Author Topic: Is changing your mind same as lying? Breaking promises.  (Read 256 times)

Offline Samana Johann

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Is changing your mind same as lying? Breaking promises.
« on: August 23, 2017, 10:47:36 pm »
Is changing your mind same as lying? Breaking promises (origin)

Quote
asked by Digity on DW

Suppose someone asks you to do something that you're on the fence about doing, but you agree to it anyway. Now suppose time passes and you regret the initial agreement and decide not to follow through on it, but give some sort of explanation for why you aren't. Do you consider that a form of lying, since you told the person something that you didn't follow through on?


In short:

Yes, breaking promis is unskilfull and a misconduct in regard of virtue.

If done deliberatly it's a classic ly, what ever reson it was.
If changing one mind later, it's false dealing similar to break a contract.

If a promise can not be fullfilled, out of reasons they are not in the sphere of the promis-maker and the promis-maker did also not possible had a chance to foresee this, than it is not a fault.

When one looks carefully and honest, one might see that most of the promises he/she did and did not fullfill have been faults.

A very serious matter is the matter of vows. Think how many take precepts, knowing that they will break them. Doing such is breaking the precepts while asking after them.

Changing ones mind from unskillful to skillful is not wrong, nevertheless one will face consequences of the breaking of promises, since mostly not understandable for others.

That preasure is mostly the hindrence for changing ones mind to a better.

Lets see, maybe my person is able to record a short talk on it.

Audio: 20170623_001.amr

It has become 45min of talk and the matter is really a big one, but can solved with simply being honest and good estimation of ones own capacity and capability. So my person thinks its good to talk and ask much in this matter for may cases to be helped to staighten views and ways.

Here in written words again. When changing the mind to skillful things and therefore not able to keep a promis, it is not unskilful when leaving a contract. Nevertheless one will need to bear the fruits of having made unskillful promises before and will mostly be confronted with consequences and claims for repay or fullfilling the contract.

My person wrote on the topic before here and maybe one might find there also useful warnings and ideas for ones own better way.

Erfog/Misserfolg im Geschäft-Success/fail in trade-ជោគជ័យ/បរាជ័យក្នុងការជួញដូរ

Depts, but to whom?

Could not find the one in regard of the possible effects on not keeping promises for a ascetic, if having been the receiver of a promise. Some might be in German.

Some parts of the Audio generously transcript:

Quote
Valued Upasaka, Upasika,
dear listeners,

Atma, my person tries to answer these questions. Pardon my bad English skills and my person's less appealing talking, especially in recording by not seeing another's face.

Question in regard of breaking promises.
The question in regard of changing one's mind.

In regard of breaking precepts and doing unskillful things is actually a very important matter, especially in Western Buddhists. Why? Because there is much of teaching people in equanimity and try to keep them happy instead of to charge rightly and to be honest. So this tendency more into the direction of "let them feel good" rather than to encourage and nourish signs of higher vijja, and it is often very sad to see when people are actually seeing some problems, and at the moment they think about their actions, others come and say: Oh, it's no problem. Don't think so. And in this way they cut off a matter that is very important, to be honest, simply honest, and to take the precepts very serious.
Is it a break of the precepts if one does not keep to one's promise?
My person thinks it's clear if you have a thought that you will not keep the promise and you tell the promise you deliberately cheat people, and such is a really nasty lie. There are maybe lighter occasions where we often lie in such a way [ ... ?] There are situations where one uses lying and promising to things to be light (?). In a way we make, one makes promises to gain honour, or to win a favour. Either from the receiver of that promise, or people watching that act. You see such every day in politics, if you're someone who watches news and is still interested in such things.
So, to make a promise means to make a contract. When you give a promise you make a contract. That's it. Because other people rely on your promise. And relying on your promise, if you break it, the other part loses. He can lose a little, or he can lose very much. He can even lose his life, sticking to your promise. So breaking a promise is not a light thing. Really not a light thing. When you change your mind later your really have to be careful what you are doing. It's like if you have a contract with a company, for example you take on a car by leasing. (If the right word is leasing in English?) You take the car first, you use it, and you pay later. Is it possible that you say: "Oh, I don't like it. I'd like to have another one." Or whatever? So as soon as you have a contract, you have to stick to the contract. And if you really like to leave the contract, you have to tell it, and search for ways how to solve it.

