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A Mosaic of Traditions - One Virtual Sangha => Buddha Basics - Beginner Zone => Topic started by: Tirisilex on September 25, 2017, 03:09:37 pm

Title: Is averting Bad?
Post by: Tirisilex on September 25, 2017, 03:09:37 pm
OK.. I'm doing a couple of things.. I've been meditating and being mindful of for example my Anxiety.. I will acknowledge the anxiety and then I will envision it as a simple form and I will visualize it burning up and it disappears. While this works for me I'm wondering if it is bad to do this?

I'm part of a Tulpa group and I was thinking of making what is known as a Servitor. A servitor is a thought form that is kind of like a robot and just does whatever you program it to do. I was thinking of having the Servitor deal with my anxiety in a similar way. But the question remains would it be bad to deal with anxiety by extinguishing it in flames?
Title: Re: Is averting Bad?
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on September 25, 2017, 04:12:02 pm
OK.. I'm doing a couple of things.. I've been meditating and being mindful of for example my Anxiety.. I will acknowledge the anxiety and then I will envision it as a simple form and I will visualize it burning up and it disappears. While this works for me I'm wondering if it is bad to do this?

Based on general principles of Buddhist meditation, this is good rather than bad. However, it is important you know & feel within your heart & mind freedom from anxiety is good. Kind regards.  :namaste:
Title: Re: Is averting Bad?
Post by: Samana Johann on September 25, 2017, 04:15:58 pm
What kind of anxiety/fear is mr/mrs Tirisilex talking about? That is very importand because it's not so that all fear is bad. Think on the fear to possible avert something which actually should be cultivated.

Generally the first approach for the untrained mind is to avert unwholesome thought. One can not avert a feeling but the thought that is causing it, if seeing. It's actually also not so that one can avert a thought, but by "simply" giving it no attention it can not grow and will die away.

So generally its more and most importand to know which thoughts are good and which bad, which fear is useful, which fear not.

The whole training is to avert unskilful, nurish skillful and then clean the mind further.

A talk just came to mind, of which my person thinks that it could be useful in regard of the more underlying thing here: Cutting New Paths in the Mind  (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/lib/authors/thanissaro/cuttingpath_en.htm)
Title: Re: Is averting Bad?
Post by: Tirisilex on September 25, 2017, 06:32:28 pm
The anxiety I have is from Schizophrenia.. Sometimes I will get anxiety for no reason at all it just hits me. Other times it is from delusional thinking like 'this person is from a government agency and he was sent to kill me.' I'm man enough to recognize that it's a delusion. But the anxiety that comes with it is horrible. I have been meditating the fire thing for a while now and It has been beneficial. I just wanted a Buddhist take on this and see if it is accepteble.
Title: Re: Is averting Bad?
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on September 25, 2017, 07:47:01 pm
I have been meditating the fire thing for a while now and It has been beneficial. I just wanted a Buddhist take on this and see if it is accepteble.

The fire visualization complements Buddhism. Dhammapada 184 states: "patient endurance burns up mental defilements supremely".

Best wishes & metta  :namaste:

Title: Re: Is averting Bad?
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on September 25, 2017, 07:53:04 pm
The whole training is to avert unskilful, nourish skillful and then clean the mind further.

Cleaning the mind requires "burning". Khantī paramaṃ tapo titikkhā

Quote
Sabbapāpassa akaraṇaṃ
kusalassa upasampadā
Sacittapariyodapanaṃ
Etaṃ buddhāna sāsanaṃ.
Khantī paramaṃ tapo titikkhā
Nibbāṇaṃ paramaṃ vadanti buddhā
Title: Re: Is averting Bad?
Post by: Samana Johann on September 25, 2017, 08:23:59 pm
The anxiety I have is from Schizophrenia.. Sometimes I will get anxiety for no reason at all it just hits me. Other times it is from delusional thinking like 'this person is from a government agency and he was sent to kill me.' I'm man enough to recognize that it's a delusion. But the anxiety that comes with it is horrible. I have been meditating the fire thing for a while now and It has been beneficial. I just wanted a Buddhist take on this and see if it is accepteble.


