Author Topic: How are animals in a state of delusion?  (Read 435 times)

Offline ground

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Re: How are animals in a state of delusion?
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2017, 12:39:43 am »
I've been reading the tibetan book of the dead, and I've seen it implied several times that to be animal is to be in a state of delusion. Here is one example taken from a description of colors to avoid when going into rebirth:

Sthirasima, sage of animals, blue in color, and carrying a book. May he obstruct delusion, which is the entrance to rebirth in the animal realms!

The question is especially curious to me because I assume when the tibetan book of the dead speaks of "animals" in particular, they are referring to the non-human variety of animal. You could nitpick human delusion all day and point out delusions...but I'm not sure if I understand why animals could be characterized as delusional.

you are confusing the state of animals with the human confusion that is likened to it. Animals are not confused, they are just animals and cannot attain knowledge and have to follow their urges.

A human that is confused however can be likened to an animal if he behaves like an animal out of confusion, i.e. he is not concered about knowing and thus cultivates ignorance and he just follows his urges without critical thinking.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 12:46:54 am by ground »

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: How are animals in a state of delusion?
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2017, 01:15:04 am »
According to the normal Buddhists of the past, the animals can come into better births, the humans can go into worst states after their deaths.

Offline VincentRJ

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Re: How are animals in a state of delusion?
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2017, 04:04:53 pm »
According to the normal Buddhists of the past, the animals can come into better births, the humans can go into worst states after their deaths.

This process is now understood as 'Evolution', a gradual process that takes millions of years and millions of rebirths.

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: How are animals in a state of delusion?
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2017, 04:47:15 pm »
According to the normal Buddhists of the past, the animals can come into better births, the humans can go into worst states after their deaths.


This process is now understood as 'Evolution', a gradual process that takes millions of years and millions of rebirths.


Yeah, that does not appear to be how it was understood by those primitives though. You might like this though:

"Ajivikas developed a theory of elements and atoms similar to the Vaisheshika school of Hinduism. Everything was composed of minuscule atoms, according to Ajivikas, and qualities of things are derived from aggregates of atoms, but the aggregation and nature of these atoms was predetermined by cosmic forces.[9]

The description of Ajivikas atomism is inconsistent between those described in Buddhist and Hindu texts. According to three Tamil texts,[35] the Ajivikas held there exist seven kaya (Sanskrit: काय, assemblage, collection, elemental categories): pathavi-kaya (earth), apo-kaya (water), tejo-kaya (fire), vayo-kaya (air), sukha (joy), dukkha (sorrow) and jiva (life).[9] The first four relate to matter, the last three non-matter. These elements are akata (that which is neither created nor destroyed), vanjha (barren, that which never multiplies or reproduces) and have an existence independent of the other.[9] The elements, asserts Ajivika theory in the Tamil text Manimekalai, are made of paramanu (atoms), where atoms were defined as that which cannot be further subdivided, that which cannot penetrate another atom, that which is neither created nor destroyed, that which retains its identity by never growing nor expanding nor splitting nor changing, yet that which moves, assembles and combines to form the perceived.[9][35]

The Tamil text of Ajivikas asserts that this "coming together of atoms can take diversity of forms, such as the dense form of a diamond, or a loose form of a hollow bamboo". Everything one perceives, states the atomism theory of Ajivikas, was mere juxtapositions of atoms of various types, and the combinations occur always in fixed ratios governed by certain cosmic rules, forming skandha (molecules, building blocks).[9][35] Atoms, asserted the Ajivikas, cannot be seen by themselves in their pure state, but only when they aggregrate and form bhutas (objects).[9] They further argued that properties and tendencies are characteristics of the objects. The Ajivikas then proceeded to justify their belief in determinism and "no free will" by stating that everything experienced – sukha (joy), dukkha (sorrow) and jiva (life) – is mere function of atoms operating under cosmic rules.[9][35]

Riepe states that the details of the Ajivikas theory of atomism provided the foundations of later modified atomism theories found in Jain, Buddhist and Hindu traditions.[35]

Antinomian ethics[edit]
Another doctrine of Ajivikas philosophy, according to Buddhist texts, was their antinomian ethics, that is there exist "no objective moral laws".[15][43] Buddhaghosa summarizes this view as, "There is neither cause nor basis for the sins of living beings and they become sinful without cause or basis. There is neither cause nor basis for the purity of living beings and they become pure without cause or basis. All beings, all that have breath, all that are born, all that have life, are without power, or strength, or virtue, but are the result of destiny, chance and nature, and they experience joy and sorrow in six classes".[15]"

http://www.philtar.ac.uk/encyclopedia/hindu/ascetic/ajiv.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%80j%C4%ABvika

