Author Topic: Is self real?  (Read 1499 times)

Offline francis

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Re: Is self real?
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2017, 09:26:57 pm »
Hi bahman,

The Buddha taught no-self (anatta), and that that what we consider as a  ‘self’ or ‘I’ is comprised of nothing more than the five aggregates (skandhas) — form, feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness.

There is no ‘self’ of ‘I’ to be found in any of the aggregates, rather it’s the aggregates working seamlessly together, that create the illusion of a ‘self’ or ‘I’. 

For a good explanation of how it works see The Five Aggregates.

 I think there are Six Aggregates the last one would be Decision.

Hi bahman,

Why do think there needs to be a sixth aggregate — Decision?
"Enlightenment, for a wave in the ocean, is the moment the wave realises it is water." - Thich Nhat Hanh

Offline IdleChater

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Re: Is self real?
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2017, 08:33:39 am »
Hi bahman,

The Buddha taught no-self (anatta), and that that what we consider as a  ‘self’ or ‘I’ is comprised of nothing more than the five aggregates (skandhas) — form, feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness.

There is no ‘self’ of ‘I’ to be found in any of the aggregates, rather it’s the aggregates working seamlessly together, that create the illusion of a ‘self’ or ‘I’. 

For a good explanation of how it works see The Five Aggregates.

 I think there are Six Aggregates the last one would be Decision.

Hi bahman,

Why do think there needs to be a sixth aggregate — Decision?

Decisions would fall under Mental Formation, dontcha think?

Offline bahman

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Re: Is self real?
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2017, 09:59:02 am »
Hi bahman,

The Buddha taught no-self (anatta), and that that what we consider as a  ‘self’ or ‘I’ is comprised of nothing more than the five aggregates (skandhas) — form, feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness.

There is no ‘self’ of ‘I’ to be found in any of the aggregates, rather it’s the aggregates working seamlessly together, that create the illusion of a ‘self’ or ‘I’. 

For a good explanation of how it works see The Five Aggregates.

 I think there are Six Aggregates the last one would be Decision.

Hi bahman,

Why do think there needs to be a sixth aggregate — Decision?

 Because it is not a passive act like experience. We act or create something from nothing. In another word, it is self-caused.

Offline francis

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Re: Is self real?
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2017, 01:20:21 am »
Hi bahman,

The Buddha taught no-self (anatta), and that that what we consider as a  ‘self’ or ‘I’ is comprised of nothing more than the five aggregates (skandhas) — form, feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness.

There is no ‘self’ of ‘I’ to be found in any of the aggregates, rather it’s the aggregates working seamlessly together, that create the illusion of a ‘self’ or ‘I’. 

For a good explanation of how it works see The Five Aggregates.

 I think there are Six Aggregates the last one would be Decision.

Hi bahman,

Why do think there needs to be a sixth aggregate — Decision?

Decisions would fall under Mental Formation, dontcha think?

HI IdleChater,

Yes I agree, or perhaps with the fifth aggregate consciousness.

"Enlightenment, for a wave in the ocean, is the moment the wave realises it is water." - Thich Nhat Hanh

Offline francis

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Re: Is self real?
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2017, 01:22:38 am »
Hi bahman,

The Buddha taught no-self (anatta), and that that what we consider as a  ‘self’ or ‘I’ is comprised of nothing more than the five aggregates (skandhas) — form, feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness.

There is no ‘self’ of ‘I’ to be found in any of the aggregates, rather it’s the aggregates working seamlessly together, that create the illusion of a ‘self’ or ‘I’. 

For a good explanation of how it works see The Five Aggregates.

 I think there are Six Aggregates the last one would be Decision.

Hi bahman,

Why do think there needs to be a sixth aggregate — Decision?

 Because it is not a passive act like experience. We act or create something from nothing. In another word, it is self-caused.

Hi bahman,

Yes, but there is no self to cause it.

I have provided a more comprehensive explanation in the “Wanting and self” thread (by bahman).
"Enlightenment, for a wave in the ocean, is the moment the wave realises it is water." - Thich Nhat Hanh

Offline bahman

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Re: Is self real?
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2017, 10:04:59 am »
Hi bahman,

The Buddha taught no-self (anatta), and that that what we consider as a  ‘self’ or ‘I’ is comprised of nothing more than the five aggregates (skandhas) — form, feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness.

There is no ‘self’ of ‘I’ to be found in any of the aggregates, rather it’s the aggregates working seamlessly together, that create the illusion of a ‘self’ or ‘I’. 

For a good explanation of how it works see The Five Aggregates.

 I think there are Six Aggregates the last one would be Decision.

Hi bahman,

Why do think there needs to be a sixth aggregate — Decision?