My person "is" no "Buddhist" but "just" a follower of the Buddha, so in that regard Tirisilex needs to look for him/her self if it fits.
Generally spoken the Buddha told of one, only one thing, that should be killed (approached with "aversion") and that is anger/hatred. Be carful, that is only for anger within one self. If receiving such from outward, somethink disliked, an enemy... such unpleasant thing should be endured. So inwardly, when anger arises, kill it, burn it, so that it never can come outward and hurt others (your self really). If your "agency" approaches, take what ever he likes to do with you while burning what ever aversion away and develop much much fear not kill outwardly and to nurish anger arising within you.

For the practice, especially fear, the most importand basic medicine is virture strikt, unbroken virture. Its not possible to overcome fear just by meditation and to heal the old wounds practicing the Silas (min. 5) is very importand, because it takes the reason for fear arising away. Its not possible that if the virtue is firm that fear could arise more than just a moment till it is understood.

A good talk on this matter is "The Healing Power of the Precepts (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/lib/authors/thanissaro/precepts_en.html)"

As for the meditation practice: metta, metta, metta to develope right thinking. Here some accesses (http://www.freesangha.com/forums/practice-tools/new-translations-of-suttas-by-bhante-thanissaro/msg90025/#msg90025)

To understand fear rightly and the function of the Buddhas medicin, there is this wonderful gift of Dhamma: Freedom From Fear (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/lib/authors/thanissaro/fear_en.html)

When ever not contuctive fear arises it's ripping of old karma. By practicing silas one avoids new and by practicing metta and staying mindful (remembering: just fear, just endure...) one becomes more and more skilled to take even the most worth karmas ripping, step by step. In this way the wounds heal, sometimes quick, sometimes some years, but 100% success if following the treatment as given.

My person, at the end, does not think that it is good to develope an image of growing fire that burns fear away. That is not wise and nurishes anger subtile and even dangerous. If able to give fear the image of fire and than let it starve or derive of the means with metta, let it become and grow cold, then such a visualisation can be conductive. So not foolish fire by fire fightings and such "games" like Hellsangles which is often practiced by "heros" outside of the Buddhas way. That makes most really sick, for a long long time.
Title: Re: Is averting Bad?
Post by: Samana Johann on September 25, 2017, 08:31:37 pm
The whole training is to avert unskilful, nourish skillful and then clean the mind further.

Cleaning the mind requires "burning". Khantī paramaṃ tapo titikkhā

Quote
Sabbapāpassa akaraṇaṃ
kusalassa upasampadā
Sacittapariyodapanaṃ
Etaṃ buddhāna sāsanaṃ.
Khantī paramaṃ tapo titikkhā
Nibbāṇaṃ paramaṃ vadanti buddhā

"Yes", actually kanti is nothing then burning it away. What does that mean? Just give no more fuel into that what just bruns. That is meant by burning away. It should be not understood in a way that fire is fought with fire. The metaphor should be understood rightly.
Title: Re: Is averting Bad?
Post by: Tirisilex on September 25, 2017, 09:21:52 pm
I might not be getting with what you're saying.. But visualizing fire to burn up say anger isn't fighting fire with fire. If I was trying to extinguish anger with anger then yes it would be wrong. But I don't see visualizing say anger being purged by fire as the same thing. So it's not like I'm using fear to fight fear. I don't see how it could be different than trying to say to deal with fear with its antidote which is what? Confidence? Calmness? So I burn up the "fear", "anxiety" and replace them with Calmness and Confidence. Because in the long run I am still destroying the fear and replacing it with something else.
Title: Re: Is averting Bad?
Post by: Samana Johann on September 25, 2017, 09:36:27 pm
The antidote of wrong fear is right fear. The antidote of all kind of fear is vijja, knowing or better the total destruction of avijja, not-knowing (delusion).
Confidence and calmess are fine, if Tirisilex even likes to have advices and does not only like to defend ways he/she acts, seeking conformation of what he/she does.

So generally yes, if it works that way as told and is good known and investigated that actually the talk is not a different then the deed, helps, the addition of "when you know for your self...and it is praised by the wise" can be added here.

Just again to virtue, your ways do not seem as if they have very needed fear, and in such manners it's useless work: like people leading unhealthy work seek fitness to do on as usual. It would not heal and yes it's a replacement job, a wandering on.

As for the medicine of the Buddha, nothing will be replaced but simply let it burn down, give no more nurishment into it.

