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A Mosaic of Traditions - One Virtual Sangha => Buddha Basics - Beginner Zone => Topic started by: Dharmakara on October 15, 2014, 03:08:57 pm

Title: Going it alone?
Post by: Dharmakara on October 15, 2014, 03:08:57 pm
Do you have a meditation practice and follow the Buddhist teachings, but don’t belong to a Buddhist community, or sangha, and don’t have a Buddhist teacher? If so, you’re part of a growing community of unaffiliated Buddhists.

Below you will find a special collection of articles from the Spring 2010 issue of Buddhadharma: The Practitioner’s Quarterly, offering guidance and support to those who are “going it alone” from prominent Buddhist teachers in the West: Sylvia Boorstein, Norman Fischer, Gaylon Ferguson, Barry Magid, Judy Lief and Lew Richmond. As Norman Fischer points out in his introduction, if you are unaffiliated, you are certainly not alone.

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Introduction: Buddhism’s New Pioneers
by Norman Fischer

It’s possible that most Western Buddhists are “unaffiliated.” That is, they practice alone or in small informal groups not listed in the phone book or on the web. There is therefore no record, no official trace, of their activity. They practice off the books.

If you’re unaffiliated, maybe you became interested in Buddhism through reading, or in school, or maybe you met a Buddhist practitioner whose approach to life intrigued you. Perhaps you traveled in Asia. Chances are you are unaffiliated because you can’t find a Buddhist center nearby. But I suspect that many unaffiliated practitioners do live near Buddhist centers but don’t want to go to them because they don’t like “organized religion.” This may be due to a bad experience in the past, perhaps in childhood, or because of a strongly held opinion that organized religion is always bad, on principle.

read more >>> http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/web-archive/2010/6/1/buddhisms-new-pioneers.html (http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/web-archive/2010/6/1/buddhisms-new-pioneers.html)

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Teachings: Get Ready to Dive In
by Judy Lief

Thanks to the efforts of translators, practitioners, and scholars, we have access to an abundance of magazines, journals, books, articles, videos, podcasts, and websites about Buddhism in all its diverse forms. Different Buddhist schools emphasize different aspects of the tradition and have varying guidelines regarding the proper balance of study and practice. And when it comes to study, different schools of Buddhism focus on completely different primary texts and commentaries.

Practitioners studying within a particular sangha may follow a customary curriculum, and be guided in their studies by teachers within their community. But for the independent practitioner, there is no clear roadmap. The sheer volume of material to study can be overwhelming, and so can figuring out where to start. So it is probably best to begin at the beginning—with yourself.

read more >>> http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/web-archive/2010/6/1/teachings-get-ready-to-dive-in.html (http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/web-archive/2010/6/1/teachings-get-ready-to-dive-in.html)

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Practice: You Can’t Do It Wrong
by Barry Magid

Zen master Dogen (1200–1253) said that zazen was not a meditation technique but was instead the dharma gate of enjoyment and ease. Yet how often we stray from that reminder, especially when we are sitting alone.

A technique is something we can do right or wrong, well or badly. True practice is about being grounded in a place free from these dichotomies. So we need to frame our practice in such a way that we do not get lost in dualisms of right or wrong, progress or the lack of it.

read more >>> http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/web-archive/2010/6/1/practice-you-cant-do-it-wrong.html (http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/web-archive/2010/6/1/practice-you-cant-do-it-wrong.html)

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Community: Extending the View of Sangha
by Gaylon Ferguson

We are human beings walking a path of liberation, and the value of community is linked to our fundamental humanity. As Suzuki Roshi said, “Buddhanature is just another name for our human nature.” As human beings, we are strongly affected by those around us: we share in their joys and sorrows, and we look at what is happening in our immediate environment and feel discouraged or inspired. Nowadays, evolutionary scientists tell us we are “hardwired” as social beings; it is human nature to be influenced by our association with family, friends, colleagues, neighbors, the communities we work and live in. The English word “influenza” comes from the same root, and the view here is that awakening is positively contagious: we catch each other’s wisdom and compassion, because wakeful examples resonate so strongly with our own innate nature.

read more >>> http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/web-archive/2010/6/1/community-extending-the-view-of-sangha.html (http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/web-archive/2010/6/1/community-extending-the-view-of-sangha.html)

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Mentors: Spiritual Friends Help Guide the Way
by Sylvia Boorstein

Two of my most significant ongoing practice opportunities are dedicated commitments with friends who live time zones away and whom I rarely meet in person. My friends are teachers, as I am, but in both cases we are not trying to teach each other. Rather we are friends learning together.