……

24:52

When looking exact, you will not find easy excuses that you cannot fulfill a certain promise.

……

25:18

Know that this is a very ... for the most... That is actually one reason most monks would not really get verbal[ly] in cont(r)act with you. So when you offer something, that you will make something, or do something, good monks would not verbal[ly] agree with it. They just would stay silent. Why? - so that you have most possibilities that you don't come into the problem of promise. It's a matter of deep impact.

So, of course there are reasons not to keep a promise. It is like with a contract. There are reasons to quit the contract, to step out of the contract. And similar it is with the promise you made. But it's not possible in a way of just: "Oh, a change of my mind." If such is happening, actually it happens often, it is very needed to tell it. To say: "I will not come", and to ask for forgiveness.

Nevertheless the karma of the act is still there. But you and also the other will feel better if knowing what's the fact. So others will not continue to build on it. For breaking a promise can cause very much damage. So it's good not to take it very light and easy. And it's good to make not much promises. And if, keep to it. You will not only be honoured in this life, but also in the next existence. There is just one situation where you are nearly in the right to break a worldly promise you had made. That is the time when you start to walk the path. Especially when you go into the homeless life. To give up everything, to change the mind really, in a helpful way for everyone, is a reason that you may not stick to your promises.

There might be many people that are not happy with you.


Much joy and insight in exploring the topic in the deep forest of the mind.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 11:08:20 pm by Samana Johann »
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Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: Is changing your mind same as lying? Breaking promises.
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2017, 02:10:37 am »
In short:

Yes, breaking promis is unskilfull and a misconduct in regard of virtue.  :lmfao:

The question does not even mention the word "promise". The answer to the question is "no". People change their minds about trivial social matters. It is not false speech & not breaking precept. :namaste:

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Is changing your mind same as lying? Breaking promises.
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2017, 02:44:48 am »
Well for one without any virtue, cheating, lying, revile, falsehood as normal as the sleep, such can not easy be grasped. But for those delight in virtue, delight in discover the mind and reflect for themselves that was told.

They might, since not grasping on names, also understood the words promise, contract, changing ones mind and resolve buy body speech and mind.
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Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: Is changing your mind same as lying? Breaking promises.
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2017, 01:11:47 pm »
Well for one without any virtue...

The original question is unrelated to virtue. That Nyom has misconstrued, misrespresented & falsified the original question shows it is Nyom Johann that is engaged in false speech. It shows Johann not behaving like a Samana (peaceful one) but behaving like a Yama. This is another example of Nyom Johann attempting to unnecessarily intrude or invade the psyche of lay people & cause the lay people to feel guilt & shame when it is not necessary.

False speech is deliberately lying. False speech is not changing your mind about a trivial social matter.

 :eek:

Quote
Śamana (शमन, “the settler”):—One of the epiteths of Yama, the vedic God of death. Yama rules over the kingdom of the dead and binds humankind according to the fruits of their karma.

Source: Wisdom Library: Hinduism
  :teehee:   :lmfao:

https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/samana

Quote
Samaṇa; The Pali word for shramana (a wandering monk; a shramana is one who renounces the world and leads an ascetic life for the purpose of spiritual development and liberation)

Source: Wisdom Library:   :om: :namaste: Buddhism
  :namaste:  :om:

https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/samana
« Last Edit: August 24, 2017, 01:23:39 pm by VisuddhiRaptor »

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Is changing your mind same as lying? Breaking promises.
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2017, 02:47:45 pm »
Oh, Element, Dhammadathu, David, shows even planty samples of right speech an not speaking what is not true, incl. faking third part recources. What use of would be much investment. Not out of reason did the Buddha told, such people are capable to do anything, those of no fear in telling deliberate lies, running around in disguise in seek for new how do not know his kind yet.
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Offline IgnoringTheAversion

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Re: Is changing your mind same as lying? Breaking promises.
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2017, 06:38:19 am »
To state that every promise made is some sort of permanent contract, and to forget that a promise is a 2-way street, is clearly wrong view. The view expressed by the OP is view that only benefits debtors.