Maybe a good Sutta to make as a reminder of what is conductive to get ride of fear eternaly, become Khmer, khema: Compliance (http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/an/an07/an07.033.than_en.html)
Title: Re: Is averting Bad?
Post by: Tirisilex on September 25, 2017, 10:35:06 pm
To help clear things up I'm a guy.
Title: Re: Is averting Bad?
Post by: Tirisilex on September 25, 2017, 10:46:27 pm

So generally yes, if it works that way as told and is good known and investigated that actually the talk is not a different then the deed, helps, the addition of "when you know for your self...and it is praised by the wise" can be added here.


I have read this over and over and I haven't got a clue as to what you are trying to say.
Title: Re: Is averting Bad?
Post by: Samana Johann on September 25, 2017, 10:57:59 pm
To help clear things up I'm a guy.


Oh yes, my person tells that again and again, to stand by oneself is very conuctive in regard od fear, it treats one to be always and everywhere heedful/conscious, never act in ways that are reasons for fear arising: Suggestions in regard of "Avatar and User placements" (http://www.freesangha.com/forums/faq-frequently-asked-questions/suggestions-in-regard-of-'avatar-and-user-placements'/msg87143/#msg87143)

A healthy self-esteem, virtue and fearlessness, a becoming ride of any personal splitting, like virtue starts merely outwardly and becomes more and more an inwardly matter, requires letting go of means to run away of ones deeds in impossible ways. Try the first steps, Tirisilex, generosity and virtue and if not able yet, try to remove the reasons for it but best is concerning and standing ones man, "subject I am to my deeds (karma)"
Title: Re: Is averting Bad?
Post by: Samana Johann on September 25, 2017, 11:06:44 pm

So generally yes, if it works that way as told and is good known and investigated that actually the talk is not a different then the deed, helps, the addition of "when you know for your self...and it is praised by the wise" can be added here.



I have read this over and over and I haven't got a clue as to what you are trying to say.


It was "just" to confirm it with the words of the wise in it's own regard:

Quote
"Now, Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.' When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness' — then you should enter & remain in them.

Kalama-Sutta ([url]http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.065.than_en.html[/url])


If Tirisilex had the first conforming by himself, with the additions here in line with the Dhamma, e.g. the wise, Tirisilex should be fine with his practice. (As said: if good investigated of what he, Tirisilex, told). Thats all: just a kind of release, expressing of Mudita, appreciation or Anumodana.
Title: Re: Is averting Bad?
Post by: Ron-the-Elder on September 26, 2017, 08:44:01 am
Found this with regard to fear and its countermeasures:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-korda/buddhist-psychological-pr_b_7908520.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-korda/buddhist-psychological-pr_b_7908520.html)
Title: Re: Is averting Bad?
Post by: Anemephistus on September 26, 2017, 08:51:48 am
I have suffered from irrational anxiety, and rational anxiety. I had to get treatment for the irrational variety. I had damaged my body in various ways with drug abuse and at first when my anxiety came it felt unbearable. I studied and I meditated and I learned and when my mind became empty for the first time during an episode of irrational anxiety, and the feeling was still there...I knew I had a problem.

Forgive the description, I hope it makes sense but it's hard to put into words: Mentally It was like a ball of sticky writhing energy, and each time a thought would try and arise, the goo ball would reach out for it and try to latch on and turn the thought into fear. When there was nothing it would try to make it's own thoughts. I spent days at a time watching it with my minds eye and keeping it isolated. I was exhausted and had taken the wrong road for me.

I decided that the feeling was brain chemistry.  I got a prescription to help and I continued my meditative practice, over time I learned lessons which helped and slowly I had my dosage lowered and faced the difficulty in smaller steps. Each time it has been about a year and I am still not entirely done. Most of the year I spend with a very low dose of medication just enough I don't lose attenuation, two times a year it is a little higher because that is when the storm comes. I am confident that if I were to take all of my time and devote myself entirely to overcoming it, I would eventually, but I have to live with other responsibilities and cannot spend the time in this way.

I see no problem using a mental reflex to overcome a pattern of feelings. If it continues to work then by all means, deny it the battle it brings! If it does not continue to work, consider treatment options, brain chemistry is a genetic component that has an importance that can not be easily overstated. I found when I lessened it's effect on me I was able to get a foothold to the path that has gotten increasingly easier every year since I started.

Please, keep us updated on how this goes! What works for you that you have tested and you have seen working and is making you happier and better is good! Sharing how that path is aiding you would be greatly appreciated!

