Author Topic: If one is not ordained we shouldn't greet him as "Venerable"!?  (Read 363 times)

Offline Samana Johann

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Just thought: " Ohh... it's not good if knowing that there are secure ways, to leave without giving possibility to it and it's not sure, that even if here are some who are well informed or understand, that they have the generosity or possibility to maybe open a door for some able to understand" So this being the reason, and not anything else, here a task and possibility for you her and for best good future (The saying accured here, but that is just for know that there is a relevant reason why suggestion you here to find best understanding in this relation.

If one is not ordained we shouldn't greet him as "Venerable"!?

What do you think: Is such a judging right and will that lead to heaven?

How did the Blessed one answered this Question of Venerable because of being this or that, birth, education, profession, gender, clothes, monk... ? Who is worthy of Vereration?

Who will have benefits of right praise and blame or loses much in wrong praise and blame?

Maybe, if thinking that of benefit for you and others here, you like to work it out and maybe there are some who can give all good support with their contributes.

Much merits success and Mudita in advanced.

(A maybe good or useful source in regard of this practice on the path and welfare also in the world might be "Respect and Veneration[url], but of course the english is not the best)
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Offline meez

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Re: If one is not ordained we shouldn't greet him as "Venerable"!?
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2017, 10:29:42 am »
I would say that even if someone is ordained, they shouldn't be referred to as "venerable".  If that causes issue for them, it seems they would need to evaluate their practice.

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: If one is not ordained we shouldn't greet him as "Venerable"!?
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2017, 01:34:11 pm »
The Pali suttas explain a person is a 'Venerable' ('Brahman'; 'Holy Man') by their actions (kamma) rather than by their 'birth' ('social') lineage (e.g. MN 98 & Dhp XXVI).

The Pali suttas explain a lay person is to examine a monk for states of greed, anger & delusion before relating to that monks with faith (e.g. MN 95).

It is OK for lay people & lay Buddhists to have deluded defilements however defiled uncontrolled monks are best expelled from the community.

The Dhammapada states:

Quote
307. There are many evil characters & uncontrolled men wearing the saffron robe. These wicked men will be born in states of woe because of their evil deeds.

308. It would be better to swallow a red-hot iron ball, blazing like fire, than as an immoral and uncontrolled monk to eat the alms of the people.

Please let us live in harmony & with the gift of equality (referred to in AN 9.5). When our community members offer us some constructive suggestions to improve our conduct, let us listen & consider attentively, with good faith. 

Many of the Vinaya rules for monks were created by the Buddha as a result of complaints & criticisms by lay people about the behaviour of certain uncontrolled monks. 

We are all friends in birth, aging, illness & death. The Dhammapada states:

Quote
6. There are those who do not realize that one day we all must die. But those who do realize this settle their quarrels.

72. To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness.

73. The fool seeks undeserved reputation, precedence among monks, authority over monasteries, and honor among householders.

74. "Let both laymen and monks think that it was done by me. In every work, great and small, let them follow me" — such is the ambition of the fool; thus his desire and pride increase.

75. One is the quest for worldly gain, and quite another is the path to Nibbana. Clearly understanding this, let not the monk, the disciple of the Buddha, be carried away by worldly acclaim, but develop detachment instead.

:dharma:




Offline IdleChater

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Re: If one is not ordained we shouldn't greet him as "Venerable"!?
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2017, 02:41:09 pm »
If one is not ordained we shouldn't greet him as "Venerable"!?

Putting on crappy robes and wandering the countryside doesn't entile anyone to the honorific "Venerable".  This is somethin, I believe, is reserved for monks - that is, people who have been ordained as monks.

If you're not ordained then you're not a monk and therefore, not "venerable".  If you dress like a monk and want people to treat you like one, and you're not ordained, you're a fake.

I would also question the use of the title Samana - a wandering ascetic - if they have the facility and the time, to post stuff like this on the internet.  It's not very ....... ascetic.