The Buddha emphasized the importance of spiritual friendship. is said that Ananda, one of his principal disciples, asked, “Is it true, Lord, that noble friends are half of the holy life?” The Buddha is said to have responded, “No, Ananda. It’s not true. Noble friends are the whole of the holy life.”

read more >>> http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/web-archive/2010/6/1/mentors-spiritual-friends-help-guide-the-way.html (http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/web-archive/2010/6/1/mentors-spiritual-friends-help-guide-the-way.html)

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What If? Guidelines for Choosing a Teacher
by Lewis Richmond

You may be perfectly content to study and practice the dharma on your own, without a Buddhist teacher or community. But the time may come when you feel that isn’t enough, and you decide you want to seek one out. If that happens, how do you go about finding a teacher (and by extension, a community) that’s right for you?

It’s important to know that the wisdom you’re seeking is already within you. It guides your spiritual search, and is the reason you are already on the path. So to some extent you can rely on your own instincts and intuition to help you.

read more >>> http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/web-archive/2010/6/1/what-if-guidelines-for-choosing-a-teacher.html (http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/web-archive/2010/6/1/what-if-guidelines-for-choosing-a-teacher.html)

Title: Re: Going it alone?
Post by: summer moon on October 17, 2014, 12:45:25 pm
Thank you for this topic, the link and the articles. I had figured I was the only solo explorer of Mahayana Buddhism. Now I know that unaffiliated Buddhists are themselves a movement.
Title: Re: Going it alone?
Post by: Dharmakara on October 19, 2014, 12:03:55 am
Hi Summer Moon and welcome to Free Sangha.

It's good to hear that the thread is serving its intended purpose --- there's been quite a few discussions in regard to the topic, but no resource section for practitioners who are actually going it alone, so it seemed more than appropriate to provide such a resource.

There's also another article I've mentioned a few times before, The Lone Buddhists, by Piya Tan:

http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/RB50-Lone-Buddhists-120404.pdf (http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/RB50-Lone-Buddhists-120404.pdf)

By the way, if anyone knows of other resources, please feel free to add them to this thread.
Title: Re: Going it alone?
Post by: falconbrother on November 27, 2014, 05:25:43 pm
I have been studying alone for over a decade.  I live in the South where Buddhist are as rare as hen's teeth. 

I once heard a Buddhist speaker speak about how far so many Buddhist organizations, Sangha's had gone from what he thought was the intentions of the Buddha himself.  He said that the Buddha taught that people should free themselves from all kinds of concepts about reality.  But, that much of the Buddhist religion had just created more layers of conceptual ideas to crawl through.  So, as much as I would enjoy a Buddhist community, I think, there's not much to choose from.  The good news is that it forces me (sort of - in a manner of speaking) do the work myself and not lay back and be hand fed. 

I read a huge, and I do mean, huge stack of books.  Then, after a few years came to the conclusion that I would have to stop reading and sit in meditation, seek enlightenment (which is a word about a thing that doesn't exist).  I think I have done pretty well (who ever "I" is).  I have experienced in very profound ways the illusion of my reality and my ideas about the I = me+my story.  I have experienced the truth of emptiness and the interdependent existence of all things or the ways in which we conceptualize things as being which are only mental/egoic concepts.  I have experienced the emptiness behind the concepts and found this to be an extremely deep well that my third dimensional paradigm struggles with. 

My major influences are: Shunryu Suzuki, Jack Kornfield, Pema Chodron, Thich Nhat Hanh, His Holiness the Dali Lama, Adyashanti, Alan Watts, etc..     
Title: Re: Going it alone?
Post by: mf on February 06, 2015, 05:01:57 pm
I think it's good to start out alone.  Reading and meditating will unravel your thoughts until you have your first awakening (transcending thought because it's been intellectually unraveled).

Once this has happened though, you need a teacher.  You will go off the deep end believing whatever silliness re-appears in your mind because hey - it worked!  You got enlightened!  However, this is just the very beginning.

Teachers who are further along will guide you much more rapidly.  After initial enlightenment, there is not much more to learn from books - the transmission and deepening is beyond mind.  Don't trust 'transmission' from your imagination.
Title: Re: Going it alone?
Post by: Radiant946 on October 25, 2015, 07:24:11 pm
I am so glad I found FreeSangha. I am actually going it alone right now studying buddhism.  It's not by choice, but there isn't a sangha near me. I thought it wasnt acceptable to study on my own, but I see it is. I have great books and literature that I am studying, but I see there is a wealth of information here, too, and help for beginners.
Title: Re: Going it alone?
Post by: question everything on October 27, 2015, 06:10:22 am
Hi Radiant,

 I have made the same choice,and appreciate the help given on FreeSangha, I look forward to reading your thoughts.
Title: Re: Going it alone?
Post by: KarmaDrakpaYeshe on March 11, 2016, 08:57:14 pm
If you are serious about Buddhism then try to find a sangha. You always need friends, and that is the same in Buddhism. Even if they are not of the exact same views or lineage that doesnt matter. At least they are a lot closer to it than your average people and will probably still support your practice. Buddha intended his monks to live together and not separate for a reason. It is very important on the path long term to have support, people to encourage you and pick you up when you fall. A supportive atmosphere is difficult to cultivate on your own in this modern age.

