Author Topic: Is averting Bad?  (Read 381 times)

Offline Anemephistus

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Re: Is averting Bad?
« Reply #30 on: October 02, 2017, 03:06:10 pm »
I have suffered from irrational anxiety, and rational anxiety.
'rational anxiety' is like 'dry water'  :fu:

Tell the man facing the rattlesnake about to strike that his water is dry.

And then?

If one who is overcome by anxiety is told that anxiety is irrational that does neither eliminate his anxiety nor does the continuation of his anxiety render this anxiety rational.  :fu:


There is more than one form this takes, I have expressed my experience with two forms. One arises from reality as it is experienced, the other one for me first seemed like attachment to preconception then became apparent that it was a cerebral-chemical physical malfunction. The first kind I can deal with and have to with relative frequency for my culture and place in the world. The second kind I could endure but not solve. They share an element of feeling but their arising circumstances are very different.

For the first I have been faced many times with very disturbing and dangerous things that have taught me in a non-academic sense that anxiety has a place as long as it is tempered with a disciplined mind. Unless we are free of the attachment to life and can keep that freedom in focus during events that may genuinely present an immediate danger to our continued physical existence we feel anxiety as a rational response. What we do with that determines it's value. Running may be in the best interest of a being caught in a fire or faced with a snake, I assert that this is rational. With disciplined thinking one can make a good decision faster and have more energy to react and find a safe solution to the circumstance hopefully. Training and forethought is best for this.

For the second kind it can be hard to tell if it creates delusion or is based on it. Like using the mind to ask a question to which you already know the answer, what comes first? The question or the answer? For me, after much time and focus it became clear that it was a root of delusional thinking, not the result of it. It can easily be the other way around. Arising from attachment and wrong views and general Avidyā. After days sitting with mine I had an answer, there was no thought, it was in my body and was not based on thinking or not thinking, or breathing or eating, it was physical. For others this may be different. I could sooth my mind but my heart was racing and I was sweating to the point of exhaustion over nothing. I had to devote mental resources to reminding everything arising from the feeling of the truth and the process was very frequent and not always successful.  I was wrestling my mind with my mind.

Determining why we suffer is important, not all feelings arise under the same circumstances and while ultimately it may be able to overcome them, or make them bearable, for me it was physical. I see nothing wrong with the Op's approach save that if these things arise under delusion it may be better to address the root thinking that gives them rise than to deny the feeling that root creates, provided that root is addressable because it may not be in the case of schizophrenia or other illness' effect. As I said though I feel it can easily be either way and a person must find that answer through wisdom, I can only share my experience with this, because the wisdom came from the Dharma and I cannot speak for it, only my own results from learning and practice.

I think nothing irrational can be rendered rational without delusion, which is false, but there is a center between the conditions of having a feeling for an apparent reason in which that feeling provides subjective benefit, having a feeling because of wrong thinking in which it provides no benefit, and having a feeling that creates wrong thinking on it's own without input from the one having it... which has no more benefit than being stuck with a permanent flu and is an issue of health.   

Wow ... So many words just because anxiety has never been rational and will never be rational.

Many people cannot distinguish emotionality from rationality because emotionality may at times entail activities or decisions that  appear to be 'rational' considering the cause X of this emotionality from an outside perspective.

The different chains of causality are these:
Cause X -> emotionality -> activity or decision
Cause X -> rationality -> activity or decision

While rationality always entails appropriate activities or decisions emotionality entails both, at times appropriate and mostly inappropriate activities or decisions.

Rationality is cool processing and never agitated.

I concede that anxiety itself as a separate emotional state has no rationality. This is true of all emotion. I face danger several times a month at least, I have conveyed that the emotional state we have discussed has functioned as a tool to augment my reactions tempered with training and discipline. It's cause, the stimuli bringing it into being can result in it being a rational physical and psychological response to danger. It's what one does with it that matters.

You have strong logic, we may have to agree to disagree on this point. I respect what you are saying, my experience with this differs from your point however.

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Is averting Bad?
« Reply #31 on: October 02, 2017, 04:13:27 pm »
For sure all of mindstates have "ration" as root. Past thought and current thought, and their conclution. If not "liking" to be afraid, what can make you fear, aside of what not understand?
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Offline Anemephistus

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Re: Is averting Bad?
« Reply #32 on: October 02, 2017, 06:12:29 pm »
For sure all of mindstates have "ration" as root. Past thought and current thought, and their conclution. If not "liking" to be afraid, what can make you fear, aside of what not understand?