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: If one is not ordained we shouldn't greet him as "Venerable"!?
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2017, 05:47:04 pm »
It good that you get involved in this topic and seeing that it's reason is not exclusively to defend ones possible faults and positions, bias views, Atma thinks it has some value to keep it possible growing better. At least because, out of course, you and your community is not very gifted with visit and teaching of a good for many (yet knowing that that might also seems to be very arrogant and unskilful motivated and might make it even more worse for those incapable of understanding, e.g. gives ground for vipaka to ripe).

I would say that even if someone is ordained, they shouldn't be referred to as "venerable".

Yes, if knowing right that one is not worthy and praise in deeds, words or by thought, would not of benifit, for a lose, for one self and others who are unable to judge righty. And vici versa.

But given, like mentioned by Vissudiraptor, that:

Quote
It's impossible, there's no way, that a person of no integrity would know of a person of no integrity: 'This is a person of no integrity.'

It's impossible, there's no way, that a person of no integrity would know of a person of integrity: 'This is a person of integrity.'". MN110

http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/lib/study/into_the_stream_en.html


how to avoid the danger best possible, for one?

As Visuddhiraptor mentioned in another topic rightly, that intention leads to destination, and wrong intention, which is always caused by wrong viw, leads to hell and animal womb, how to be sure to act not wrong out of not knowing. Since not knowing might even cause more pain for one and of couse same results as doing knowingly on certain level. Here a maybe useful essay on this matter Unwholesome done knowingly and unknowingly, Atma wrote a while ago, when he still did not had not left home wearing the robes under the three Gems.

Quote from: Meez
If that causes issue for them, it seems they would need to evaluate their practice.

That would be a good advice, but yiu know, some can not take good and wel meant rebukes, even if would benefit and if you depend on a relation or in the danger to receive evil reactions, maybe not good to say.
As you assume rightly, it can be well possible that one in robes can be really evil and given that even very evil have often much power in their position and many followers, if one is not very independent and in good position, one should take care. After all its the evil monks deed and earn he gains and not yours.

[Atma will make a break here, since he "needs" to go for alms and there are some who dedicate the gifts to their ancestors and hungry ghost, where ever they might be and dwell, in trust that in that way it will be of most benefit for them. Will possible contionue incl. the useful parts of the others here at this point. Mudita]
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Offline Samana Johann

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Re: If one is not ordained we shouldn't greet him as "Venerable"!?
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2017, 10:01:09 pm »
When Atma left and walked for alms he tought: "Since the community on freesangha for a lage do not and properply will never know 'different' worlds, let me collect some teachings while doing the round", and now sart with the last:

Short before leaving the village street into the forest, Atma crosses the house of a young man who had gained much since Atma dwells here, but unconfortably falled one time into anger because he had been given to much and did not know another way fearing possible dept and the need to pay back. The house was left alone and cows have crossed the fence eating the fruits and vegetables while the man ad his wife are usually some hundred meters away selling sweet drinks in their new little shop to the other villagers. "So actually no duty to tell them but the freedom to do if good. When telling them they possible will be angry and even hit the cows. So there is need to be careful in regard of this."
My person decided to go to the shop and spend some effort and time. There arived asking the wife if the husband is here very direct and she sad "no". Again very direct: "Are you able to maintain metta, mudita and karuna or upekkha?" (If Atma would be so direct here, properly nobody would answer.) A little shock of why she would be asked that like this, she answered humble und honest: "A lityle, Sir. Sometimes yes, sometimes not." "Good. So that you know, there have a lot of cows entered you compound. Being informed in this way you may act as you wish but do not be angry or even hit the cows." "Oh they might be there since the morning." she wispered and contined her work. Atma left.

The moral here: If you tell about a bad situation willing to help without bad intention, you need to be also possible sure that you do not alarm the fools since wether you like it or not, they would simply beat what they can estimate as enemy regardless if a monk for example is actually a saint, just a foolish harmless cow or a bad guy. So in this context, Atma thought to ask you first before continuing very direct: "Are you able to maintain mindstates of the proper Brahma Vihara?" before telling you about certain problems you might have so that you can decide how to act for you self knowingly about the current situation without falling into hell getting aware of it.
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