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makkhali_Gosala

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charvaka

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aj%C3%B1ana

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9Arama%E1%B9%87a

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_Jainism

"The ancient text Divyavadana (Ashokavadana is one of its sections) mention that in one instance, a non-Buddhist in Pundravardhana drew a picture showing the Buddha bowing at the feet of Mahavira. On complaint from a Buddhist devotee, Ashoka, the Maurya Emperor, issued an order to arrest him, and subsequently, another order to kill all the Ājīvikas in Pundravardhana. Around 18,000 Ājīvikas were executed as a result of this order.[14] Sometime later, another ascetic in Pataliputra drew a similar picture. Ashoka burnt him and his entire family alive in their house.[15] He also announced an award of one dinara (silver coin) to anyone who brought him the head of a Jain. According to Ashokavadana, as a result of this order, his own brother, Vitashoka, was mistaken for a heretic and killed by a cowherd. Their ministers advised that "this is an example of the suffering that is being inflicted even on those who are free from desire" and that he "should guarantee the security of all beings". After this, Ashoka stopped giving orders for executions.[14]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sama%C3%B1%C3%B1aphala_Sutta

"The Buddha then replied, "Your Majesty, have you ever asked this question to any other teachers, brahmins, or ascetics?"

The King replied by repeating what each of six revered ascetic teachers allegedly[3] told him. (These responses are summarized in the adjacent table.) The king found each of these answers to be dissatisfying: "Just as if a person, when asked about a mango, were to answer with a breadfruit; or, when asked about a breadfruit, were to answer with a mango.""

"The views of six samaṇa in the Pāli Canon
(based on the Buddhist text Sāmaññaphala Sutta1)
Śramaṇa   view (diṭṭhi)1
Pūraṇa
Kassapa   Amoralism: denies any reward or
punishment for either good or bad deeds.
Makkhali
Gośāla
(Ājīvika)   Niyativāda (Fatalism): we are powerless;
suffering is pre-destined.
Ajita
Kesakambalī
(Lokāyata)   Materialism: live happily;
with death, all is annihilated.
Pakudha
Kaccāyana   Sassatavada (Eternalism):
Matter, pleasure, pain and the soul are eternal and
do not interact.
Nigaṇṭha
Nātaputta
(Jainism)   Restraint: be endowed with, cleansed by
and suffused with the avoidance of all evil.2
Sañjaya
Belaṭṭhiputta
(Ajñana)   Agnosticism: "I don't think so. I don't think in that
way or otherwise. I don't think not or not not."
Suspension of judgement."

"The Buddhist fruit of the contemplative life[edit]
The Buddha then elaborated on his perspective regarding the benefits of the contemplative life, moving from the material to the spiritual:[4]

Solitude's delight: For instance, for slaves and farmers, freedom from servitude resulting in being "content with the simplest food and shelter, delighting in solitude"[5] as well as the veneration of others.
Virtue's pleasure: "[T]he monk ... consummate in virtue sees no danger anywhere from his restraint through virtue. Endowed with this noble aggregate of virtue, he is inwardly sensitive to the pleasure of being blameless."
Simplicity's contentment: "Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content."
Mental calm: With mindfulness and alertness (see sampajanna), a monk cleanses his mind of covetousness, ill will and anger, sloth and drowsiness, restlessness and anxiety, and doubt (see the Five Hindrances).
Jhanic bliss: He attains the four jhanic states which are associated with the permeating of his body with rapture, pleasure, equanimity, and a pure, bright awareness.
Insight knowledge: "[W]ith his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability — the monk directs and inclines it to knowledge and vision. He discerns: 'This body of mine is endowed with form, composed of the four primary elements, born from mother and father, nourished with rice and porridge, subject to inconstancy, rubbing, pressing, dissolution, and dispersion. And this consciousness of mine is supported here and bound up here.'"
Supernatural powers: "Having been one he becomes many; having been many he becomes one. He appears. He vanishes. He goes unimpeded through walls, ramparts, and mountains as if through space. He dives in and out of the earth as if it were water. He walks on water without sinking as if it were dry land. Sitting cross-legged he flies through the air like a winged bird. With his hand he touches and strokes even the sun and moon, so mighty and powerful.... He hears — by means of the divine ear-element, purified and surpassing the human — both kinds of sounds: divine and human, whether near or far."
Mind reading: He can discern in others states of consciousness such as those with or without passion, lust, delusion, concentration, etc. (see the Satipatthana Sutta regarding mindfulness of the mind).
Three knowledges: He can recollect past lives, see the rebirth of other beings, and knows the ending of suffering and the fermentations of sensuality, becoming and ignorance.
Release from samsara: "His heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, is released from the fermentation of sensuality, the fermentation of becoming, the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"
Upon hearing the Buddha's explanation, King Ajatasattu declared himself a lay follower of the Buddha.

