Author Topic: How?  (Read 647 times)

Offline bahman

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How?
« on: May 15, 2017, 08:57:26 am »
 How can we have a single experience if there is no experiencer/self?

Offline zafrogzen

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Re: How?
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2017, 10:07:23 am »
You could meditate on that question.
My first formal meditation training was with Shunryu Suzuki in the 60's and later with Kobun, Robert Aitken and many other teachers (mainly zen). However, I've spent the most time practicing on my own, which is all I do now. I'm living in a rather isolated area so I miss connecting with other practitioners. Despite my interest in zen I've made an effort to remain secular. You can visit my website at http://www.frogzen.com

Offline pureleaf

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Re: How?
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2017, 12:19:30 pm »
There is an experience. A self as well?
« Last Edit: May 15, 2017, 12:22:03 pm by pureleaf »

Offline IdleChater

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Re: How?
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2017, 12:31:02 pm »
There is an experience. A self as well?

Cryptic answers to questions like the OP don't  do much to move the discussion forward.  The answer depends on an understanding of the Two Truths which bahman apparently doesn't  have.As Zafrogzen suggests, meditaion is in order.

Offline bahman

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Re: How?
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2017, 08:35:50 am »
You could meditate on that question.

 So you mean there is no answer without meditation? I contemplate a lot and it is really hard for me to meditate since thoughts constantly bother my mind when I am meditating.

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: How?
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2017, 09:26:20 am »
You could meditate on that question.

 So you mean there is no answer without meditation? I contemplate a lot and it is really hard for me to meditate since thoughts constantly bother my mind when I am meditating.

Stop trying to control your mind.  Just observe and learn what you mind is all about.  Smile as you recognize different aspects.  Make friends with your mind.  Stop fighting it.
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline IdleChater

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Re: How?
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2017, 09:38:11 am »

Stop trying to control your mind.

I find it a bit strange that you would tell him that.  As a group we we go out of our way to promote control over just about very aspect of opur being, from thought, to diet, to view, to frikkin everything.

Then we say to stop trying to control something.

Sheesh.

Offline loopix

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Re: How?
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2017, 11:26:38 am »

Offline zafrogzen

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Re: How?
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2017, 02:32:44 pm »
Hi Bahman,

You asked --
Quote
So you mean there is no answer without meditation? I contemplate a lot and it is really hard for me to meditate since thoughts constantly bother my mind when I am meditating.

There's plenty of different answers to your question, but the ones that you'll get from meditation are unique. Those answers come from inner insight, rather than thinking and analyzing. You’re on the right track to see that thoughts must be let go of. But they never cease for very long and trying to repress them doesn’t usually work. Here’s something I wrote which gives some basic methods for calming the mind --  http://www.frogzen.com/meditation-basics/
My first formal meditation training was with Shunryu Suzuki in the 60's and later with Kobun, Robert Aitken and many other teachers (mainly zen). However, I've spent the most time practicing on my own, which is all I do now. I'm living in a rather isolated area so I miss connecting with other practitioners. Despite my interest in zen I've made an effort to remain secular. You can visit my website at http://www.frogzen.com

Offline Pixie

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Re: How?
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2017, 10:17:56 pm »
You could meditate on that question.


 So you mean there is no answer without meditation? I contemplate a lot and it is really hard for me to meditate since thoughts constantly bother my mind when I am meditating.


Hi bahman,

I highly recommend having a look at this little book "Finding the Missing Peace- A Primer of Buddhist Meditation" by Ajahn Amaro, who's an experienced Buddhist teacher and abbot of Amaravati monastery UK.

 I've been to a lot of his talks myself, some of which you can find on YouTube. There are also a few of his guided meditations there too.

Here's a link to the book:

http://www.amaravati.org/dhamma-books/finding-the-missing-peace-a-primer-of-buddhist-meditation/

With kind wishes,

Pixie _/|\_
« Last Edit: May 17, 2017, 12:07:50 am by Pixie »
May all beings have happiness and the causes of happiness.
May they all be free from suffering and the causes of suffering.
May they never be deprived of true happiness devoid of any suffering.
May they abide in great impartiality, free from attachment to loved ones and aversion to others.