EDIT: Ron-The-Elders post is on point for the process where I said I learned lessons :)
Title: Re: Is averting Bad?
Post by: Tirisilex on September 26, 2017, 09:34:09 am
Samana Johann, I've taken notice of your speech. It seems to me that you are really trying to eliminate ego. I notice that you say "My" person.. Who is this My? Maybe you might want to say "This person" that will convey no self more I think.
Title: Re: Is averting Bad?
Post by: Pixie on September 26, 2017, 01:02:59 pm
This talk  from Ajahn Sumedho "Fear and stress in life" might be helpful:

http://dharmaseed.org/talks/audio_player/10/29690.html (http://dharmaseed.org/talks/audio_player/10/29690.html)



_/|\_
Title: Re: Is averting Bad?
Post by: Samana Johann on September 26, 2017, 04:27:19 pm

Off-Topic: hover if liking
Title: Re: Is averting Bad?
Post by: Spiny Norman on September 30, 2017, 01:45:43 am
OK.. I'm doing a couple of things.. I've been meditating and being mindful of for example my Anxiety.. I will acknowledge the anxiety and then I will envision it as a simple form and I will visualize it burning up and it disappears. While this works for me I'm wondering if it is bad to do this?

Is this chronic anxiety, and does it keep coming back?  Do you have the sense it is always in the background, waiting to latch onto something?
Title: Re: Is averting Bad?
Post by: ground on September 30, 2017, 01:55:22 am
I have suffered from irrational anxiety, and rational anxiety.
'rational anxiety' is like 'dry water'  :fu:
Title: Re: Is averting Bad?
Post by: Tirisilex on September 30, 2017, 09:54:55 am
OK.. I'm doing a couple of things.. I've been meditating and being mindful of for example my Anxiety.. I will acknowledge the anxiety and then I will envision it as a simple form and I will visualize it burning up and it disappears. While this works for me I'm wondering if it is bad to do this?

Is this chronic anxiety, and does it keep coming back?  Do you have the sense it is always in the background, waiting to latch onto something?

I get a couple of different forms of anxiety. One is just a random anxious feeling that isn't from any trigger. It just arises.. Then I have Anxiety that arises from the occasional delusional thinking. While I have techniques to help me deal with the delusional thinking itself the anxiety is still a problem. Is it reoccurring yes but it's not cosntant. Mainly I would say about once a week. Sometimes twice.
Title: Re: Is averting Bad?
Post by: Anemephistus on September 30, 2017, 04:00:50 pm
I have suffered from irrational anxiety, and rational anxiety.
'rational anxiety' is like 'dry water'  :fu:

Tell the man facing the rattlesnake about to strike that his water is dry.

I am confronted with real danger sometimes due to my livelihood, my body, like any other, reacts to this and it is expected. My mind remains in focus. It fades as the hormones that created it subside. The anticipatory anxiety however was rooted in no thoughts and would even make it's own if allowed to, engaging it caused it to grow and truth would not sooth the feelings associated with it.  I was in a hole, thinking was like a shovel and I cannot dig myself out of a hole.

So I stopped thinking, and then there was only the feeling, and it would not pass though I could find no reason for it. That was like drinking dry water and trying to live, I was alive but hardly in a place which parched my thirst to be free of this suffering. I controlled my breath, stopped my mind, ate carefully, all looking for peace and slowly it grew worse. I engaged it and asked why it was there, my answer was my body. Medication has allowed me to move in steps to a goal of removing this feeling, today I suffer from it but its impact is far less.

It is possible eventually I would have gotten this far on my own, but that path would have been much farther and the focus required would have meant leaving certain attachments that I am unwilling to give up.
Title: Re: Is averting Bad?
Post by: Samana Johann on September 30, 2017, 04:34:33 pm
Just that been known: it's of cause possible, and also trained, to suppress wholesome fear but that comes back twice and worse, and not easy seen an near cause. That is why dwelloping fear of wrongdoing and moral shame (e.g. virtue, Sila) is first on the medicine of the Buddha, to possible later trace the reason of unwholesome anxiety better, can distinguish them fom each other. To do such: firm Sila, firm abstaining of unskillful conduct, without giving place for reasoning to overstep it.
Title: Re: Is averting Bad?
Post by: ground on September 30, 2017, 11:38:00 pm
I have suffered from irrational anxiety, and rational anxiety.
'rational anxiety' is like 'dry water'  :fu:

Tell the man facing the rattlesnake about to strike that his water is dry.