But I feel you are asking this question because of a lack of support. If that is the case as long as you are sincere you can still practice. But I don't think I could have taught myself how to meditate adequately. I tried on my own for years, but it was only when I went to a true retreat that taught me how to truly do it with success. People have mixed feelings about vipassana, but they have free centers throughout the world, and I would say they are the most realistic way to get involved in real meditation for most people.

 There is a responder above from the carolinas. I once met someone from the carolinas who described himself as a hidden yogi due to the intolerance there and lack of sangha. But he is wrong to think he is without a sangha, he has found one on here :). At least some kind of contact I would think is essential. Even great yogis who go into retreat have their teachers forever in their minds, they often describe being surrounded by supporting deities and long dead lineage masters in a very real way. 

I personally have experienced the blessings of living among true sangha members. It was an unequalled asset I could not say enough good things about. It may be hard to find this, but I know a lot of people who have gone all the way around the world to find it and aren't the least bit sorry. Not saying you have to do that, but if buddhism is important to you I really recommend being somewhere that there is a group that at least meets on a regular basis. I was without that for years, and was recently blessed to find it again. I had forgotten how wonderful that is.
Title: Re: Going it alone?
Post by: apb123 on April 16, 2016, 01:31:02 pm
I have been "going it alone" for 20 years.

There are no communities near me.
Title: Re: Going it alone?
Post by: whale on June 21, 2016, 12:04:41 pm
I'm alone as well. I used to go to a center but now have a family.  I don't think smaller centers have the capacity for drop offs or child care.   Some say Buddha's son Rāhula was named "impediment" and "fetter", and when you have children it all make sense.  at lease my ideal of self has been obliterated.
Title: Re: Going it alone?
Post by: Ron-the-Elder on June 25, 2016, 04:46:16 pm
Suggestion:  Find a monastic community online and invite Bhikkhus and Bhikkhunis to come visit with you and share your presence in the local community by showing them around your village, town or city.  Take them shopping and or perhaps invite them to consider starting a community (sangha) in your region.
Title: Re: Going it alone?
Post by: stillpointdancer on June 26, 2016, 04:12:17 am
What a great conversation. In a nutshell it sums up both the advantages and problems of exploring life as a Buddhist in the West. We have access to the great wisdom of the ages, and the entire internet to play with, but we still come up against traditions which have developed in many different ways, and which are embedded in many different cultures. Going it alone allows you to make up your mind what all this means for you, but it can't beat being with a real person, someone to teach you and talk with you face to face.

The experience of meditation is different too. meditating by yourself is important and, ultimately, how you achieve what you want to, but it's not like meditating with a group of like-minded people. A whole different experience. Maybe there isn't a Buddhist group near you, but could you meet up with people who just want to meditate together?

I think that too much Buddhist material is caught up with translations from traditions, cultures and times which have their own, usually untranslatable, jargon. Suitable English words just don't exist, or come with their own culture laden meanings. Many traditions are, understandably, built around what has worked for special individuals in the past, but ignores the needs of each individual. The Buddha was said to be an expert in tailoring what he said to each individual, allowing them to make progress according to their needs.

What we in the West can offer is to work on what it means to practice Buddhism and meditation in the West, calling on, but not being delineated by, the great traditions of the past. I've been working on it since I retired, and I'm sure there are lots of other people out there doing the same.
Title: Re: Going it alone?
Post by: Ron-the-Elder on June 26, 2016, 05:45:58 am
Quote
stillpointdancer wrote:  "What we in the West can offer is to work on what it means to practice Buddhism and meditation in the West, calling on, but not being delineated by, the great traditions of the past. I've been working on it since I retired, and I'm sure there are lots of other people out there doing the same."


My understanding is that the goal, leading to enlightenment, is not meditation, but to attain a degree of mindfulness, which allows us to recognize that all experiences of body and mind are empty of any self.  This happens naturally over the time of our individual practices.  Practicing Vipassana and Samatha meditation works together to bring us to this state of awareness:  "I feel anger, anger is not me;  I feel an itch, the itch is not me; I am thinking, the thoughts are not me;  I am writing with an intention to communicate an idea, the intention is not me;  I am aging and my body is deteriorating, my body is not me, I am celebrating a birthday, but my age is not me"  You know what you are experiencing in the moment, you are experiencing it of body and/or of mind.  None of these is me.  Once we become aware of this reality and remain mindful of this reality, we have entered the stream.

source:   http://www.freesangha.com/forums/Smileys/default/wheel.gif (http://www.freesangha.com/forums/Smileys/default/wheel.gif)
Title: Re: Going it alone?
Post by: whale on June 28, 2016, 09:04:28 am
Good ideal "Ron-the-Elder". perhaps a call out on meetup.com. 
Title: Re: Going it alone?
Post by: Zen on June 29, 2016, 05:23:10 pm
I am also in the deep south and don't see many Buddhists. I tend to like Buddhism and Daoism because, unlike the very dogmatic and impractical Abrahamic religions, the Buddhist, Daoist, and Zen paths are more of a practical and nondogmatic path towards enlightenment. I doubt the concept of rebirth, but rebirth is much more realistic and probable than reincarnation. The way I've heard rebirth decribed is like using one flame to start a new flame--different flames, but having a connection. I could see this, but I try to stay scientific in my approach, and as such, I need to evidence to fully approve the concept of rebirth. Otherwise, I decided to start zazen.

