Author Topic: Non-violence  (Read 1095 times)

Offline Rune

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Non-violence
« on: November 11, 2016, 03:44:39 am »
Hi.

I Can not make any sence out of the "non-violent" badge that buddhism has to it's name.

Frist of, "passive agressive" is also a form of a violation, then there is the problem with tiny incects, bacteria, the use of Minerals and fabricated materials that has been excarvated from the earth.
There is ni way you Can not harm another Living beeing, soo any egocentric exercise, is a act of violence.

Second, how about all the stories about child abuse in the buddhist temples through out asia? Or the shaolin temples kung fu Martial art, that is more deadly, than anything i know of.
Or Dali Lama hanging out with war criminal politicians, like it is no Big deal.
Or all the radical buddhist gurus, who I dare not even to quote.

Also I see gurus who are very blissfull, but in reality are the not also just only human, and do thet not also carry some darkness around inside them, but tale the advantage of People, because everyone want too be saved, from this hellish realm.

Is there any Living buddhist practitioner, who don't, lie, opress, steal, kill, wound, withhold truth, or violate in any other manner?

Please let me know who he or her is. Untill then, buddhism is not a non-violent movement.

Sorry to say, but it is not realistic.
"Forget "professional counseling." This calls for an exorcist!" - zafrogzen

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Non-violence
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2016, 06:53:37 pm »
Hi, Rune.

The first precept states variously:  "Cause no harm to sentient beings, and/or to living beings." 

The first version is hard enough, and as you said, the second is pretty much impossible, when you include bacterium, and all other forms of microbiological organisms as well as insects we eat in our food.  Plants are living, too, so that pretty much takes away all the supposed moral superiority, which vegans claim.

My practice includes the word "intentionally".  e.g. Cause no intentional harm to sentient beings.

Hope this helps.   :hug:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline VincentRJ

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Re: Non-violence
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2016, 10:58:17 pm »
Second, how about all the stories about child abuse in the buddhist temples through out asia? Or the shaolin temples kung fu Martial art, that is more deadly, than anything i know of.
Or Dali Lama hanging out with war criminal politicians, like it is no Big deal.
Or all the radical buddhist gurus, who I dare not even to quote.

Also I see gurus who are very blissfull, but in reality are the not also just only human, and do thet not also carry some darkness around inside them, but tale the advantage of People, because everyone want too be saved, from this hellish realm.

Is there any Living buddhist practitioner, who don't, lie, opress, steal, kill, wound, withhold truth, or violate in any other manner?

Killing, lying and stealing are normal animal traits for the purpose of survival. The fact that such behaviour is also common amongst humans tends to confirm the reality that humans are also animals with similar instincts to all other animals.

However, the evolutionary processes of mankind, resulting in his larger brain and greater ability for social cooperation, have given rise to revelations amongst a few bright individuals in the past, that we can be fundamentally better than the animals if we accentuate and emphasise our abilities for social cooperation and empathy for others.

Buddhism has taken this concept of 'empathy for others' to a more extreme (or higher) level, which includes empathy for all animals. In Buddhism, there is not the clear demarcation between animals and humans that exists in Christianity (ie. humans have a soul but animals don't).

Unfortunately, our animal instincts are so powerful and fundamental to our existence, that many of us are unable to rise above them a lot of the time. The standards of religious ideals seem to be too high or impractical, so most of us fail at least some of the time in respect of those ideals, including occasionally Buddhist monks and Catholic priests.

Hope this answers your question.

Offline Rune

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Re: Non-violence
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2016, 01:18:21 am »
But that is not very dharma (truthfull, if I understand it right), to sell buddhism as a non violent movement, when in fact it create suffering. Would it not be better then to just call it a very humane "way" of living?
since non-violence is simply not the case.

even monks are eating meat, and the majority of the buddhist countries in asia, are psychicaly punishing their children. to me that is very extreme behaviour, and it is kind of misleading to state that buddhism is all about peace and love, when it is soo far from the truth.

i can not believe that buddist teachers always come up with this conclution, when it in fact is a lie. i prefere the truth. otherwise I am not able to fully trust and understand the concept.
"Forget "professional counseling." This calls for an exorcist!" - zafrogzen

Offline VincentRJ

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Re: Non-violence
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2016, 06:40:51 am »
Rune,
I think you might be confusing the teaching of Buddhism, as it exists in the earliest texts, such as the Pali Canon, with the practice of Buddhism by the masses who are often not familiar with the fundamental philosophical principles and have often adapted to Buddhism from an animistic background and have accepted practices which are sometimes at odds with those fundamental principles as expressed in those early texts.

As regards eating meat, I believe it's okay for monks to accept meat in their alms bowl as long as the animal (cow, pig or chicken etc) was not slaughtered for the express purpose of making an offering to some monk.

