusion. Mahavedalla Sutta

Greed, hatred & delusion are the root of unwholesome or immoral actions. To quote:
Quote
And what is the root of the unwholesome? Greed is a root of the unwholesome; hate is a root of the unwholesome; delusion is a root of the unwholesome. This is called the root of the unwholesome.

And what, friends, is the unwholesome? Killing living beings is unwholesome; taking what is not given is unwholesome; misconduct in sensual pleasures is unwholesome; false speech is unwholesome; malicious speech is unwholesome; harsh speech is unwholesome; gossip is unwholesome; covetousness is unwholesome; ill will is unwholesome; wrong view is unwholesome. This is called the unwholesome.

Sammaditthi Sutta

Therefore, when emptiness is realised, there will be no greed, no hated & no delusion (selfishness) therefore performing immoral actions is impossible.

 :dharma:

Offline ground

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Re: Emptiness and morality
« Reply #97 on: June 24, 2017, 10:51:43 pm »
It is the realization that if things are empty, we can become aware that the principles of morality are apparent once they arise from it.

 How could possibly morality arise from emptiness? Everything is indifferent in that state.
Analytically speaking, everything that arises arises from lucid emptiness. So it is not contradictory that also morality if it arises arises from lucid emptiness.
However experientially there is a great difference between morality arising from lucid emptiness and morality arising from alleged inherent existence.

 Isn't the emptiness indifferent?
This question arose because my third sentence "However experientially ... inherent existence." also is an expression of analysis although it refers to experience.
It is impossible to express experience linguistically without analytical thinking. Application of language requires analysis. However the linguistic expression may refer to an object of analysis as in the case of my first and second sentence or to an experience as in the case of my third sentence. So the expression 'Analytically speaking' of my first sentence may be misleading because thinking is required in all cases of language application. The relevant difference is whether the linguistic expression of the thinking refers to an object of analysis or to an experience. But as to 'experience' a concept arising from a linguistic expression referring to an experience in a hearer or reader of the expression never is the experience as such but only a concept.

Anyway VisuddhiRaptor has given an appropriate answer too.

When morality arises in the context of one immersed in emptiness it is morality in the eyes of others. The one immersed in emptiness does not have a cognition 'this is morality and that is not morality'.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 11:06:35 pm by ground »

 


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