I am lucky to have met 2 other buddhists and we are meeting one a week in a tiny, makeshift sangha. I wish it was bigger and that we could meet more often, as once a week is a long time to wait between meetups, and I like sharing my experiences. Then again, the three of us are all fairly inexperienced lay people, so it could be better...
Title: Re: Going it alone?
Post by: ECS on July 19, 2016, 05:40:53 pm
Human are now living in a culture where knowledge is accepted as the basis of judgement ... each moment human lived in knowledge and even became part of the knowledge itself ....just imagine , if you could take out what you know from your mind , what is left in the mind ???? The one left in the mind is you ... is emotion , is desire/love/hate/anger/greed/fear/worry etc .......and Buddhism is simply realizing you are emotion .
Perhaps as one awaken to Buddhism , he realize he is alone in the journey of his choice of his will in his world ...nothing exist out there except emotion , as one awaken to emotion , one realize nothing is owned or connected to him ...there is no relationship / no ownership ...nothing is belong to him nor any human / material even the physical body is never belong to him ..........you are alone 
Title: Re: Going it alone?
Post by: Samana Johann on August 12, 2017, 05:44:55 am
Suggestion:  Find a monastic community online and invite Bhikkhus and Bhikkhunis to come visit with you and share your presence in the local community by showing them around your village, town or city.  Take them shopping and or perhaps invite them to consider starting a community (sangha) in your region.


Sadhu! (Even such as sight seen an shopping is neither needed nor proper, but to give others the change to meet Monks is a great gift, the deed of a admirable person.)

Quote
From the Study-Guide "Into the steam ([url]http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/lib/study/into_the_stream_en.html[/url])"

- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

[Kapadika Bharadvaja:] "To what extent is there an awakening to the truth? To what extent does one awaken to the truth? We ask Master Gotama about awakening to the truth."

[The Buddha:] "There is the case, Bharadvaja, where a monk lives in dependence on a certain village or town. Then a householder or householder's son goes to him and observes him with regard to three mental qualities — qualities based on greed, qualities based on aversion, qualities based on delusion: 'Are there in this venerable one any such qualities based on greed that, with his mind overcome by these qualities, he might say, "I know," while not knowing, or say, "I see," while not seeing; or that he might urge another to act in a way that was for his/her long-term harm & pain?' As he observes him, he comes to know, 'There are in this venerable one no such qualities based on greed... His bodily behavior & verbal behavior are those of one not greedy. And the Dhamma he teaches is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. This Dhamma can't easily be taught by a person who's greedy.

"When, on observing that the monk is purified with regard to qualities based on greed, he next observes him with regard to qualities based on aversion... based on delusion: 'Are there in this venerable one any such qualities based on delusion that, with his mind overcome by these qualities, he might say, "I know," while not knowing, or say, "I see," while not seeing; or that he might urge another to act in a way that was for his/her long-term harm & pain?' As he observes him, he comes to know, 'There are in this venerable one no such qualities based on delusion... His bodily behavior & verbal behavior are those of one not deluded. And the Dhamma he teaches is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. This Dhamma can't easily be taught by a person who's deluded.

"When, on observing that the monk is purified with regard to qualities based on delusion, he places conviction in him. With the arising of conviction, he visits him & grows close to him. Growing close to him, he lends ear. Lending ear, he hears the Dhamma. Hearing the Dhamma, he remembers it. Remembering it, he penetrates the meaning of those dhammas. Penetrating the meaning, he comes to an agreement through pondering those dhammas. There being an agreement through pondering those dhammas, desire arises. With the arising of desire, he becomes willing. Willing, he contemplates [lit: "weighs," "compares"]. Contemplating, he makes an exertion. Exerting himself, he both realizes the ultimate meaning of the truth with his body and sees by penetrating it with discernment.

"To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is an awakening to the truth. To this extent one awakens to the truth. I describe this as an awakening to the truth. But it is not yet the final attainment of the truth."

[Kapadika Bharadvaja:] "Yes, Master Gotama, to this extent there is an awakening to the truth. To this extent one awakens to the truth. We regard this as an awakening to the truth. But to what extent is there the final attainment of the truth? To what extent does one finally attain the truth? We ask Master Gotama about the final attainment of the truth."

[Buddha:] "The cultivation, development, & pursuit of those very same qualities: to this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the final attainment of the truth. To this extent one finally attains the truth. I describe this as the final attainment of the truth."

