Author Topic: How are animals in a state of delusion?  (Read 408 times)

Offline IgnoringTheAversion

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How are animals in a state of delusion?
« on: August 08, 2017, 02:47:16 pm »
I've been reading the tibetan book of the dead, and I've seen it implied several times that to be animal is to be in a state of delusion. Here is one example taken from a description of colors to avoid when going into rebirth:

Sthirasima, sage of animals, blue in color, and carrying a book. May he obstruct delusion, which is the entrance to rebirth in the animal realms!

The question is especially curious to me because I assume when the tibetan book of the dead speaks of "animals" in particular, they are referring to the non-human variety of animal. You could nitpick human delusion all day and point out delusions...but I'm not sure if I understand why animals could be characterized as delusional.

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: How are animals in a state of delusion?
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2017, 03:05:31 pm »
Animals are thought not to know much or think much about reality or realms or any of this, instead following their urges and things like that, lost deeply in urges and feelings and unknown origins of desires and acts which lead to suffering and also fears. They are considered less knowing than people. For example they don't know about a cellphone or book and if the book is moving that it is the wind or whatever.

Offline IgnoringTheAversion

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Re: How are animals in a state of delusion?
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2017, 03:47:11 pm »
Animals are thought not to know much or think much about reality or realms or any of this, instead following their urges and things like that, lost deeply in urges and feelings and unknown origins of desires and acts which lead to suffering and also fears. They are considered less knowing than people. For example they don't know about a cellphone or book and if the book is moving that it is the wind or whatever.

It would seem to me that you were describing "ignorance" rather than "delusion", which is another one of the buddhist poisons....I guess it would be interesting to know the sanskrit word for "delusion" and read it in it's context. Delusion, from my understanding, implies a pro-active belief in something false.

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: How are animals in a state of delusion?
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2017, 03:51:15 pm »
Animals are thought not to know much or think much about reality or realms or any of this, instead following their urges and things like that, lost deeply in urges and feelings and unknown origins of desires and acts which lead to suffering and also fears. They are considered less knowing than people. For example they don't know about a cellphone or book and if the book is moving that it is the wind or whatever.

It would seem to me that you were describing "ignorance" rather than "delusion", which is another one of the buddhist poisons....I guess it would be interesting to know the sanskrit word for "delusion" and read it in it's context. Delusion, from my understanding, implies a pro-active belief in something false.

Ohh yeah. I guess its taken on faith that the animals are deluded regarding the world, maybe like when the book is moving in the wind they think its an animal of some kind. Would that be delusional enough? Its kind of what I meant as well originally, but maybe there is a very important narrow distinction being made here. I'm curious though, what is your interest in this or what is it you are wanting out of this exploration or did something bother you regarding this vision of animals?

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: How are animals in a state of delusion?
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2017, 04:54:22 pm »
they are referring to the non-human variety of animal. You could nitpick human delusion all day and point out delusions...but I'm not sure if I understand why animals could be characterized as delusional.

In Buddhism, 'animal' is a metaphor, just like in the world when a rapist, murderer or child abuser is called an 'animal'.

Animals are delusional because they have no wisdom or self-control.

For example, when an animal is hungry, it will kill another animal without mercy.

if a mosquito is hungry, it will keep coming for blood, regardless of how many times you try to kill it.

While four-legged animals often only kill for food & live in relative harmony with nature, they are delusional because they have no control over their emotions.

This is the meaning of 'animal' in Buddhism - controlled by emotions.

 :namaste:

Quote
Bhikkhus, these two bright principles protect the world. What are the two? Shame and fear of wrongdoing. If, bhikkhus, these two bright principles did not protect the world, there would not be discerned respect for mother or maternal aunt or maternal uncle's wife or a teacher's wife or the wives of other honored persons, and the world would have fallen into promiscuity, as with goats, sheep, chickens, pigs, dogs and jackals

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.009.irel.html

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: How are animals in a state of delusion?
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2017, 04:55:59 pm »
Animals are thought not to know much or think much about reality or realms or any of this, instead following their urges and things like that, lost deeply in urges and feelings...

Such as the manner in which you spam this forum, without any self-control or discernment?  :rndr:

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: How are animals in a state of delusion?
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2017, 04:58:28 pm »
It would seem to me that you were describing "ignorance" rather than "delusion", which is another one of the buddhist poisons....I guess it would be interesting to know the sanskrit word for "delusion" and read it in it's context. Delusion, from my understanding, implies a pro-active belief in something false.