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Re: Is changing your mind same as lying? Breaking promises.
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2017, 07:33:20 am »
To state that every promise made is some sort of permanent contract, and to forget that a promise is a 2-way street, is clearly wrong view. The view expressed by the OP is view that only benefits debtors.

Nobody says that, or speaks from permanent. A promis is a contract that is either fullfilled, broken or  null and void.

And no, actions in regard of cause and effect are no "two-way-streets", one keeps a contract, one breaks.

My person does not think that the talk was listened, but simply "IgnoringTheAversion" arised unattentive to come to the post, or?
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Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: Is changing your mind same as lying? Breaking promises.
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2017, 07:32:02 pm »
To state that every promise made is some sort of permanent contract, and to forget that a promise is a 2-way street, is clearly wrong view.

Well & truthfully spoken.  :pray:

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Is changing your mind same as lying? Breaking promises.
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2017, 09:17:37 pm »
Really? Can such be done with a certain unskilled intent? Is it so easy to keep the promis of abstaining to speak what is not true, from wrong speech?

Is it possible to speak the truth, or use it, to actually maintain a ly? What do you think? Would back-stabbing and dastardly using speaking "truth" to defuse a context, be a break of the promise one made and possible even use this promise "i am someone keeping precepts" to receive certain gain?
« Last Edit: September 03, 2017, 10:15:33 pm by Samana Johann »
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Offline IgnoringTheAversion

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Re: Is changing your mind same as lying? Breaking promises.
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2017, 09:25:44 pm »
To state that every promise made is some sort of permanent contract, and to forget that a promise is a 2-way street, is clearly wrong view. The view expressed by the OP is view that only benefits debtors.

Nobody says that, or speaks from permanent. A promis is a contract that is either fullfilled, broken or  null and void.

And no, actions in regard of cause and effect are no "two-way-streets", one keeps a contract, one breaks.

My person does not think that the talk was listened, but simply "IgnoringTheAversion" arised unattentive to come to the post, or?

Look, and I only speak from things that are familiar to me: let's say I was a contractor, and i contracted out my body to lift stones for someone. Let's say I pulled my back doing it when I was almost done with the work and wanted to stop, but the person says "I know perfectly well you can finish the job, but your just being a pussy, keep working", then who is in the wrong for the work not getting done?

One thing that really bothers me is people who actually think "calmness" is some sort of goal that needs to be reached. I hate meditation, because the more I try to control myself the more I spiral into self-hatred and misery. But yes, I came to the post unattentive because I didn't read all the horseshit that the elders of the past said I should be doing with my life, what can I do oh great one :jinsyx:

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Re: Is changing your mind same as lying? Breaking promises.
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2017, 01:06:45 am »
To state that every promise made is some sort of permanent contract, and to forget that a promise is a 2-way street, is clearly wrong view. The view expressed by the OP is view that only benefits debtors.


Nobody says that, or speaks from permanent. A promis is a contract that is either fullfilled, broken or  null and void.

And no, actions in regard of cause and effect are no "two-way-streets", one keeps a contract, one breaks.

My person does not think that the talk was listened, but simply "IgnoringTheAversion" arised unattentive to come to the post, or?


Look, and I only speak from things that are familiar to me: let's say I was a contractor, and i contracted out my body to lift stones for someone. Let's say I pulled my back doing it when I was almost done with the work and wanted to stop, but the person says "I know perfectly well you can finish the job, but your just being a pussy, keep working", then who is in the wrong for the work not getting done?

As you do not fullfill the contract, you would need to find or except a solution. If nothing further was agreed, the work giver has much freedom, being generous and having empathy or to make a gain out of it. From a kammic perspective, as long as you seek not for having an unfair benefit, there is not much problem if the contract ends here an both agreement. There are so many solutions, even that you fullfill it, hiring somebody else. But if you think that your problem gives you a right to break it, that would be wrong. In wordly leagal systems there are certain regulations to either prevent from unfairness but mostly prefer the person who is common seen as weaker, which is from a kammic view not always good, but at least the issue of others if not pursuit a claim.