— MN 95 ([url]http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/mn/mn.095x.than_en.html[/url])

Title: Re: Going it alone?
Post by: tj on August 12, 2017, 07:38:04 am
"Going it alone" is the only option for me at the moment, though it might be fun to have an extended email exchange with an experience Buddhist. (Just a statement, not looking for volunteers.) I'm not really interested in "becoming a Buddhist" or taking on any other label for that matter. Wisdom is the goal, and a bit of understanding; something I have seen in many different people "following" many different religious and ideological traditions. The quality of a person, though somewhat dependent on the quality of their ideology, is of more interest than the ideology itself, though some ideology is utterly repugnant and will corrode a person beyond hope. (White Supremacy being at the top of my "worst" list at the moment, closely followed by Republican late capitalism and American Christian fundamentalism.)

Another reason for going it alone is simply logistics. I live on a small sailboat, don't own a car, and don't spend more than a few months at a time in any one place, and normally not even that long. My "community" is the tribe of cruisers, gypsies really, wonderers. It has been my experience that bits of Buddhist thought (sorry, that's a poor way to put it) are pretty common among those who share my lifestyle.

Which is why I do appreciate forums like this one, where a idea can lead to a question or a thought, that can lead to some more study and a different insight. Though I am not always sure that the internet will turn out to be a net plus in humanity's evolution, it does allow ideas to flow around the world at near the speed of light (a bit of a play on words).
Title: Re: Going it alone?
Post by: The Artis Magistra on August 12, 2017, 10:35:12 am
Hi tj! What interests you about Buddhism or the stuff that might pop up on a forum like this. Anything in particular? You can email me at theartismagistra@gmail.com if you want to.
Title: Re: Going it alone?
Post by: Deemoid on August 28, 2017, 09:31:24 am
Please see the following video for an explanation of why a teacher is required in buddhism. Lama Jampa is an extraordinary teacher, and counts the 41st Sakya Trizin, the 16th Karmapa and Dilgo Kyentse Rinpoche amonst his main teachers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDcUj8nhCqo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDcUj8nhCqo)
Title: Re: Going it alone?
Post by: ground on September 02, 2017, 09:15:52 pm
Please see the following video for an explanation of why a teacher is required in buddhism. Lama Jampa is an extraordinary teacher, and counts the 41st Sakya Trizin, the 16th Karmapa and Dilgo Kyentse Rinpoche amonst his main teachers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDcUj8nhCqo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDcUj8nhCqo)
:lmfao:
I would be surprised if a so called 'teacher' wouldn't teach that a so called 'teacher' is required.
Title: Re: Going it alone?
Post by: Samana Johann on September 02, 2017, 10:09:53 pm
Actually the most have found out that the opposite bring the most dependers, so they insult the others or simply praise "do it your way, with your dhamma as your island".

It's simply the modern approach, facing imense dept, to deny the reallity of dept and it's natural requirement, especially if liking to bend ways, to the opposite direction. Obiviously those no-teacher-teacher lack either on selfreflexion in regard of what they actually currently doing or are aware of their ways out of certain gain from it,even if livelihood for the mind.
Title: Re: Going it alone?
Post by: IdleChater on September 04, 2017, 03:03:52 pm
Please see the following video for an explanation of why a teacher is required in buddhism. Lama Jampa is an extraordinary teacher, and counts the 41st Sakya Trizin, the 16th Karmapa and Dilgo Kyentse Rinpoche amonst his main teachers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDcUj8nhCqo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDcUj8nhCqo)
:lmfao:
I would be surprised if a so called 'teacher' wouldn't teach that a so called 'teacher' is required.

In this case the so-called teacher has better credentials than you do.  Much better.
Title: Re: Going it alone?
Post by: ground on September 04, 2017, 10:41:56 pm
Please see the following video for an explanation of why a teacher is required in buddhism. Lama Jampa is an extraordinary teacher, and counts the 41st Sakya Trizin, the 16th Karmapa and Dilgo Kyentse Rinpoche amonst his main teachers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDcUj8nhCqo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDcUj8nhCqo)
:lmfao:
I would be surprised if a so called 'teacher' wouldn't teach that a so called 'teacher' is required.

In this case the so-called teacher has better credentials than you do.  Much better.

Of course, the credentials received from other so called 'teachers' which are members of the same 'club'. This is the basis of the narrative of so called 'lineage'. I know all about it.
I am beyond grasping at power in the world. So what might be the use of credentials for one unbound like me?
Title: Re: Going it alone?
Post by: IdleChater on September 05, 2017, 03:50:58 am
Please see the following video for an explanation of why a teacher is required in buddhism. Lama Jampa is an extraordinary teacher, and counts the 41st Sakya Trizin, the 16th Karmapa and Dilgo Kyentse Rinpoche amonst his main teachers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDcUj8nhCqo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDcUj8nhCqo)
:lmfao:
I would be surprised if a so called 'teacher' wouldn't teach that a so called 'teacher' is required.

In this case the so-called teacher has better credentials than you do.  Much better.