And then?

If one who is overcome by anxiety is told that anxiety is irrational that does neither eliminate his anxiety nor does the continuation of his anxiety render this anxiety rational.  :fu:
Title: Re: Is averting Bad?
Post by: Spiny Norman on October 01, 2017, 02:48:42 am
OK.. I'm doing a couple of things.. I've been meditating and being mindful of for example my Anxiety.. I will acknowledge the anxiety and then I will envision it as a simple form and I will visualize it burning up and it disappears. While this works for me I'm wondering if it is bad to do this?

Is this chronic anxiety, and does it keep coming back?  Do you have the sense it is always in the background, waiting to latch onto something?

I get a couple of different forms of anxiety. One is just a random anxious feeling that isn't from any trigger. It just arises.. Then I have Anxiety that arises from the occasional delusional thinking. While I have techniques to help me deal with the delusional thinking itself the anxiety is still a problem. Is it reoccurring yes but it's not cosntant. Mainly I would say about once a week. Sometimes twice.

It sounds like you are dealing with it quite well.  I suffer from chronic anxiety and have tried all sorts of things over the years.  What seems to work best for me is just accepting that it's there, and then hopefully moving on to a more constructive thought process or activity.
Title: Re: Is averting Bad?
Post by: Spiny Norman on October 01, 2017, 04:24:46 am
Tell the man facing the rattlesnake about to strike that his water is dry.

Exactly.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight-or-flight_response
Title: Re: Is averting Bad?
Post by: Anemephistus on October 01, 2017, 05:51:30 pm
I have suffered from irrational anxiety, and rational anxiety.
'rational anxiety' is like 'dry water'  :fu:

Tell the man facing the rattlesnake about to strike that his water is dry.

And then?

If one who is overcome by anxiety is told that anxiety is irrational that does neither eliminate his anxiety nor does the continuation of his anxiety render this anxiety rational.  :fu:


There is more than one form this takes, I have expressed my experience with two forms. One arises from reality as it is experienced, the other one for me first seemed like attachment to preconception then became apparent that it was a cerebral-chemical physical malfunction. The first kind I can deal with and have to with relative frequency for my culture and place in the world. The second kind I could endure but not solve. They share an element of feeling but their arising circumstances are very different.

For the first I have been faced many times with very disturbing and dangerous things that have taught me in a non-academic sense that anxiety has a place as long as it is tempered with a disciplined mind. Unless we are free of the attachment to life and can keep that freedom in focus during events that may genuinely present an immediate danger to our continued physical existence we feel anxiety as a rational response. What we do with that determines it's value. Running may be in the best interest of a being caught in a fire or faced with a snake, I assert that this is rational. With disciplined thinking one can make a good decision faster and have more energy to react and find a safe solution to the circumstance hopefully. Training and forethought is best for this.

For the second kind it can be hard to tell if it creates delusion or is based on it. Like using the mind to ask a question to which you already know the answer, what comes first? The question or the answer? For me, after much time and focus it became clear that it was a root of delusional thinking, not the result of it. It can easily be the other way around. Arising from attachment and wrong views and general Avidyā. After days sitting with mine I had an answer, there was no thought, it was in my body and was not based on thinking or not thinking, or breathing or eating, it was physical. For others this may be different. I could sooth my mind but my heart was racing and I was sweating to the point of exhaustion over nothing. I had to devote mental resources to reminding everything arising from the feeling of the truth and the process was very frequent and not always successful.  I was wrestling my mind with my mind.

Determining why we suffer is important, not all feelings arise under the same circumstances and while ultimately it may be able to overcome them, or make them bearable, for me it was physical. I see nothing wrong with the Op's approach save that if these things arise under delusion it may be better to address the root thinking that gives them rise than to deny the feeling that root creates, provided that root is addressable because it may not be in the case of schizophrenia or other illness' effect. As I said though I feel it can easily be either way and a person must find that answer through wisdom, I can only share my experience with this, because the wisdom came from the Dharma and I cannot speak for it, only my own results from learning and practice.