The king's patricide and its karmic consequences[edit]
The king then confessed that he himself had killed his own father so as to become king. The Buddha replied:

"Yes, great king, a transgression overcame you in that you were so foolish, so muddle-headed, and so unskilled as to kill your father — a righteous man, a righteous king — for the sake of sovereign rulership. But because you see your transgression as such and make amends in accordance with the Dhamma, we accept your confession. For it is a cause of growth in the Dhamma & Discipline of the noble ones when, seeing a transgression as such, one makes amends in accordance with the Dhamma and exercises restraint in the future."[2]
The Buddha subsequently declared: "... Had [King Ajatasattu] not killed his father [King Bimbisara] — that righteous man, that righteous king — the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye would have arisen to him as he sat in this very seat."[6]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sama%C3%B1%C3%B1aphala_Sutta
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 05:26:04 pm by The Artis Magistra »

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: How are animals in a state of delusion?
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2017, 05:47:04 pm »
Most people are as foolish as animals. They just follow their nose an belly, run from one place to another, where ever food is expected, shaking the tail if somebody has food in his hand, bark, if fearing that others take on it, even there belly is full and leave their smelling rest everywhere. The only way to get ride of them, is to give them no access to food, even beating would not help.

If they would know that behaviour like animals leads to animal womb, they would propably start to practic mindfulness, yet they think animals are prais worthy and even desire for their pleasure of sign, ideas, touch to assosiate with them and feeling tended to them is another reason why their future destiny is foreseeable. Obiviously they do see the poor live and bounds on desire of animals, but in they situation similar, they seek even refuge in them.

"wuff, wuff...!"

Assosiating with animals becomes a tendency and one meets his equal again and again, seeks after them, rather then to develope good amount to fall into such state of mind and devastation, be urged.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 05:51:48 pm by Samana Johann »
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Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: How are animals in a state of delusion?
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2017, 07:15:40 pm »
Most people are as foolish as animals. They just follow their nose an belly, run from one place to another, where ever food is expected, shaking the tail if somebody has food in his hand, bark, if fearing that others take on it, even there belly is full and leave their smelling rest everywhere. The only way to get ride of them, is to give them no access to food, even beating would not help.

If they would know that behaviour like animals leads to animal womb, they would propably start to practic mindfulness, yet they think animals are prais worthy and even desire for their pleasure of sign, ideas, touch to assosiate with them and feeling tended to them is another reason why their future destiny is foreseeable. Obiviously they do see the poor live and bounds on desire of animals, but in they situation similar, they seek even refuge in them.

"wuff, wuff...!"

Assosiating with animals becomes a tendency and one meets his equal again and again, seeks after them, rather then to develope good amount to fall into such state of mind and devastation, be urged.

This is how I've understood it was commonly taken in traditional and ancient forms of Buddhism in the past as well.

One might even say "Animal Action leads to Animal Production" and Action even has been the translation for the word Kamma or Karma at times, "Animal Karma Leads to Animal Experience" in various forms.

When the word "Dharma" is taken as "Reality", it can also be said perhaps "Animal Dharma Leads to Animal Presence" or Presence As Animal, the Practice of the True Animal Dharma or "Reality of Being As an Animal".

Underlying all this wriggling talk, is often the unanswered question of "Who is it!? Who is it who is pursuing these Dharmas, Hungering and then Finding the Answers to their Hungers?" It can only be One who is ignorant, pursuing paths of pain, and that does not mean a man, or any particular, but Action itself, the Karma itself is running through the pursuits, generating the notions. Or is it otherwise? This has been an issue skimmed over but also debated, mostly through tendencies of negation and coming up with various ideas, there is often no mention of what is doing the "Avidya", and what is doing the "Here now".