Evolution of the body as it has happened contributes to what I am giving as my example of what makes me fear that I understand. Are you requesting an example of what gives rise to this ? I would be alright with sharing an example, but the open forum is not the place for that as most of my examples are very violent and this is a place for peace and cultivating peace and understanding.

Needing to act quickly in response to violence without much time to consider a course of action when the circumstances arise suddenly is a basic transmission of the circumstances I refer to ...Understanding that there is hate and ignorance and that it has become manifest in violence and I must physically intervene or have others do so at that moment creates anxiety for the safety of those around me and myself.

This passes quickly after the situation has been quelled. Understanding what is happening and knowing what to do about it still does not free me of the fear of it though, because it is actually good to be afraid of certain things as long as it does not control me or my actions. The desire to keep everyone safe and concern that I might not be able to is ever present in these moments I describe. The anxiety presses me to quick action and serves as a tool. It helps me consider what is most important and in what order things matter when there is not enough time to do everything that would be ideal. 

Offline ground

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Re: Is averting Bad?
« Reply #33 on: October 02, 2017, 10:22:31 pm »

Many people cannot distinguish emotionality from rationality because emotionality may at times entail activities or decisions that  appear to be 'rational' considering the cause X of this emotionality from an outside perspective.

The different chains of causality are these:
Cause X -> emotionality -> activity or decision
Cause X -> rationality -> activity or decision

While rationality always entails appropriate activities or decisions emotionality entails both, at times appropriate and mostly inappropriate activities or decisions.

Rationality is cool processing and never agitated.

I concede that anxiety itself as a separate emotional state has no rationality. This is true of all emotion. I face danger several times a month at least, I have conveyed that the emotional state we have discussed has functioned as a tool to augment my reactions tempered with training and discipline. It's cause, the stimuli bringing it into being can result in it being a rational physical and psychological response to danger. It's what one does with it that matters.
Depends. If one's aim is liberation then it is relevant whether one is affected by emotionality or not because nibbida/disenchantment and viraga/dispassion can only be realized based on rationality. As long as any kind of emotionality is affirmed one will be bound by 'this is me' and 'this is mine'.

You have strong logic, we may have to agree to disagree on this point. I respect what you are saying, my experience with this differs from your point however.
My logic, i.e. linguistic expression, is valid knowledge. Individuals' aims vary therefore a diversity of linguistic expressions arises in given contexts.

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Is averting Bad?
« Reply #34 on: October 02, 2017, 10:55:08 pm »
For sure all of mindstates have "ration" as root. Past thought and current thought, and their conclution. If not "liking" to be afraid, what can make you fear, aside of what not understand?


Evolution of the body as it has happened contributes to what I am giving as my example of what makes me fear that I understand. Are you requesting an example of what gives rise to this ? I would be alright with sharing an example, but the open forum is not the place for that as most of my examples are very violent and this is a place for peace and cultivating peace and understanding.

Needing to act quickly in response to violence without much time to consider a course of action when the circumstances arise suddenly is a basic transmission of the circumstances I refer to ...Understanding that there is hate and ignorance and that it has become manifest in violence and I must physically intervene or have others do so at that moment creates anxiety for the safety of those around me and myself.

This passes quickly after the situation has been quelled. Understanding what is happening and knowing what to do about it still does not free me of the fear of it though, because it is actually good to be afraid of certain things as long as it does not control me or my actions. The desire to keep everyone safe and concern that I might not be able to is ever present in these moments I describe. The anxiety presses me to quick action and serves as a tool. It helps me consider what is most important and in what order things matter when there is not enough time to do everything that would be ideal. 


Devaduta Sutta: The Deva Messengers

My person does not talk on things out of reason, or does he speaks about things he does not know, situations he did not come accross well. Sila, Sila, Sila... judging of what is skillful and unskillful anxiety and change possible behaviour and circumstances.
It is nonsens to train the mind without the base requirements, thats terrible danger and one should understand that protection is done be not conducting future causes (e.g. Sila is one protection at first place, goodwill, compassion, equanimity, sympatic joy, mindfulness, according to the situation, the protection of others in ones sphere of deeds) There is no other protection.

One does not must anything. Deeds and what ever are caused by choices, thoughts, what ever rationality in the wordly sphere.

In the sphere of improper conduct, there will be always fear, and it's actually lead by fear. It's importand to think about what makes one fear to do not chance ways and circumstances.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2017, 11:10:11 pm by Samana Johann »
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