Author Topic: My reply to dukkha = cynicism  (Read 2117 times)

Offline Arkena

  • Member
  • Posts: 103
    • View Profile
My reply to dukkha = cynicism
« on: November 03, 2018, 08:54:40 pm »
To think unsatisfactoriness...dukkha...
Means the world is not full of joy and beauty
To think it means cynicism of the world is the path
Is wrong!

The unsatisfactoriness of things is pointed out
Because for a happy balanced individual
They can see the beauty of the world
And need help seeing the flaw behind this beauty.

The thing is for dukkha to expand onto our knowledge
Of the worlds pleasures and not to replace our knowledge
Of the world as a beautiful place.

Indeed we wouldnt be trapped in samsara if the world
Wasnt a beautiful place where great joy was possible
Its like the world is the most beautiful guilded cage
Ever built. So beautiful is it that we dont want to leave it...
Yet...it is still a cage.

So to think the world is a beautiful, perfect, best place to be or
That it is an awful place to live are both views that come from ignorance.
Though to see its beauty and think it is perfect is to not see deeply enough
Into its nature.

To see it as an awful place is to fail to see any of its nature.

The trap is to think because the buddha concentrated
On pointing out the flaws that he was cynical
And didnt see the over abundance of joys in life.
Because the negative,cynical,depressed only see the bad.

But this isnt what the buddha was doing, he was expanding
Happy peoples knowledge of the nature of things
So they had an all encompassing view of the world
And werent just hypnotised by the beauty of the world
When something better was possible.

He was doing all this in a very focussed, compressed, teaching dense way,
Hence not including what a lot of people can allready see...
There is much beauty in the world.

So dukkha is neither cynicism or optimism...it is the nature of things. It is perceiving reality.

Offline Pixie

  • Member
  • Posts: 233
    • View Profile
    • Buddhism Without Boundaries
Re: My reply to dukkha = cynicism
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2018, 02:30:29 am »
"Dukkha" ( stress, suffering, distress, discontent) happens when we are clinging on to our desires/cravings of one kind or another and always wanting life to be different.  When we are able to be calm and peaceful, we can be more non-judgementally aware of things happening around us.

 "Samsara" is a mental state of continuing dissatisfaction when we don't know how to let go of it.



_/|\_
« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 02:43:19 am by Pixie »
May all beings have happiness and the causes of happiness.
May they all be free from suffering and the causes of suffering.
May they never be deprived of true happiness devoid of any suffering.
May they abide in great impartiality, free from attachment to loved ones and aversion to others.

Offline Arkena

  • Member
  • Posts: 103
    • View Profile
Re: My reply to dukkha = cynicism
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2018, 04:51:21 am »
Yes i see...Samsara is a process we engage in that leads to unhappiness lifetime after lifetime.

Im struggling to seperate dukkha and samsara...

Dukkga Its like a blindness where we think of anything conditioned as being ultimately satisfying when such things can never truly satisfy us perfectly. There is no food that can remove hunger eternally etc. No external thing can grant eternal happiness because everything is impermanent and ever changing no? None of our senses can give us perfect pleasure as everything is ever changing and clinging to our senses just leads to suffering.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/samsara.html

Dukkha

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca1/dukkha.html

Im struggling with dukkha...as the buddha lists things that are dukkha in the 4 noble truths but i know dukkha is something that comes from an internal state and clinging to sense pleasure which cannot bring perfect happiness...its like drinking salt water, the more we drink the more we want no?

Offline Pixie

  • Member
  • Posts: 233
    • View Profile
    • Buddhism Without Boundaries
Re: My reply to dukkha = cynicism
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2018, 05:37:05 am »
.

This little talk given by Ajahn Amaro during a retreat at Amaravati Monastery might be helpful:

"The End of Dukkha is Now"

https://www.amaravati.org/dhamma-article-ajahn-amaro-end-dukkha-now/

and here's an article by Thanissaro Bhikkhu about the meaning of "Samsara":

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/samsara.html


_/|\_

« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 05:41:01 am by Pixie »
May all beings have happiness and the causes of happiness.
May they all be free from suffering and the causes of suffering.
May they never be deprived of true happiness devoid of any suffering.
May they abide in great impartiality, free from attachment to loved ones and aversion to others.

Offline Arkena

  • Member
  • Posts: 103
    • View Profile
Re: My reply to dukkha = cynicism
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2018, 12:18:25 pm »
Hey Pixie,

So dukkha is the mental habits and approach that leads to discontent and unhappiness.

Ty for helping :)

Offline Pixie

  • Member
  • Posts: 233
    • View Profile
    • Buddhism Without Boundaries
Re: My reply to dukkha = cynicism
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2018, 02:56:14 pm »
Hey Pixie,

So dukkha is the mental habits and approach that leads to discontent and unhappiness.

Ty for helping :)

Hi Arkena,

Happy to have been able to help  :)

Take care _/|\_

.
May all beings have happiness and the causes of happiness.
May they all be free from suffering and the causes of suffering.
May they never be deprived of true happiness devoid of any suffering.
May they abide in great impartiality, free from attachment to loved ones and aversion to others.