However, this is very much a grey area. How would it be possible for a monk to know, during his morning rounds with his alms bowl, whether or not a particular family had decided to kill an extra chicken or two so that they had enough food to donate to the monks, in order to make merit?

This is one of the changes that the Santi Asoke group in Thailand has made. The monks, nuns and lay farmers in the community are all strict vegans. However, the monks and nuns are not allowed to engage directly in farming in the field in case they accidentally kill insects and worms.

Bacteria and microbes are not considered to be sentient beings. They don't have a nervous system and as far as is known they can't feel pain. Some would argue that insects, worms and other invertebrates also don't feel pain, but this is not certain. We can observe that a worm will squirm if a pin is stuck into it.

Buddhism is all about reducing suffering. If you get the impression it sometimes creates suffering, that is probably because someone, whether lay person or monk, has misunderstood or misapplied one or more of the fundamental principles, as expressed in the scriptures.

Offline Rune

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Re: Non-violence
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2016, 09:56:07 am »
very good point. :) it is only a observation i have made. i guess it is true, that buddhism has not ever been involved as a agressive part of a war, and that is very impressive, but violence has many faces.

in the western world, it is not really nessesary to kill animals, to be able to survive.
"Forget "professional counseling." This calls for an exorcist!" - zafrogzen

Offline VincentRJ

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Re: Non-violence
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2016, 05:45:47 pm »

in the western world, it is not really nessesary to kill animals, to be able to survive.

Santi Asoke is in Thailand, in the East. Whatever the country, the market economy and the profit motive encourages food to be produced in the cheapest manner possible, and that usually includes the killing of predators and the use of pesticides.

There are alternative agricultural techniques which avoid the use of pesticides and encourage the proliferation of soil organisms and worms, but such systems are usually very labour-intensive and result in more expensive food in the market to pay for the increased labour cost, and often result in less cosmetically-appealing food as a result of attacks from insects.

Offline Rune

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Re: Non-violence
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2016, 02:05:41 am »
the cow is not a pretator, but is being treatet extremly cruel. well there are also studies, showing that agriculture without pesticides, are far more productive, and less labour intensive, since it will take care of it self.

i still wounder why soo many people are attracted towards, these charletan gurus, like Thich Nhat Hanh or Dalai Lama, just to mention a few, and i think that buddhism should accept the fact, that most people who seek buddhism are suffering and traumatised, but if you look at modern psychology, often someons with a trauma, will seek someone out, that can play the part as the violater. soo when you find some inner peace on the meditation, mindfullness, etc, but your guru are taking advantage of your emotions, money, time, trust, traumas, low selfesteam, etc, is that not then, a form of brainwash or a violation of our basic needs like respect and dignity.
when it turn out that the guru is just a ordinary human being, with traumas himself, who is controling his own behaivour, to become a manipulative personality.

i think that there need to be a psychological profile on these gurus, within the buddhist tradition. non of the many gurus i have seen, who are supposed to be "clean" is very much more than a scam, since they tell lies, and are opressive towards their fellow beings.


"Forget "professional counseling." This calls for an exorcist!" - zafrogzen

Offline Rune

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Re: Non-violence
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2016, 02:18:18 am »
by the way, vegan claim of non violent by eating plants, has it's justification, as i see it.
since plants reproduce by spreading it's seeds, the plant has some interest in being digested by animals. the animal dropping then contain the protected plant seeds, and is if all goes well able to grow a new plant, where the dropping landed.

the same can not be said about meat.
"Forget "professional counseling." This calls for an exorcist!" - zafrogzen

Offline Rune

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Re: Non-violence
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2016, 03:18:47 pm »
in a way, buddhism, hinduism, christianity, islam, is outdated, and is keeping sociaity in a totalitarian iron grip, where if you do not respect your parents, laws, god, you name it, there is no salvation. it is a really outdated philosophy, but still very much the case in most of the world.

you can not say, that it is a few bad chatlic priests, or some random lama in tibet, it is going on all over, with in every family in asia, middle east, south america, estern europe, africa, southern europe, and in all cultures, where the parents are being treated like gods, kings, superior beings, etc.
these traditions die hard, in order for perents not to loose respect in the comunity, if the child has acted against the norm.

the fact, that buddhism is not speking against this phenomina, is in fact very passive, and show the fact that buddhism is not the way out of the dark ages, but just a means to proceed with in it's limitations.
same goes for the rest of the stone age religions.

the fact that buddhism, brand itself as a truly non-violent religion, is a hoax. if you scratch a little in the surface, a whole nother picrure will acure.
and that is what buddhism, sell itself as being, namely non-violent.

soo how do you trust your lamas, gurus, babbas? when you know they sell you something that is an utter lie. do you just let it go, as something not worth dealing with, or do you stop and ask, what the definition of violence is?
2500 years ago, a violation might be another from what it is today.
like when there were no humanrights laws, or no rights for children or women or even animals.
but non-violence does no longer aply to buddhism.