I think nothing irrational can be rendered rational without delusion, which is false, but there is a center between the conditions of having a feeling for an apparent reason in which that feeling provides subjective benefit, having a feeling because of wrong thinking in which it provides no benefit, and having a feeling that creates wrong thinking on it's own without input from the one having it... which has no more benefit than being stuck with a permanent flu and is an issue of health.     
Title: Re: Is averting Bad?
Post by: ground on October 01, 2017, 10:56:46 pm
I have suffered from irrational anxiety, and rational anxiety.
'rational anxiety' is like 'dry water'  :fu:

Tell the man facing the rattlesnake about to strike that his water is dry.

And then?

If one who is overcome by anxiety is told that anxiety is irrational that does neither eliminate his anxiety nor does the continuation of his anxiety render this anxiety rational.  :fu:


There is more than one form this takes, I have expressed my experience with two forms. One arises from reality as it is experienced, the other one for me first seemed like attachment to preconception then became apparent that it was a cerebral-chemical physical malfunction. The first kind I can deal with and have to with relative frequency for my culture and place in the world. The second kind I could endure but not solve. They share an element of feeling but their arising circumstances are very different.

For the first I have been faced many times with very disturbing and dangerous things that have taught me in a non-academic sense that anxiety has a place as long as it is tempered with a disciplined mind. Unless we are free of the attachment to life and can keep that freedom in focus during events that may genuinely present an immediate danger to our continued physical existence we feel anxiety as a rational response. What we do with that determines it's value. Running may be in the best interest of a being caught in a fire or faced with a snake, I assert that this is rational. With disciplined thinking one can make a good decision faster and have more energy to react and find a safe solution to the circumstance hopefully. Training and forethought is best for this.

For the second kind it can be hard to tell if it creates delusion or is based on it. Like using the mind to ask a question to which you already know the answer, what comes first? The question or the answer? For me, after much time and focus it became clear that it was a root of delusional thinking, not the result of it. It can easily be the other way around. Arising from attachment and wrong views and general Avidyā. After days sitting with mine I had an answer, there was no thought, it was in my body and was not based on thinking or not thinking, or breathing or eating, it was physical. For others this may be different. I could sooth my mind but my heart was racing and I was sweating to the point of exhaustion over nothing. I had to devote mental resources to reminding everything arising from the feeling of the truth and the process was very frequent and not always successful.  I was wrestling my mind with my mind.

Determining why we suffer is important, not all feelings arise under the same circumstances and while ultimately it may be able to overcome them, or make them bearable, for me it was physical. I see nothing wrong with the Op's approach save that if these things arise under delusion it may be better to address the root thinking that gives them rise than to deny the feeling that root creates, provided that root is addressable because it may not be in the case of schizophrenia or other illness' effect. As I said though I feel it can easily be either way and a person must find that answer through wisdom, I can only share my experience with this, because the wisdom came from the Dharma and I cannot speak for it, only my own results from learning and practice.

I think nothing irrational can be rendered rational without delusion, which is false, but there is a center between the conditions of having a feeling for an apparent reason in which that feeling provides subjective benefit, having a feeling because of wrong thinking in which it provides no benefit, and having a feeling that creates wrong thinking on it's own without input from the one having it... which has no more benefit than being stuck with a permanent flu and is an issue of health.   

Wow ... So many words just because anxiety has never been rational and will never be rational.

Many people cannot distinguish emotionality from rationality because emotionality may at times entail activities or decisions that  appear to be 'rational' considering the cause X of this emotionality from an outside perspective.

The different chains of causality are these:
Cause X -> emotionality -> activity or decision
Cause X -> rationality -> activity or decision

While rationality always entails appropriate activities or decisions emotionality entails both, at times appropriate and mostly inappropriate activities or decisions.

Rationality is cool processing and never agitated.
Title: Re: Is averting Bad?
Post by: Samana Johann on October 01, 2017, 11:21:34 pm
"activities or decisions" what is or should be the difference?

An ice cold killer does it also "Rationality is cool processing and never agitated", so it seems to be not really a matter of ration that make a different. It's merely to be assumed, that ration works on emotions as well, more centert maybe. So ratio might need either a feather or get rid of it.

Title: Re: Is averting Bad?
Post by: Anemephistus on October 02, 2017, 03:06:10 pm
I have suffered from irrational anxiety, and rational anxiety.
'rational anxiety' is like 'dry water'  :fu:

Tell the man facing the rattlesnake about to strike that his water is dry.

