Author Topic: How?  (Read 583 times)

Offline stillpointdancer

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Re: How?
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2017, 02:36:22 am »
How can we have a single experience if there is no experiencer/self?


The Bahiya Sutta is worth some reflection:

"Then, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.10.than.html

This makes sense when you understand that our brains are good at creating what we think of as reality. Meditation helps by helping seeing things as they are, not how we want them to be. When we get to the stage where we don't add to, or take away from, the experience, then insight can arise. For this to happen, we have to step back from our 'selves' as well, and observe ourselves observing, checking that we are observing in the right way. All very tricky, and why it takes time to develop such skills.
“You do not need to leave your room. Remain sitting at your table and listen. Do not even listen, simply wait, be quiet, still and solitary. The world will freely offer itself to you to be unmasked, it has no choice, it will roll in ecstasy at your feet.” Franz Kafka

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: How?
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2017, 01:20:08 am »
How can we have a single experience if there is no experiencer/self?


The Bahiya Sutta is worth some reflection:

"Then, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.10.than.html

This makes sense when you understand that our brains are good at creating what we think of as reality. Meditation helps by helping seeing things as they are, not how we want them to be. When we get to the stage where we don't add to, or take away from, the experience, then insight can arise. For this to happen, we have to step back from our 'selves' as well, and observe ourselves observing, checking that we are observing in the right way. All very tricky, and why it takes time to develop such skills.


Yes, this is known as bare attention, and in my experience it can be quite a challenge because of the degree of mindfulness required. It involves paying close attention to the "raw data" of experience, really noticing.   I see a connection between the Bahiya Sutta passage and the direct knowing ( end of conceiving ) as described in MN1:

"The Tathagata — a worthy one, rightly self-awakened — directly knows earth as earth. Directly knowing earth as earth, he does not conceive things about earth, does not conceive things in earth, does not conceive things coming out of earth, does not conceive earth as 'mine,' does not delight in earth. Why is that? Because he has known that delight is the root of suffering & stress, that from coming-into-being there is birth, and that for what has come into being there is aging & death. Therefore, with the total ending, fading away, cessation, letting go, relinquishment of craving, the Tathagata has totally awakened to the unexcelled right self-awakening, I tell you."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.001.than.html
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 01:44:05 am by Spiny Norman »

Offline Pixie

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Re: How?
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2017, 12:54:03 pm »
.

Just out of interest, there also seems to be a connection between Bahiya Sutta and AN4.24 Kāḷaka  Sutta.

https://suttacentral.net/en/an4.24



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