i would be happy to hear one of these lamas, definition on a violent act. im sure i am way more non-violent, than any of those scam, animal killing lamas.

for someone from scandinavia, it is just to mind buggeling.
even you see munks giving up their ego, but still cut their hair, wear ropes, follow some rich guru and sit on stage, i mean that can not be good for someones ego, if you try to supress it.

i simply can not grasp the buddhist concept, as long as the main focus is truthfulness, but anything a guru is saying, is being accepted blindly as the truth.

how about if the truth, was not some camoflage lie, but the actual truth? what about if the truth, is no longer to same, as it was 2500 years ago, but the truth has progressed, in to a place, where human rights are the most important, and has nothing to do with, supressing one self, in to submission towards abusive parents or the comunity in general.

how about that for the truth?
"Forget "professional counseling." This calls for an exorcist!" - zafrogzen

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Non-violence
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2016, 08:46:26 pm »
Hi, Rune.

Sounds like you may have had some bad experiences in your life and are strikiing out to aleviate your pain and frustration at your  inability to gain some sort of retribution.  Have you just tried letting go?  Have you tried seeking professional couseling?

The vastness of the problems you cite are just too large for any one individual to handle by themselves.  Medical professionals are charged to report any cases that come to their attention, but this protocol is relatively recent and there are generations of those who were abused as children that are just coming to reveal to society what happened to them.  Due to statutes of limitations there is little the law can do to deal with such perpetrators.  That is why professional counseling is probably the best way for folks like you to go, if the pain becomes so large that you have no choice but to seek relief.

With compassion,

_/\_Ron

What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline Rune

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Re: Non-violence
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2016, 11:55:32 am »
Ron.

Your right, i had some hard times, and i have been seeing a professionel, regarding my issues.

However, you can not blame everything i say, interely on me.

The truth of the fact is that, buddhism is not what it claim to be, or at least not what the great spokespersons claim.
I could say the same thing about you, that you have issues about trust, and you seek out a reality based on lies and low selfesteam. Since you are involving yourself in some cult, that follow blind, without questien the information you are being feet.
But selfinsight is hard, and it is easier to find the faults in others.

In the post "ten misconceptions about buddhism" i already staked out some of the fundamental misconceptions about your cult's mindset. However im sure you do not take these points in to conciderrations, since you most propably are soo far in to the brainwashing process, that you have litttle care about the truth anymore.

It takes but a few weeks, to be brainwashed, and only a few years of intensive practice, to never be able to escape your rituals.

If you read the post i mentioned, im sure you will understand my concern. But just because someone critizise your cult, does not pr. say mean that someone need help mentaly.

But perhaps this is a matter for another forum, like a forum about cults and how to spot one and get out alive, and not some forum that praise the methods and the whole scam.

I wish you luck, and may you find the gift of sceptisism.

Rune
"Forget "professional counseling." This calls for an exorcist!" - zafrogzen

Offline Rune

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Re: Non-violence
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2016, 01:09:33 pm »
On the sidenote; im not stricking out at you, or anybody else, that is your own claim, not mine.

But it say something about your view in critizism, about your cult.

To bad, one can not critizise your cult, without being acused of a violent act. Like when you use the term "striking", if not, you should chose your words more carefully. Or even try to realize that i am not striking anything.
But perhaps you need the drama, soo that you can gain a following, and surply your nacissist needs, like the rest of your gurus.

Im not some mindless goat, you can order around, by telling me some crooked story.
I could not care less about your drama.

Please stick to the subject, otherwise leave the mudfight to yourself!
« Last Edit: November 23, 2016, 01:15:06 pm by Rune »
"Forget "professional counseling." This calls for an exorcist!" - zafrogzen

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Non-violence
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2016, 03:31:58 pm »
Hi, Rune.

My intention was not to cause you any form of harm, angst, or mental dissonance, but to let you know that there is help for someone like yourself, who could benefit from personal couseling, of which you apparently already taking advantage.  My hope is that you will continue and to discuss your concerns and fears regarding Buddhism, which you have wrongly labled a cult with your counselor.  Hopefully he/she will help you work through this issue to  your satisfaction.

This forum is designed to offer support to those who wish to study Buddhism.  When that becomes your desire, please revisit us and we will help you to the best of our ability.

Best regards.

_/\_Ron
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline VincentRJ

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Re: Non-violence
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2016, 04:25:09 pm »
Rune,
May I offer a general word of advice that might be relevant to your situation. I've come across a number of reports which suggest that people with some sort of serious 'personality disorder' (for want of a better expression), who are attracted to Buddhist-style meditation practices as a method of solving their problem, could in fact exacerbate their problem. The consequences could be dangerous for themselves and others.

This is why certain 'meditation retreats' ask newcomers to sign a form declaring their medical history, and sometimes refuse to accept those who have continuing problems of certain types. I don't want to get specific.

Please do not consider this as an insult, but as a friendly word of advice.

 


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