One thing that really bothers me is people who actually think "calmness" is some sort of goal that needs to be reached. I hate meditation, because the more I try to control myself the more I spiral into self-hatred and misery. But yes, I came to the post unattentive because I didn't read all the horseshit that the elders of the past said I should be doing with my life, what can I do oh great one :jinsyx:

One time above, then doing the worm. Just sober, and breathing deep in and out, when greed or aversion arise helps. It's not so smart to go in into "new" thing with certain preoccupations. Certainly there is lack of gratitude and therefore not so much respect. All one does on such ways is hurting one self again an cuts one of little by little, to get helpful advices and gain benefical new aspects. If you actually would know where peace can be found, or if you woul have it, why then aversion, greed or not knowing whats going on.

As for the case that one woul have made a promis or resolve, to not accept support, or to disregard elders and wise, there is no problem at all, to let go of that promise for taking on a more skillful way. How ever, it might be that "friends" are not happy about you new way, and claim, but here, there is no need to give compensation since one follows the natures law, like if a social wordlily law would say that the work giver has to act in cases of health isdues of the work taker, this and that. In changing to skillful ways and stop an harming resolve, one has no more bounds to keep the resolve. Of cause wordily usuals or laws coul still claim, but it would not touch one by heart or make any sleepless night. Even if beaten, one is not hurt, but protected by natural blamelessness. Think on the storie of Angolimala:

Quote
from: Wisdom over justice

At the same time, though, the Buddha never encouraged his followers to seek retribution, i.e., punishment for old wrongs. The conflict between retributive justice and true happiness is well illustrated by the famous story of Aṅgulimāla (MN 86). Aṅgulimāla was a bandit who had killed so many people—the Canon counts at least 100; the Commentary, 999—that he wore a garland (māla) made of their fingers (aṅguli). Yet after an encounter with the Buddha, he had such an extreme change of heart that he abandoned his violent ways, awakened a sense of compassion, and eventually became an arahant.

The story is a popular one, and most of us like to identify with Aṅgulimāla: If a person with his history could gain awakening, there’s hope for us all. But in identifying with him, we forget the feelings of those he had terrorized and the relatives of those he had killed. After all, he had literally gotten away with murder. It’s easy to understand, then, as the story tells us, that when Aṅgulimāla was going for alms after his awakening, people would throw stones at him, and he’d return from his almsround, “his head broken open and dripping with blood, his bowl broken, and his outer robe ripped to shreds.” As the Buddha reassured him, his wounds were nothing compared to the sufferings he would have undergone if he hadn’t reached awakening. And if the outraged people had fully satisfied their thirst for justice, meting out the suffering they thought he deserved, he wouldn’t have had the chance to reach awakening at all. So his was a case in which the end of suffering took precedence over justice in any common sense of the word.

Aṅgulimāla’s case illustrates a general principle stated in AN 3:101: If the workings of kamma required strict, tit-for-tat justice—with your having to experience the consequences of each act just as you inflicted it on others—there’s no way that anyone could reach the end of suffering. The reason we can reach awakening is because even though actions of a certain type give a corresponding type of result, the intensity of how that result is felt is determined, not only by the original action, but also—and more importantly—by our state of mind when the results ripen. If you’ve developed unlimited goodwill and equanimity, and have trained well in virtue, discernment, and the ability to be overcome neither by pleasure nor pain, then when the results of past bad actions ripen, you’ll hardly experience them at all. If you haven’t trained yourself in these ways, then even the results of a trifling bad act can consign you to hell...


Hope that releases a little from aversion and brings some or much joy, thing things from different angles, more proper for being not so heavy but lighter.
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Offline IgnoringTheAversion

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Re: Is changing your mind same as lying? Breaking promises.
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2017, 04:37:56 am »
to be honest here, (the irony in this), i like to trick people into telling me something I already know. This feels like "realization", or "enlightenment", but I've known this to be a delusion for some time now. I never really know what is or isn't an attachment, because to try to do away with attachment feels like an attachment.

without further ado, i respect your more complicated and wordy answer, ill read it again to see if i learned anything from it...

namaste

 


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