What is happening, what is known, what is seen, is that right now there IS experience, which is all that is known, and that it appears changing, which is all that is sensed, and beyond that, that in order for experience to be generated, there has to be Action, Power, that is "doing" or "being" in some sense to generate the experience for example, to generate the appearance of change for example.

This Power is Not Substance, its what generates appearance or experience (Dharma/Realities), and only through Dharmas can it ever be apprehended or known or heard of in some way, itself being Karma only, Action itself which is not visible or knowable except through consequence or Dharmas/Realities/Experiences.

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: How are animals in a state of delusion?
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2017, 08:43:53 pm »
Turning away from seeking outwardly like an animal and beginning to be mindfull of ones body, feelings, mind and phenomenas is the way one starts to see his animal-like nature and delusion and not in the way of grasping this and that thought and crunch it like a young dog, runing then to the next worn out shoe (thought), Nyom Magistra. See? No? Start to look at the four frames. Wise are not impressed by young dogs nor do they like when starting to shake their tail jump and leaking even, having joy seeing some food.
Even dogs can be learned good behaviour and to restrain in showing them the disadvantage of unrestrained behave.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 08:49:02 pm by Samana Johann »
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Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: How are animals in a state of delusion?
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2017, 09:06:47 pm »
Turning away from seeking outwardly like an animal and beginning to be mindfull of ones body, feelings, mind and phenomenas is the way one starts to see his animal-like nature and delusion and not in the way of grasping this and that thought and crunch it like a young dog, runing then to the next worn out shoe (thought), Nyom Magistra. See? No? Start to look at the four frames. Wise are not impressed by young dogs nor do they like when starting to shake their tail jump and leaking even, having joy seeing some food.
Even dogs can be learned good behaviour and to restrain in showing them the disadvantage of unrestrained behave.

In realizing then the animal propensity or nature one may be able to behave differently from an animal while those in animal delusion are caught up in the animal way and not aware of anything beyond or better or their capacity to escape it.

So then the restrained and thoughtful upon each truth truly realized then ascends the ladder out of stages of addiction in and to samsara. The final addiction is to the ultimates of material prosperities or pleasures in the devic existences, beyond that is freedom from return, it is said.

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Re: How are animals in a state of delusion?
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2017, 09:19:55 pm »
Look after the source and try to be generous in transcripting it, so that you mind runs not away. Try to teach it like a wild elephant, so that it is of use and not a burden for it self and all around. A dog is not able to look at the soucre but just watching others.
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Offline IgnoringTheAversion

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Re: How are animals in a state of delusion?
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2017, 08:21:54 pm »
Turning away from seeking outwardly like an animal and beginning to be mindfull of ones body, feelings, mind and phenomenas is the way one starts to see his animal-like nature and delusion and not in the way of grasping this and that thought and crunch it like a young dog, runing then to the next worn out shoe (thought), Nyom Magistra. See? No? Start to look at the four frames. Wise are not impressed by young dogs nor do they like when starting to shake their tail jump and leaking even, having joy seeing some food.
Even dogs can be learned good behaviour and to restrain in showing them the disadvantage of unrestrained behave.

I'm curious if this would apply to one of the problems I have with my dog: she often goes between wanting to be inside and be outside. It can irritate at times how frequently she wants to do this. So I resolve to let her in sometimes, because I like my dog, and then if I'm more deeply concentrated on something, I don't. If I were wise, I would never let my dog in the house, right?

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: How are animals in a state of delusion?
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2017, 08:44:07 pm »
Turning away from seeking outwardly like an animal and beginning to be mindfull of ones body, feelings, mind and phenomenas is the way one starts to see his animal-like nature and delusion and not in the way of grasping this and that thought and crunch it like a young dog, runing then to the next worn out shoe (thought), Nyom Magistra. See? No? Start to look at the four frames. Wise are not impressed by young dogs nor do they like when starting to shake their tail jump and leaking even, having joy seeing some food.
Even dogs can be learned good behaviour and to restrain in showing them the disadvantage of unrestrained behave.

I'm curious if this would apply to one of the problems I have with my dog: she often goes between wanting to be inside and be outside. It can irritate at times how frequently she wants to do this. So I resolve to let her in sometimes, because I like my dog, and then if I'm more deeply concentrated on something, I don't. If I were wise, I would never let my dog in the house, right?