Delusion (moha) & ignorance (avicca) are essentially synonyms in Buddhism. The contextual use in scriptures would have to be examined to discern how these words are used differently. 

Generally, ignorance refers to underlying not-knowing where as delusion refers to a reaction at sense experience. :namaste:

Offline IgnoringTheAversion

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Re: How are animals in a state of delusion?
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2017, 06:05:38 pm »
I appreciate all of the perspectives I've read in response to my thread.

Artis Magistra: It does bother me a little bit to refer to animals being "delusional" because I don't see how they can be without the highly developed imaginations and thoughts that humans have. People say crazy, delusional, and harmful things all the time but animals can't really do anything but be in the present moment and attend to their needs/desires (the latter part i suppose being what buddhists don't like).

However, I do find buddhism to be very interesting and am definitely open to discovering that the things that I believed yesterday are not the things that I believe today.

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: How are animals in a state of delusion?
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2017, 06:23:17 pm »
Animals are thought not to know much or think much about reality or realms or any of this, instead following their urges and things like that, lost deeply in urges and feelings...

Such as the manner in which you spam this forum, without any self-control or discernment?  :rndr:

Yeah, I relate lots to animals. They seem much nicer to me than people tend to be online.

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: How are animals in a state of delusion?
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2017, 06:29:45 pm »
I appreciate all of the perspectives I've read in response to my thread.

Artis Magistra: It does bother me a little bit to refer to animals being "delusional" because I don't see how they can be without the highly developed imaginations and thoughts that humans have. People say crazy, delusional, and harmful things all the time but animals can't really do anything but be in the present moment and attend to their needs/desires (the latter part i suppose being what buddhists don't like).

However, I do find buddhism to be very interesting and am definitely open to discovering that the things that I believed yesterday are not the things that I believe today.

I like animals too. Don't let the Tibetans get away with insulting our friends, the animals. Take what it says in the best and most useful way possible. The best and most useful way possible seems to mean to me not to be driven by the illusions created by glamours such as sex, scents, pheramones etc. Act like an animal and you may be pulled towards further animality and bestial conduct and bestial existences. We want to move away from hellish existences towards better and more ideal ones. The animals are good, innocent, and our friends. They naturally are innocent and so progress in that way. There are good attributes to take from animals too. Our goal is to accelerate to the point of being safe and break out of the magnetized pulls so we can be well and safe without getting yanked back into suffering.

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: How are animals in a state of delusion?
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2017, 06:40:44 pm »
I like animals too. Don't let the Tibetans get away with insulting our friends, the animals.

I have these special birds that live in my garden. I used to sometimes feed them (but not often because they are native birds). They used to live in my garden safely. I was there friend. I chased the cats & evil predatory birds away from them. They trusted me. But later I spent $10,000 building a new veranda (balcony), with lovely tiles. But each morning, the birds shit on my tiles. I get the garden hose & wash my balcony and shoot the birds with water so they can live somewhere else. But they keep coming back & shitting on my balcony.

My neighbours dogs bark at me & everyone else, when they are behind the fence. But when the neighbours open the gate and let their dogs out, the dogs run up to me to play with me.

My other neighbour's dog walks into my house if I leave the door open. They want food from me. But they are not even friendly to me.

Animals are stupid! despite being loveable.  :listen:

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: How are animals in a state of delusion?
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2017, 06:42:06 pm »
Yeah, I relate lots to animals. They seem much nicer to me than people tend to be online.

I bet you do.

If you read my last post you might possibly (but unlikely see) how your behaviour on this forum is like my animals at home.  :curtain: :teehee:

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: How are animals in a state of delusion?
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2017, 07:13:30 pm »
Yeah, I relate lots to animals. They seem much nicer to me than people tend to be online.

I bet you do.

If you read my last post you might possibly (but unlikely see) how your behaviour on this forum is like my animals at home.  :curtain: :teehee:

Oh no, I'm very much like a wild stupid dog, I agree. All dogs go to Heaven they say. As for you, a life unloved, barely lived, shit on your veranda, cruelty to birds, and death forever. I may get exactly what you get in the end, but at least I was delusional enough to not really think so. In the end, I did things I thought were worthwhile and would count for something, and you lived for nothing really. Ignorance is Bliss, they say, has your great knowledge that "death is the end of all life and experience" led you to have a good feeling? I can understand being deeply attached to life though when you think this is all there is, but really, why? Your story demonstrated what an unhappy world you seem to live in, I live in an unhappy world too, why don't you just exit it though? You will never have to deal with any of this. Do you enjoy this?