Of course, the credentials received from other so called 'teachers' which are members of the same 'club'. This is the basis of the narrative of so called 'lineage'. I know all about it.
I am beyond grasping at power in the world. So what might be the use of credentials for one unbound like me?

Unbound?  I doubt it.  With credentials come credibilty.  If you want others to believe you, and this is obviously the case, you have to be credible.  These clains of liberation you make are not credible.
Title: Re: Going it alone?
Post by: Samana Johann on September 05, 2017, 03:57:05 am
Claims
Title: Re: Going it alone?
Post by: ground on September 05, 2017, 05:04:11 am
Claims
There is nothing to claim. empty of meaning, empty of truth.
Title: Re: Going it alone?
Post by: Samana Johann on September 05, 2017, 05:11:49 am
It's no claim that the possible spelling misstake in Idealtalk post need to be corrected, just though maybe happy to face own conduct.
Title: Re: Going it alone?
Post by: IdleChater on September 05, 2017, 08:42:48 am
Claims
There is nothing to claim. empty of meaning, empty of truth.

Ah yes, the old Emptiness ploy - the one used when someone doesn't really know what they're talking about and need to cover their butt.

This is an excellent example why a teacher is needed to fully explain  the Two Truths and their meaning.  It's something people who use the Emptiness Ploy know nothing about.
Title: Re: Going it alone?
Post by: ground on September 05, 2017, 01:15:29 pm
Claims
There is nothing to claim. empty of meaning, empty of truth.

Ah yes, the old Emptiness ploy - the one used when someone doesn't really know what they're talking about and need to cover their butt.

This is an excellent example why a teacher is needed to fully explain  the Two Truths and their meaning.  It's something people who use the Emptiness Ploy know nothing about.

 :lmfao:

It's is perfectly ok, if you need someone to tell you what you have to claim. In that way you're not alone claiming whatever you like. That may support your belief  :teehee:

For one who directly perceives emptiness emptiness does not negate functionality but emptiness negates true existence, true meaning and truth.
E.g. if I cross the street not watching the cars I may get run over although the cars are empty of truth since they are empty of true existence. Why is this? It is because cars can be directly perceived you can be run over.

Now please check whether what so called 'teachers' tell you can be directly perceived  or whether they just try to instill beliefs into your mind :fu:

Valid knowledge is based on direct perception exclusively. Belief is not valid knowledge.
Title: Re: Going it alone?
Post by: IdleChater on September 05, 2017, 06:18:19 pm
Claims
There is nothing to claim. empty of meaning, empty of truth.

Ah yes, the old Emptiness ploy - the one used when someone doesn't really know what they're talking about and need to cover their butt.

This is an excellent example why a teacher is needed to fully explain  the Two Truths and their meaning.  It's something people who use the Emptiness Ploy know nothing about.

 :lmfao:

It's is perfectly ok, if you need someone to tell you what you have to claim. In that way you're not alone claiming whatever you like. That may support your belief  :teehee:

For one who directly perceives emptiness emptiness does not negate functionality but emptiness negates true existence, true meaning and truth.
E.g. if I cross the street not watching the cars I may get run over although the cars are empty of truth since they are empty of true existence. Why is this? It is because cars can be directly perceived you can be run over.

Now please check whether what so called 'teachers' tell you can be directly perceived  or whether they just try to instill beliefs into your mind :fu:

Valid knowledge is based on direct perception exclusively. Belief is not valid knowledge.

Well if you had "directly percieved" anything at all, I might actually follow your advice.  You don't even understand the term in a Buddhist context.

For as much as you seem to like tossing word salads and harping on others about their beliefs as if they were something smelly you found stuck to the sole of your shoe, you really have no idea what you're talking about, and your own beliefs are all the more obvious for your condemnations of them in others.

You see, you believe that you understand things.  You believe you're right.  That isn't so bad.  We all have our beliefs.  Where you really fall off the horse is that you don't realize or simply won't acknowledge that you're wrong and all that makes you a hypocrite.

THis is why you need a teacher.  Not a so-called teacher, but someone who actually has the realizations you'd like us to think you have and can teach you.  That will be difficult, because I don't think you have the capacity to learn this stuff.  It's much the same as Milarepa nd his search for Marpa.  Even after he found Marpa, the guru refused to teach Milarepa because he wasn't ready.  I don't think you're even ready for a reference to a teacher.
Title: Re: Going it alone?
Post by: Samana Johann on September 05, 2017, 07:44:47 pm
On certain levels, isn't that most peoples problem as long as not really having taken refuge in the Gems? Once maya has arosen, only strong Dukkha could, can teach one a needed lesson.

As years ago said to Ground:

Quote
The Tree Pulls Itself Down ([url]http://www.zugangzureinsicht.org/html/lib/thai/chah/insimpleterms_en.html[/url])

Craving and desire lead us to suffering. But if we contemplate, our contemplation leans out from craving. It contemplates craving, and it pulls on the craving, shakes it up, so that it goes away or lessens on its own.