Offline francis

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Re: How?
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2017, 01:42:59 am »
You could meditate on that question.


 So you mean there is no answer without meditation? I contemplate a lot and it is really hard for me to meditate since thoughts constantly bother my mind when I am meditating.


Hi bahman,

Distractions caused by thoughts are common when people start to meditate.

The best way to overcome this type of problem is to go along to your local Buddhist or commuity centre, join a meditation class and learn from the instructors. They will probably start you off by counting the in and the out breaths, which help overcome distractions like you mentioned.

If you don’t have a Buddhist centre close by, then there are many on-line resources.  For example, Mindfulness of Breathing. 

"Enlightenment, for a wave in the ocean, is the moment the wave realises it is water." - Thich Nhat Hanh

Offline IdleChater

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Re: How?
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2017, 12:10:29 pm »
You could meditate on that question.

 So you mean there is no answer without meditation? I contemplate a lot and it is really hard for me to meditate since thoughts constantly bother my mind when I am meditating.

Hi bahman,

Distractions caused by thoughts are common when people start to meditate.

Even when they've been meditating for years!

Quote
The best way to overcome this type of problem is to go along to your local Buddhist or commuity centre, join a meditation class and learn from the instructors. They will probably start you off by counting the in and the out breaths, which help overcome distractions like you mentioned.

I totally agree, a center can/will provide basic meditation instruction and environment for regular group practice.  It's undoubtedly the best way to learn meditation.  It's also an excellent way to me new Dharma friends and check out various sanghas.

In fact I'd recommend hitting them all, if you have choices.  The Zen folks teach zazen, the Shambhalians have excelent shamatha/vipassana/walking meditation instruction, Theravadins teach Vipassana and so on. 


Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: How?
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2017, 12:27:05 pm »
Idle,

Thanks for your suggestion as always.

Yep.  Sometimes trying to control the mind, without understanding how it works is not beneficial.  You should know that for a fact.  So, you have to start by just observing and resisting trying to control.  Label what you observe.  Smile.  Relax.  Eventually the mind will settle down without struggling to control.  Try it, it may solve some of your problems with trying to control everyon else but your (mundane) self. :hug:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline Rahul

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Re: How?
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2017, 10:19:17 pm »
How can we have a single experience if there is no experiencer/self?
The misconception that there is no 'experiencer' arises from misunderstanding non-self. Non-self doesn't mean you and I don't exist. I exist, you exist, Buddha existed. And because of this existence there is the quest for nirvana.

Before we talk of concept of non-self, we must clarify the concept that it negates, i.e. self. Self - which is denied by Buddha - has specific meaning: the unique and separate, unchanging, permanent, constant aspect of one's identity, such as soul. The concept of non-self, then, means that there is no such unique permanent unchanging identity as self. This body can't be self because it is subject to change and then cessation. One's ideas, intellect, nature, disposition, personality etc. do not qualify as self either. Because they all are subject to development and change. One may still insist that 'I' exist beyond the mental and physical attributes and that 'I' is separate and doesn't change. To this, Buddha replied that, the 'I' relies on consciousness conceiving the thought 'I am'. When there is no such thought, there won't be the 'I', too. At a deeper level it also implies unity of consciousness.

Non-self implies that what one considers to be oneself is just conditioned temporary image of one that one has created for one.  In other words, what you consider yourself to be, is a temporary formation of body, ideas, intellect, tendencies, attitudes etc. Non self thus doesn't deny existence of beings. It recognizes the temporary nature of all aspects of existence of a being!

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: How?
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2017, 01:53:11 am »
How can we have a single experience if there is no experiencer/self?


The Bahiya Sutta is worth some reflection:

"Then, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.10.than.html

 


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