I don't enjoy this much, but I don't think there is an escape to it as easily as you could escape. What are you waiting for though? I'm genuinely curious, like what is the logic or reasoning behind it? You must still be enjoying life, maybe even more than me.

I'm not crazy about life, it really is very painful and bad for me, but if I had a philosophy like you, I might happily opt out, the problem is I don't. I fear death, I fear return and worse return, experiencing again but worse things. You don't or shouldn't have that fear, but you also cling weirdly to continuing to exist and spray birds and harass people and suppress them and insult them online.

Why do you do all that you do?

Also, who cares? Ten Thousand Dollars, Birds shitting on your veranda, I mean what does it matter? You'll be dead and none of it will matter, so why are you fussing about it and spraying the poor birds or mentioning the costs? Costs only matter if you're going to somehow hold on to that money, but you're not even going to breed probably, you don't have children or a wife, so who cares how much you spend?

Seriously, are you a hypocrite or something? Help me to please understand your philosophy, I genuinely want to understand what the heck it is all about.

It seems boring, worthless, arbitrary, faithless, yet you actually go out of your way and type about it and try to spread it and share it. Is it some sort of sublimated sexual urge? Is this your seed that you like to implant in everyone? What the heck is this?

Why would spending 10,000 dollars matter? Why would birds sh*tting on a thing matter? Why would anyone, including dogs or people being smart or stupid or "knowing" or "not knowing" matter? They all get the same fate apparently, they all can't save themselves apparently, they all just die forever apparently, so what the heck does it matter? Why not just be utterly silent on these matters and let people lie and poop and do as they please?

Is it that you want your short little life with no love or loving, to be more comfortable? Suicide is the well known way to end all suffering for those who believe death is the end. Just short of suicide, you can simply medicate yourself until you die. If you insist on living, how does coming online assist you at all? Why not just look at pornography more often. Why does your boring interpretation of Buddhism even interest you or attract you that you even come here and talk about it?

Try to make sense of it all for me please, I want to learn. You are multiplied, there are many people like you, atheistic and dull clones, but I want to understand all of it, the philosophy, the point, the hypocrisy, what motivates each thing.

That will really help me better understand people like you. If you have questions for me, I can try to answer them too.

I write because I think its worthwhile, I think I'm being watched, I think I'm doing something good that counts, even counts if no human sees it. Even if it is delusional, it at least makes sense to me, it has an internal logic and system that works and isn't hypocrisy, your stuff or activities makes no sense to me at all, can you please help me out and explain it to me more?

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: How are animals in a state of delusion?
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2017, 10:21:45 pm »

Also, who cares? Ten Thousand Dollars, Birds shitting on your veranda, I mean what does it matter?

I was pointing out how stupid birds are; how they cannot return the love & respect I have given to them or even simply do what I ask of them.

But about the balcony, it matters & I care. For example:

* There is a drought here & we have water restrictions. I can't waste the water.

* It is not healthy to live in shit.

* Do you have shit in your house; on the floors; in your bed?

 :curtain:

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: How are animals in a state of delusion?
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2017, 11:50:53 pm »

Also, who cares? Ten Thousand Dollars, Birds shitting on your veranda, I mean what does it matter?

I was pointing out how stupid birds are; how they cannot return the love & respect I have given to them or even simply do what I ask of them.

But about the balcony, it matters & I care. For example:

* There is a drought here & we have water restrictions. I can't waste the water.

* It is not healthy to live in shit.

* Do you have shit in your house; on the floors; in your bed?

 :curtain:

Yes I do, I'm an animal, remember? You don't know if the birds are stupid. The birds might be Buddhist and have been mystically informed of your corrupting activities towards Buddhism so pooped all over your stuff. To many Buddhists, Dependent Arising actually referred to a superstitious idea like that. There is a story about some student being rude to Nagarjuna and getting his eye torn out by raiders and they seemed to connect those two events and call it a dependent arising. I know you might not be interested in hearing about just how superstitious Buddhism has been historically, but your philosophy makes no sense. Why do you want to live? You are just not ready to go? What is your point or goal?

 


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