Offline zafrogzen

  • Member
  • Posts: 437
  • I've been practicing and studying meditation since
    • View Profile
    • zafrogzen
Re: My reply to dukkha = cynicism
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2018, 01:05:41 pm »
I read the links posted by Arkena and Pixie (one repeated) but I like what I found on Wikipedia best. So here I go with a long quote myself, but I'm really busy today --

Quote
    The ancient Aryans who brought the Sanskrit language to India were a nomadic, horse- and cattle-breeding people who travelled in horse- or ox-drawn vehicles. Su and dus are prefixes indicating good or bad. The word kha, in later Sanskrit meaning "sky," "ether," or "space," was originally the word for "hole," particularly an axle hole of one of the Aryan's vehicles. Thus sukha … meant, originally, "having a good axle hole," while duhkha meant "having a poor axle hole," leading to discomfort.

Joseph Goldstein, American vipassana teacher and writer, explains the etymology as follows:

    The word dukkha is made up of the prefix du and the root kha. Du means “bad” or “difficult.” Kha means “empty.” “Empty,” here, refers to several things—some specific, others more general. One of the specific meanings refers to the empty axle hole of a wheel. If the axle fits badly into the center hole, we get a very bumpy ride. This is a good analogy for our ride through saṃsāra.

So simply put, according to this, dukkha means "wrong" (axle hole in wrong place). Thus all the "right" this, and "right" that, in the eightfold path. I think that there's something basically "wrong" with most people's mentation and that Buddhist meditation is the best way to get that empty hole back on center.
My first formal meditation training was with Shunryu Suzuki in the 60's and later with Kobun, Robert Aitken and many other teachers (mainly zen). However, I've spent the most time practicing on my own, which is all I do now. I'm living in a rather isolated area so I miss connecting with other practitioners. Despite my interest in zen I've made an effort to remain secular. You can visit my website at http://www.frogzen.com

Offline Chaz

  • High-Functioning Sanctimonious Reprobate
  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1108
  • Facts have no moral judgment.
    • View Profile
Re: My reply to dukkha = cynicism
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2018, 01:24:09 pm »
I read the links posted by Arkena and Pixie (one repeated) but I like what I found on Wikipedia best. So here I go with a long quote myself, but I'm really busy today --

Quote
    The ancient Aryans who brought the Sanskrit language to India were a nomadic, horse- and cattle-breeding people who travelled in horse- or ox-drawn vehicles. Su and dus are prefixes indicating good or bad. The word kha, in later Sanskrit meaning "sky," "ether," or "space," was originally the word for "hole," particularly an axle hole of one of the Aryan's vehicles. Thus sukha … meant, originally, "having a good axle hole," while duhkha meant "having a poor axle hole," leading to discomfort.

Joseph Goldstein, American vipassana teacher and writer, explains the etymology as follows:

    The word dukkha is made up of the prefix du and the root kha. Du means “bad” or “difficult.” Kha means “empty.” “Empty,” here, refers to several things—some specific, others more general. One of the specific meanings refers to the empty axle hole of a wheel. If the axle fits badly into the center hole, we get a very bumpy ride. This is a good analogy for our ride through saṃsāra.

So simply put, according to this, dukkha means "wrong" (axle hole in wrong place). Thus all the "right" this, and "right" that, in the eightfold path. I think that there's something basically "wrong" with most people's mentation and that Buddhist meditation is the best way to get that empty hole back on center.

This is how I was taught the meaning of the term, dukkha, too, as well as the the metaphor of the cart, axle and wheel. "Wrong" in this context mean't "not quite right".  The wheel was slightly off-center or out of true, producing an unsatisfactory ride.  Uncomfortable.  Needing correction.

Offline Pixie

  • Member
  • Posts: 233
    • View Profile
    • Buddhism Without Boundaries
Re: My reply to dukkha = cynicism
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2018, 02:54:04 pm »
From a Tibetan Buddhist point of view, the Dalai Lama in his book "Essence of the Heart Sutra" describes suffering (dukkha) on three levels.

The first level includes physical and mental sensations of discomfort and pain.

The second level is the suffering of change.

The third level is the pervasive suffering of conditioning. (eg. we are ruled by negative emotions and their root cause which is our ignorance of the nature of reality)

https://www.wisdompubs.org/book/essence-heart-sutra


_/|\_
May all beings have happiness and the causes of happiness.
May they all be free from suffering and the causes of suffering.
May they never be deprived of true happiness devoid of any suffering.
May they abide in great impartiality, free from attachment to loved ones and aversion to others.

Offline zafrogzen

  • Member
  • Posts: 437
  • I've been practicing and studying meditation since
    • View Profile
    • zafrogzen
Re: My reply to dukkha = cynicism
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2018, 08:49:16 pm »
Ironically, the more one practices meditation and dis-attachment, the more agreeable life becomes –  the more beauty and joy there is in it.

When there's no self, there's nothing that is not the self.