It's like a tree. Does anyone tell it what to do? Does anyone give it hints? You can't tell it what to do. You can't make it do anything. But it leans over and pulls itself down. When you look at things in this way, that's Dhamma.


It's how ever not wise to judge in a way "you are not perfect, so I don't accept anything you say". First of all most would be not capable to recognize certain qualities because not direct perceived by one self and secound, even if not perfect, one is capable to tell true points, whether understanding really or not.

Everybody can learn a lot from Ground and it would be wrong not to regard his skill in regard of perceptions in the sphere of the mind door but one should train one self in the basics so to do not oversee the gross defilements while working on the fine. One fast cuts off the possibility to see that one is still heavy bound in the cosmos (five sense sphere) and still an ordinary householder, even if philosophical deny that matter, fully dependend and gross desiring physical food and touch.

As for cutting of the fine, Ground is a very good teacher, but such teachings are for the most not possible to grasp or lead easily to the same illusion of liberation as Ground is caught in.

So really no need to tend to aversion but good to do not forget a proper attidude of gratitude for "our" Consuming-Ahara (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/sn/sn46/sn46.051.than_en.html)hat who is

Quote
Feeding the Hindrances

"And what is the food for the arising of unarisen sensual desire, or for the growth & increase of sensual desire once it has arisen? There is the theme of beauty. To foster inappropriate attention to it: This is the food for the arising of unarisen sensual desire, or for the growth & increase of sensual desire once it has arisen.

"And what is the food for the arising of unarisen ill will, or for the growth & increase of ill will once it has arisen? There is the theme of resistance. To foster inappropriate attention to it: This is the food for the arising of unarisen ill will, or for the growth & increase of ill will once it has arisen.

"And what is the food for the arising of unarisen sloth & drowsiness, or for the growth & increase of sloth & drowsiness once it has arisen? There are boredom, weariness, yawning, drowsiness after a meal, & sluggishness of awareness. To foster inappropriate attention to them: This is the food for the arising of unarisen sloth & drowsiness, or for the growth & increase of sloth & drowsiness once it has arisen.

"And what is the food for the arising of unarisen restlessness & anxiety, or for the growth & increase of restlessness & anxiety once it has arisen? There is non-stillness of awareness. To foster inappropriate attention to that: This is the food for the arising of unarisen restlessness & anxiety, or for the growth & increase of restlessness & anxiety once it has arisen.

"And what is the food for the arising of unarisen uncertainty, or for the growth & increase of uncertainty once it has arisen? There are phenomena that act as a foothold for uncertainty. To foster inappropriate attention to them: This is the food for the arising of unarisen uncertainty, or for the growth & increase of uncertainty once it has arisen.

Title: Re: Going it alone?
Post by: ground on September 05, 2017, 11:36:31 pm
Claims
There is nothing to claim. empty of meaning, empty of truth.

Ah yes, the old Emptiness ploy - the one used when someone doesn't really know what they're talking about and need to cover their butt.

This is an excellent example why a teacher is needed to fully explain  the Two Truths and their meaning.  It's something people who use the Emptiness Ploy know nothing about.

 :lmfao:

It's is perfectly ok, if you need someone to tell you what you have to claim. In that way you're not alone claiming whatever you like. That may support your belief  :teehee:

For one who directly perceives emptiness emptiness does not negate functionality but emptiness negates true existence, true meaning and truth.
E.g. if I cross the street not watching the cars I may get run over although the cars are empty of truth since they are empty of true existence. Why is this? It is because cars can be directly perceived you can be run over.

Now please check whether what so called 'teachers' tell you can be directly perceived  or whether they just try to instill beliefs into your mind :fu:

Valid knowledge is based on direct perception exclusively. Belief is not valid knowledge.

Well if you had "directly percieved" anything at all, I might actually follow your advice. 

IdleChater obviously lacks eyes, ears, tongue, nose, and body. IdleChater must be a bot.

How could a living one with functioning senses like me advise a bot?  :fu:
Title: Re: Going it alone?
Post by: ground on September 05, 2017, 11:40:04 pm
On certain levels, isn't that most peoples problem as long as not really having taken refuge in the Gems?
Look what the buddha did advise:
Quote
"Monks, be islands unto yourselves, be your own refuge, having no other; ... Those who are islands unto themselves... should investigate to the very heart of things
SN 22.43
Title: Re: Going it alone?
Post by: Samana Johann on September 06, 2017, 12:39:51 am
To his Noble disciple, having the Dhamma already, yes. Not to wordlings struggle to gain even basics. Like Ground said on other place, they would just regard their ideas about Dhamma as Dhamma, not directly perceived by themselves. Still believers, faith-follower and like Ground Dhamma-follower. (wish is also already a step torward Nibbana, yet not secured)

The attribute of even the lowerst Noble One is to have unsakeable faith in the three Gems naturally through direct having perceived its benefit among virtue that is pleasing for Noble Ones.