And then?

If one who is overcome by anxiety is told that anxiety is irrational that does neither eliminate his anxiety nor does the continuation of his anxiety render this anxiety rational.  :fu:


There is more than one form this takes, I have expressed my experience with two forms. One arises from reality as it is experienced, the other one for me first seemed like attachment to preconception then became apparent that it was a cerebral-chemical physical malfunction. The first kind I can deal with and have to with relative frequency for my culture and place in the world. The second kind I could endure but not solve. They share an element of feeling but their arising circumstances are very different.

For the first I have been faced many times with very disturbing and dangerous things that have taught me in a non-academic sense that anxiety has a place as long as it is tempered with a disciplined mind. Unless we are free of the attachment to life and can keep that freedom in focus during events that may genuinely present an immediate danger to our continued physical existence we feel anxiety as a rational response. What we do with that determines it's value. Running may be in the best interest of a being caught in a fire or faced with a snake, I assert that this is rational. With disciplined thinking one can make a good decision faster and have more energy to react and find a safe solution to the circumstance hopefully. Training and forethought is best for this.

For the second kind it can be hard to tell if it creates delusion or is based on it. Like using the mind to ask a question to which you already know the answer, what comes first? The question or the answer? For me, after much time and focus it became clear that it was a root of delusional thinking, not the result of it. It can easily be the other way around. Arising from attachment and wrong views and general Avidyā. After days sitting with mine I had an answer, there was no thought, it was in my body and was not based on thinking or not thinking, or breathing or eating, it was physical. For others this may be different. I could sooth my mind but my heart was racing and I was sweating to the point of exhaustion over nothing. I had to devote mental resources to reminding everything arising from the feeling of the truth and the process was very frequent and not always successful.  I was wrestling my mind with my mind.

Determining why we suffer is important, not all feelings arise under the same circumstances and while ultimately it may be able to overcome them, or make them bearable, for me it was physical. I see nothing wrong with the Op's approach save that if these things arise under delusion it may be better to address the root thinking that gives them rise than to deny the feeling that root creates, provided that root is addressable because it may not be in the case of schizophrenia or other illness' effect. As I said though I feel it can easily be either way and a person must find that answer through wisdom, I can only share my experience with this, because the wisdom came from the Dharma and I cannot speak for it, only my own results from learning and practice.

I think nothing irrational can be rendered rational without delusion, which is false, but there is a center between the conditions of having a feeling for an apparent reason in which that feeling provides subjective benefit, having a feeling because of wrong thinking in which it provides no benefit, and having a feeling that creates wrong thinking on it's own without input from the one having it... which has no more benefit than being stuck with a permanent flu and is an issue of health.   

Wow ... So many words just because anxiety has never been rational and will never be rational.

Many people cannot distinguish emotionality from rationality because emotionality may at times entail activities or decisions that  appear to be 'rational' considering the cause X of this emotionality from an outside perspective.

The different chains of causality are these:
Cause X -> emotionality -> activity or decision
Cause X -> rationality -> activity or decision

While rationality always entails appropriate activities or decisions emotionality entails both, at times appropriate and mostly inappropriate activities or decisions.

Rationality is cool processing and never agitated.

I concede that anxiety itself as a separate emotional state has no rationality. This is true of all emotion. I face danger several times a month at least, I have conveyed that the emotional state we have discussed has functioned as a tool to augment my reactions tempered with training and discipline. It's cause, the stimuli bringing it into being can result in it being a rational physical and psychological response to danger. It's what one does with it that matters.

You have strong logic, we may have to agree to disagree on this point. I respect what you are saying, my experience with this differs from your point however.
Title: Re: Is averting Bad?
Post by: Samana Johann on October 02, 2017, 04:13:27 pm
For sure all of mindstates have "ration" as root. Past thought and current thought, and their conclution. If not "liking" to be afraid, what can make you fear, aside of what not understand?
Title: Re: Is averting Bad?
Post by: Anemephistus on October 02, 2017, 06:12:29 pm
For sure all of mindstates have "ration" as root. Past thought and current thought, and their conclution. If not "liking" to be afraid, what can make you fear, aside of what not understand?

Evolution of the body as it has happened contributes to what I am giving as my example of what makes me fear that I understand. Are you requesting an example of what gives rise to this ? I would be alright with sharing an example, but the open forum is not the place for that as most of my examples are very violent and this is a place for peace and cultivating peace and understanding.