A dog is not really different from a person or anything else, so if you treat a person well, there is a benefit and if you are cruel, then maybe you will learn what is so bad about cruelty and extremes. Give your dog away if you aren't able to treat it well or gain good by doing good to someone who will be able to or would be better expected to. This little ordeal with the dog can be an opportunity to cultivate good qualities or bad ones. It might come down to what you think the goal really is or should be, coldness or warmth. I'm from the school of warmth, others belong to the school of coldness. From my perspective the cold school people are actually cruel and failing at the proper patience required to be loving and excelling beings.

Offline IgnoringTheAversion

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Re: How are animals in a state of delusion?
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2017, 10:35:57 pm »
Turning away from seeking outwardly like an animal and beginning to be mindfull of ones body, feelings, mind and phenomenas is the way one starts to see his animal-like nature and delusion and not in the way of grasping this and that thought and crunch it like a young dog, runing then to the next worn out shoe (thought), Nyom Magistra. See? No? Start to look at the four frames. Wise are not impressed by young dogs nor do they like when starting to shake their tail jump and leaking even, having joy seeing some food.
Even dogs can be learned good behaviour and to restrain in showing them the disadvantage of unrestrained behave.

I'm curious if this would apply to one of the problems I have with my dog: she often goes between wanting to be inside and be outside. It can irritate at times how frequently she wants to do this. So I resolve to let her in sometimes, because I like my dog, and then if I'm more deeply concentrated on something, I don't. If I were wise, I would never let my dog in the house, right?

A dog is not really different from a person or anything else, so if you treat a person well, there is a benefit and if you are cruel, then maybe you will learn what is so bad about cruelty and extremes. Give your dog away if you aren't able to treat it well or gain good by doing good to someone who will be able to or would be better expected to. This little ordeal with the dog can be an opportunity to cultivate good qualities or bad ones. It might come down to what you think the goal really is or should be, coldness or warmth. I'm from the school of warmth, others belong to the school of coldness. From my perspective the cold school people are actually cruel and failing at the proper patience required to be loving and excelling beings.



Well, my solution was to get a storm door with a dog hatch so that she can come and go when she pleases...sounds better than self-denial/condemnation of impulses to me.

I have issues with the fact that there doesn't seem to be a way to treat everyone right all the time. I would say my dog has a much better and freer life than most animals, but to me this isn't enough. I hope that in my life I can eventually be more aware to balance everything and reduce suffering, but easier said than done of course...

Offline The Artis Magistra

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Re: How are animals in a state of delusion?
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2017, 11:46:51 pm »
Turning away from seeking outwardly like an animal and beginning to be mindfull of ones body, feelings, mind and phenomenas is the way one starts to see his animal-like nature and delusion and not in the way of grasping this and that thought and crunch it like a young dog, runing then to the next worn out shoe (thought), Nyom Magistra. See? No? Start to look at the four frames. Wise are not impressed by young dogs nor do they like when starting to shake their tail jump and leaking even, having joy seeing some food.
Even dogs can be learned good behaviour and to restrain in showing them the disadvantage of unrestrained behave.

I'm curious if this would apply to one of the problems I have with my dog: she often goes between wanting to be inside and be outside. It can irritate at times how frequently she wants to do this. So I resolve to let her in sometimes, because I like my dog, and then if I'm more deeply concentrated on something, I don't. If I were wise, I would never let my dog in the house, right?

A dog is not really different from a person or anything else, so if you treat a person well, there is a benefit and if you are cruel, then maybe you will learn what is so bad about cruelty and extremes. Give your dog away if you aren't able to treat it well or gain good by doing good to someone who will be able to or would be better expected to. This little ordeal with the dog can be an opportunity to cultivate good qualities or bad ones. It might come down to what you think the goal really is or should be, coldness or warmth. I'm from the school of warmth, others belong to the school of coldness. From my perspective the cold school people are actually cruel and failing at the proper patience required to be loving and excelling beings.



Well, my solution was to get a storm door with a dog hatch so that she can come and go when she pleases...sounds better than self-denial/condemnation of impulses to me.

I have issues with the fact that there doesn't seem to be a way to treat everyone right all the time. I would say my dog has a much better and freer life than most animals, but to me this isn't enough. I hope that in my life I can eventually be more aware to balance everything and reduce suffering, but easier said than done of course...

Way easier said than done, it can be really difficult to compassionately manage animals my family has lots of cats and I try to avoid having pets or any obligations but once one does it can be a tool to cultivate lots of good qualities and learn and resolve many issues but to me the most admirable heart is the soft or loving one, I think the door was a great idea. I've been thinking about this delusion thing and animals and was also thinking how afraid animals get and start running or attacking even if its nothing much going on.

 


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