So like always a own-arguments fundation removing try to slip out of the facts, in picking out that what would fit to constuct ones ideas out of the Buddha Dhamma, then later if needed, even say the Buddha was wrong.
Quote
"Monks (e.g. one who lives the holly live), be islands unto yourselves,[1] be your own refuge, having no other; let the Dhamma (received through the Buddha or Sangha, teacher) be an island and a refuge to you, having no other. Those who are islands unto themselves... should investigate to the very heart of things:[2] 'What is the source of sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair? How do they arise?' [What is their origin?] (This being the advice of a teacher, to understand the deed that needs to be done with each of the noble truth)

(And it starts with what?)

"Here, monks, the uninstructed (one who relays on his defiled own perception, refusing teaching and teacher, or not met) worldling [continued as in SN 22.7 ([url]http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.007.wlsh_en.html[/url]).] Change occurs in this man's body, and it becomes different. On account of this change and difference, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair arise. [(And afterwards:) Similarly with 'feelings,' 'perceptions,' 'mental formations,' (and 'consciousness'].


So far valued Aharahat.
Title: Re: Going it alone?
Post by: ground on September 06, 2017, 01:21:53 am

"Monks (e.g. one who lives the holly live), ...



 :lmfao:
Title: Re: Going it alone?
Post by: Samana Johann on September 06, 2017, 01:27:30 am
Just kept a door open for the homeless Aharahat to possible feel not excluded, but there is no way that he would not cut himself of piece by piece.
Title: Re: Going it alone?
Post by: IdleChater on September 06, 2017, 05:41:47 pm

IdleChater obviously lacks eyes, ears, tongue, nose, and body. IdleChater must be a bot.


Nah, Chaz is cool.

Where you mess up is thinking that you're direct perception is the the deal.  Sems to me you rely on sense perception, which is fine, but you fail to realize that direct perception via the senses is non-conceptual.  Jamgon Kongtrul says it best:

Quote
The defining characteristic of the first of these is [bare] consciousness consisting of extraneous awareness, which arises without conceptuality and without bewilderment, directly from the physical sense organs that constitute an individual’s own predominant condition.

So if you think it's a car coming at you, you're not percieving this directly.  A car is a concept.  Even to recognize it is to conceptualize it.

What really goes on with our sense faculties is when they come in contact with their sense objects electrical impulses are sent to the brain.  Our mind formulates those impulses into appearences that we are conditioned to recognize in certain ways.  Those appearences can be anything.  What appears to you can be different that what appears to but we'll still call it the ame thing.

I'm a software engineer.  I can make a computer do whatever I want.  If you have an MS Word file open on your desktop, you can press the "H" key and that character will appear on the screen.  I can write software that will intercept the electircl impulse between the keyboard and the OS so that when you press that key the screen turns the color of my choice instead. I will call it Beefheart. I can further modify the software so that if instaled on different machines it can use the systems unique identification to create different colors for Beefheart.  We can can talk about Beefheart, but until we can see each others screen, we're just talking.  We think we're percieving it directly, but the most direct perception will reveal that all there is are electical impulses and even then, ultimatelt there isn't even that.

If we are percieving directltly there is no car.  Something may strike and kill you, but there is still no car.

Title: Re: Going it alone?
Post by: ground on September 06, 2017, 10:00:02 pm

IdleChater obviously lacks eyes, ears, tongue, nose, and body. IdleChater must be a bot.


Nah, Chaz is cool.

Where you mess up is thinking that you're direct perception is the the deal.  Sems to me you rely on sense perception, which is fine, but you fail to realize that direct perception via the senses is non-conceptual. 

you fail to realize that concepts are either based on direct perception as their source or do not have any source other than creativity of mind. E.g. 'tree' is a concept based on direct percetion and thus tree may be validly known but 'buddha' is based on creativity of mind alone and thus is merely an idea and merely an object of belief and cannot be validly known.
This distinction is the essential basis for science being possible and without this there would be no scientific progress and you would not even have this internet communication.
Therefore only the directly perceptible is real and can be validly known and thus is empty of the speculation of belief.

...Jamgon Kongtrul says it best:....
If we are percieving directltly there is no car.  Something may strike and kill you, but there is still no car.
:lmfao:
you shouldn't follow so called 'teachers' if you end up with such irrational and inconsistent conclusions. if you don't directly perceive a car when there is a car witnessed by others then perception has ceased but if perception has ceased then there would neither be 'something' nor 'strike' nor you.

Direct perception of the car's emptiness of inherent existence does not negate the simultaneous direct perception of the car. This is what you seem to have trouble with due to following irrational philosophies.
Title: Re: Going it alone?
Post by: Reesa Hufnagle on October 06, 2017, 11:17:32 am
It is nice to know I am not the only one that is going it alone. At this time I am with out a way to get to a Sangha so I turned to an online one and I read a lot to learn more about Buddhism. 
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