Needing to act quickly in response to violence without much time to consider a course of action when the circumstances arise suddenly is a basic transmission of the circumstances I refer to ...Understanding that there is hate and ignorance and that it has become manifest in violence and I must physically intervene or have others do so at that moment creates anxiety for the safety of those around me and myself.

This passes quickly after the situation has been quelled. Understanding what is happening and knowing what to do about it still does not free me of the fear of it though, because it is actually good to be afraid of certain things as long as it does not control me or my actions. The desire to keep everyone safe and concern that I might not be able to is ever present in these moments I describe. The anxiety presses me to quick action and serves as a tool. It helps me consider what is most important and in what order things matter when there is not enough time to do everything that would be ideal. 
Title: Re: Is averting Bad?
Post by: ground on October 02, 2017, 10:22:31 pm

Many people cannot distinguish emotionality from rationality because emotionality may at times entail activities or decisions that  appear to be 'rational' considering the cause X of this emotionality from an outside perspective.

The different chains of causality are these:
Cause X -> emotionality -> activity or decision
Cause X -> rationality -> activity or decision

While rationality always entails appropriate activities or decisions emotionality entails both, at times appropriate and mostly inappropriate activities or decisions.

Rationality is cool processing and never agitated.

I concede that anxiety itself as a separate emotional state has no rationality. This is true of all emotion. I face danger several times a month at least, I have conveyed that the emotional state we have discussed has functioned as a tool to augment my reactions tempered with training and discipline. It's cause, the stimuli bringing it into being can result in it being a rational physical and psychological response to danger. It's what one does with it that matters.
Depends. If one's aim is liberation then it is relevant whether one is affected by emotionality or not because nibbida/disenchantment and viraga/dispassion can only be realized based on rationality. As long as any kind of emotionality is affirmed one will be bound by 'this is me' and 'this is mine'.

You have strong logic, we may have to agree to disagree on this point. I respect what you are saying, my experience with this differs from your point however.
My logic, i.e. linguistic expression, is valid knowledge. Individuals' aims vary therefore a diversity of linguistic expressions arises in given contexts.
Title: Re: Is averting Bad?
Post by: Samana Johann on October 02, 2017, 10:55:08 pm
For sure all of mindstates have "ration" as root. Past thought and current thought, and their conclution. If not "liking" to be afraid, what can make you fear, aside of what not understand?


Evolution of the body as it has happened contributes to what I am giving as my example of what makes me fear that I understand. Are you requesting an example of what gives rise to this ? I would be alright with sharing an example, but the open forum is not the place for that as most of my examples are very violent and this is a place for peace and cultivating peace and understanding.

Needing to act quickly in response to violence without much time to consider a course of action when the circumstances arise suddenly is a basic transmission of the circumstances I refer to ...Understanding that there is hate and ignorance and that it has become manifest in violence and I must physically intervene or have others do so at that moment creates anxiety for the safety of those around me and myself.

This passes quickly after the situation has been quelled. Understanding what is happening and knowing what to do about it still does not free me of the fear of it though, because it is actually good to be afraid of certain things as long as it does not control me or my actions. The desire to keep everyone safe and concern that I might not be able to is ever present in these moments I describe. The anxiety presses me to quick action and serves as a tool. It helps me consider what is most important and in what order things matter when there is not enough time to do everything that would be ideal. 


Devaduta Sutta: The Deva Messengers (http://www.accesstoinsight.eu/tipitaka/mn/mn.130.than_en.html)

My person does not talk on things out of reason, or does he speaks about things he does not know, situations he did not come accross well. Sila, Sila, Sila... judging of what is skillful and unskillful anxiety and change possible behaviour and circumstances.
It is nonsens to train the mind without the base requirements, thats terrible danger and one should understand that protection is done be not conducting future causes (e.g. Sila is one protection at first place, goodwill, compassion, equanimity, sympatic joy, mindfulness, according to the situation, the protection of others in ones sphere of deeds) There is no other protection.

One does not must anything. Deeds and what ever are caused by choices, thoughts, what ever rationality in the wordly sphere.

In the sphere of improper conduct, there will be always fear, and it's actually lead by fear. It's importand to think about what makes one fear to do not chance ways and circumstances.
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