 Because it is not a passive act like experience. We act or create something from nothing. In another word, it is self-caused.

Hi bahman,

Yes, but there is no self to cause it.

I have provided a more comprehensive explanation in the “Wanting and self” thread (by bahman).

 You need a self if you really believe that you cause a decision. Otherwise decision is an illusion.

Offline francis

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Re: Is self real?
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2017, 04:49:27 am »
You need a self if you really believe that you cause a decision. Otherwise decision is an illusion.


Hi bahman,

Decision is an illusion.

We think we make decisions, but in reality our decisions are already made for us in our brain before we realise we have made the decision. 

It all goes back to survival instincts tempered with our upbringing, society, conditioning, education, language, perceptions, values etc. Buddhism explains this as dependent origination.

See note 24 The Kaccayanagotta Sutta. ‘It may seem contradictory to our way of thinking about ourselves and our actions to have in this list voluntary mental activity preceding consciousness. I, for example, usually think that "I" am consciously directing "my" mental activity. Should we not say that consciousness precedes mental activity? Actual experiments conducted by modern psychologists and neurophysiologists show otherwise.’

In particular, Footnote to the 2003 Reith Lectures by Professor Michael E. McIntyre FRS, University of Cambridge. Where it is explained how the brain actively fits internal models to data from the outside world.

Not convinced? This type of information about decision making is also used in Neuromarketing. ‘Human decision-making is both a conscious and non-conscious process in the brain (Glanert, 2012). Human brains process over 90% of information non-consciously, below controlled awareness; this information has a large influence in the decision-making process.’
"Enlightenment, for a wave in the ocean, is the moment the wave realises it is water." - Thich Nhat Hanh

Offline bahman

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Re: Is self real?
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2017, 07:50:00 am »
You need a self if you really believe that you cause a decision. Otherwise decision is an illusion.


Hi bahman,

Decision is an illusion.

We think we make decisions, but in reality our decisions are already made for us in our brain before we realise we have made the decision. 


 Why we are conscious anything at all? What happen for cycle of Karma (we are not responsible for our acts anymore)?

It all goes back to survival instincts tempered with our upbringing, society, conditioning, education, language, perceptions, values etc. Buddhism explains this as dependent origination.

See note 24 The Kaccayanagotta Sutta. ‘It may seem contradictory to our way of thinking about ourselves and our actions to have in this list voluntary mental activity preceding consciousness. I, for example, usually think that "I" am consciously directing "my" mental activity. Should we not say that consciousness precedes mental activity? Actual experiments conducted by modern psychologists and neurophysiologists show otherwise.’

In particular, Footnote to the 2003 Reith Lectures by Professor Michael E. McIntyre FRS, University of Cambridge. Where it is explained how the brain actively fits internal models to data from the outside world.

Not convinced? This type of information about decision making is also used in Neuromarketing. ‘Human decision-making is both a conscious and non-conscious process in the brain (Glanert, 2012). Human brains process over 90% of information non-consciously, below controlled awareness; this information has a large influence in the decision-making process.’


 Thank you for the references. I will look at them later.

Offline IdleChater

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Re: Is self real?
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2017, 10:38:18 am »
You need a self if you really believe that you cause a decision. Otherwise decision is an illusion.

Hi bahman,

Decision is an illusion.

We think we make decisions, but in reality our decisions are already made for us in our brain before we realise we have made the decision. 

 Why we are conscious anything at all? What happen for cycle of Karma (we are not responsible for our acts anymore)?


Simply because of karma.  It begihs with ignorance, which leads to mental dispositions, which generates karmic imprinting and and that leads to consciousness.

Offline bahman

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Re: Is self real?
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2017, 11:26:18 am »
You need a self if you really believe that you cause a decision. Otherwise decision is an illusion.

Hi bahman,

Decision is an illusion.

We think we make decisions, but in reality our decisions are already made for us in our brain before we realise we have made the decision. 

 Why we are conscious anything at all? What happen for cycle of Karma (we are not responsible for our acts anymore)?


Simply because of karma.  It begihs with ignorance, which leads to mental dispositions, which generates karmic imprinting and and that leads to consciousness.

 I don't understand what you are saying. I thought that consciousness is fundamental in Buddhism. Could you please elaborate?

Offline IdleChater

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Re: Is self real?
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2017, 12:02:00 pm »
You need a self if you really believe that you cause a decision. Otherwise decision is an illusion.

Hi bahman,

Decision is an illusion.

We think we make decisions, but in reality our decisions are already made for us in our brain before we realise we have made the decision. 

 Why we are conscious anything at all? What happen for cycle of Karma (we are not responsible for our acts anymore)?


Simply because of karma.  It begihs with ignorance, which leads to mental dispositions, which generates karmic imprinting and and that leads to consciousness.