« Last Edit: November 07, 2018, 09:05:05 pm by zafrogzen »
My first formal meditation training was with Shunryu Suzuki in the 60's and later with Kobun, Robert Aitken and many other teachers (mainly zen). However, I've spent the most time practicing on my own, which is all I do now. I'm living in a rather isolated area so I miss connecting with other practitioners. Despite my interest in zen I've made an effort to remain secular. You can visit my website at http://www.frogzen.com

Offline Dairy Lama

  • Member
  • Posts: 5324
  • Cool baby yeah!
    • View Profile
Re: My reply to dukkha = cynicism
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2018, 04:42:35 am »
Here's how dukkha is described in the suttas:

"Suffering, as a noble truth, is this: Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, sickness is suffering, death is suffering, sorrow and lamentation, pain, grief and despair are suffering; association with the loathed is suffering, dissociation from the loved is suffering, not to get what one wants is suffering — in short, suffering is the five categories of clinging objects."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.011.nymo.html

Note that dukkha is a pre-Buddhist concept.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2018, 04:45:09 am by Dairy Lama »
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream"

Offline zafrogzen

  • Member
  • Posts: 437
  • I've been practicing and studying meditation since
    • View Profile
    • zafrogzen
Re: My reply to dukkha = cynicism
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2018, 09:10:35 am »
Ironically, the more one practices meditation and dis-attachment, the more agreeable life becomes –  the more beauty and joy there is in it.

When there's no self, there's nothing that is not the self.

It's ironic because the impression one gets from Theravada descriptions of this life is that it's a nasty, disgusting vale of suffering and distress to be escaped as completely and quickly as possible -- as if there was some other place to go. But my point is that it's not this life that changes with meditation practice, but one's self.
My first formal meditation training was with Shunryu Suzuki in the 60's and later with Kobun, Robert Aitken and many other teachers (mainly zen). However, I've spent the most time practicing on my own, which is all I do now. I'm living in a rather isolated area so I miss connecting with other practitioners. Despite my interest in zen I've made an effort to remain secular. You can visit my website at http://www.frogzen.com

Offline paracelsus

  • Member
  • Posts: 98
    • View Profile
Re: My reply to dukkha = cynicism
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2018, 08:21:46 pm »

The preliminary practices of viewing the body and the senses as vile and unwholesome is to help persuade our deeply self and sense addicted being to drop the pursuit of pleasure and gain for long enough to obtain some insight through meditation, vipasyana and samatha etc. Hence the benefit of retreat where the world is put aside for the purpose.

I suggest that the fear of pleasure or repulsion toward life is a hinderance as much as is the craving for it.

We crave sensual fulfilment only to become dissatisfied almost immediately after gratification, and yet to the degree that craving ceases through insight, as above, we still enjoy the world of the senses but without the suffering bought about by grasping and craving.

Once such insight is gained there should be no real problem in living a happy human life because the grasping obsession will be no more. Should deeper insight and experience be desired then the practice can be followed as far as one wishes to take it.

Some ambitious practitioners work very hard to accomplish higher and higher levels of attainment, but for all the rest of us who are unlikely ever to be such, I'd suggest that the mountain is as high as you wish to climb up it, and there is no saying that you can't attain the freedom of the desire-less, sitting contented at its base.

I write these posts as an encouragement to all the people who might be intimidated by the vastness of the doctrine and the stories of awe inspiring accomplishments of the great practitioners.

I boast only tiny accomplishment and understanding by comparison but have a deep sense of fulfilment and peace which is the joyous result of buddhist practice.


Metta


Offline Dairy Lama

  • Member
  • Posts: 5324
  • Cool baby yeah!
    • View Profile
Re: My reply to dukkha = cynicism
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2018, 02:39:00 am »
It's ironic because the impression one gets from Theravada descriptions of this life is that it's a nasty, disgusting vale of suffering and distress to be escaped as completely and quickly as possible -- as if there was some other place to go.

Yes, it can come across that way, though less so with contemporary interpretations.

What's the Zen view on human life?   
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream"

Offline zafrogzen

  • Member
  • Posts: 437
  • I've been practicing and studying meditation since
    • View Profile
    • zafrogzen
Re: My reply to dukkha = cynicism
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2018, 12:05:40 pm »
There’s not much of that kind of renunciation of ordinary life in Zen. Zen Buddhism was influenced by native Chinese Taoism which is very down-to-earth. Zen is especially appreciative of nature, as evidenced by zen gardens, painting and poetry that reflect a deep appreciation of life, which I don’t think has any parallel in Theravada Buddhism. Zen Buddhist priests and monks also marry and have families.

Zen emphasizes returning to the world (the “marketplace”) after enlightenment. Philosophically zen sees nirvana in samsara as in the saying -- “The coin that was lost in the river, is found in the river.”
My first formal meditation training was with Shunryu Suzuki in the 60's and later with Kobun, Robert Aitken and many other teachers (mainly zen). However, I've spent the most time practicing on my own, which is all I do now. I'm living in a rather isolated area so I miss connecting with other practitioners. Despite my interest in zen I've made an effort to remain secular. You can visit my website at http://www.frogzen.com

 


SimplePortal 2.3.3 © 2008-2010, SimplePortal