 I don't understand what you are saying. I thought that consciousness is fundamental in Buddhism. Could you please elaborate?

I know.  It's not exactly "beginner stuff". 

Look at the 12 links of dependant origination.

It begins with ignorance of the 4 Noble Truths.  That ignorance leads to action, which results in karma.  This leads to consciuousness.

Because consciousness is not self-arisen, it can't be viewed as "real".  It is merely the product of previous causes and conditions.

Read about dependant origination.

Offline bahman

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Re: Is self real?
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2017, 12:30:23 pm »
You need a self if you really believe that you cause a decision. Otherwise decision is an illusion.

Hi bahman,

Decision is an illusion.

We think we make decisions, but in reality our decisions are already made for us in our brain before we realise we have made the decision. 

 Why we are conscious anything at all? What happen for cycle of Karma (we are not responsible for our acts anymore)?


Simply because of karma.  It begihs with ignorance, which leads to mental dispositions, which generates karmic imprinting and and that leads to consciousness.

 I don't understand what you are saying. I thought that consciousness is fundamental in Buddhism. Could you please elaborate?

I know.  It's not exactly "beginner stuff". 

Look at the 12 links of dependant origination.

It begins with ignorance of the 4 Noble Truths.  That ignorance leads to action, which results in karma.  This leads to consciuousness.

Because consciousness is not self-arisen, it can't be viewed as "real".  It is merely the product of previous causes and conditions.

Read about dependant origination.

 I use to think that it starts with curiosity, the fabric of universe is intelligible. Curiosity leads to act. Ignorance is a force again curiosity causes suffering.

Offline IdleChater

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Re: Is self real?
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2017, 12:48:25 pm »
You need a self if you really believe that you cause a decision. Otherwise decision is an illusion.

Hi bahman,

Decision is an illusion.

We think we make decisions, but in reality our decisions are already made for us in our brain before we realise we have made the decision. 

 Why we are conscious anything at all? What happen for cycle of Karma (we are not responsible for our acts anymore)?


Simply because of karma.  It begihs with ignorance, which leads to mental dispositions, which generates karmic imprinting and and that leads to consciousness.

 I don't understand what you are saying. I thought that consciousness is fundamental in Buddhism. Could you please elaborate?

I know.  It's not exactly "beginner stuff". 

Look at the 12 links of dependant origination.

It begins with ignorance of the 4 Noble Truths.  That ignorance leads to action, which results in karma.  This leads to consciuousness.

Because consciousness is not self-arisen, it can't be viewed as "real".  It is merely the product of previous causes and conditions.

Read about dependant origination.

 I use to think that it starts with curiosity, the fabric of universe is intelligible. Curiosity leads to act. Ignorance is a force again curiosity causes suffering.

Think whatever you like, I guess, but that's not a Buddhist teaching. 

Offline bahman

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Re: Is self real?
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2017, 12:51:27 pm »
You need a self if you really believe that you cause a decision. Otherwise decision is an illusion.

Hi bahman,

Decision is an illusion.

We think we make decisions, but in reality our decisions are already made for us in our brain before we realise we have made the decision. 

 Why we are conscious anything at all? What happen for cycle of Karma (we are not responsible for our acts anymore)?


Simply because of karma.  It begihs with ignorance, which leads to mental dispositions, which generates karmic imprinting and and that leads to consciousness.

 I don't understand what you are saying. I thought that consciousness is fundamental in Buddhism. Could you please elaborate?

I know.  It's not exactly "beginner stuff". 

Look at the 12 links of dependant origination.

It begins with ignorance of the 4 Noble Truths.  That ignorance leads to action, which results in karma.  This leads to consciuousness.

Because consciousness is not self-arisen, it can't be viewed as "real".  It is merely the product of previous causes and conditions.

Read about dependant origination.

 I use to think that it starts with curiosity, the fabric of universe is intelligible. Curiosity leads to act. Ignorance is a force again curiosity causes suffering.

Think whatever you like, I guess, but that's not a Buddhist teaching.

 I think what I said is mostly based on reason than liking.

Offline Weagean

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Re: Is self real?
« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2017, 02:11:26 pm »
Mind is separate from the aggregates. The mind is tied to the designated body of this incarnation. Pure mind is our Buddha nature. This is what needs awakening to free our mind from Samsara and our body is then the truth body. The illusions are attributes we apply to self and phenomena. The attributes make things appear more than they are. We become attached to these fake illusions. They appear special as if they are what wet and others have attributed, labeled, and designated. But all is empty of this individual, independent existence. Our self the mind has created doesn't exist, it's also empty of the person named Joe or Jane. When the mind awakens, all drops away as not existing, leaving pure luminous mind. But I'm still digesting this. Peace.

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