FreeSangha - Buddhist Forum

Archives => Buddha Basics - Beginner Zone => Topic started by: Ron-the-Elder on July 19, 2017, 05:08:53 am

Title: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: Ron-the-Elder on July 19, 2017, 05:08:53 am
Quote
Artist Magistra:  "Hi, Ron, can you make a thread about all your practices and precepts and all that? It may benefit vistors as well. I'd really like to see too. Thank you!"

I started this thread as a result of the above contributor's suggestion so that others might make themselves aware of what we call our various practices.  These will be stated from personal perspective, rather than by rehashing dogmatic viewpoints or teachings, with a short explantion as to why and how it works personally in my life.

The Precepts:

"Cause no harm to sentient beings / living beings."


I spent most of my childhood playing in the woods, where life-forms could be observed in their various forms.  Parents in those days sent their kids out the front door and didn't expect to see them until sundown.  While in the woods and forests these woodland animals, plants, and insects brought me great wonder and studied interest.  They were more like my playmates than "other" creatures.  Squirrels, foxes, racoons, badgers, deer, an occasional black bear, bees, hornets, wasps, ants, mosquitoes,grass hoppers, birds of all varieties, large and small were everywhere around me to be seen and with whom I would share my lunch, or just observe and enjoy with endless fascination.

Trees, grasses, vines in particular provided my playground equipment.  Trees were to be climbed and used as observation towers.  Grasses were my bed.  Vines were my transport into the deepest jungles of Africa where in my imagination I could become Tarzan of The Apes, although I had never seen an ape, other than man-apes except in the movies or the zoo.

My paternal grandmother raised chickens, and it was my duty to collect the eggs in the morning from the hen coop.

My grandmother also had a grape arbor, which always produced magnificent Concord grapes from which she produced delicious varieties of wines.

Her garden yielded tomatoes, egg plants, peppers, lettuces, potatoes, and other varieties of plants, which were too numerous  for my mind to recall, except for her fig trees, and apples.

And then there were members of the family:  my parents, my aunts and uncles, cousins in all sizes and genders, but most importanly, my grandmother.

I had no grandfather on either side of my family.  They had both died before I was born in their fifties.

Later there were classmates, teachers, neighbors, neighbor's children, but during the impressionable years of my childhood, my whole impression of my universe pretty much existed in my grandmother's yard and the adjacent woods and forest.

So, the first precept, "Cause no harm.." came naturally to me, as I would never cause harm to any of my playmates, to my toys, or to members of my family who clothed me, fed me, placed a roof over my head, loved and cared for me and taught me with great care and kindness to love and care for others.

Hope this is a good start.

I will speak of other precepts in subsequent posts.
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 19, 2017, 12:11:35 pm
Please continue, that was wonderful, and thank you so much for making this available to everyone here!
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: Ron-the-Elder on July 19, 2017, 02:45:51 pm
Precepts:  "Take not that which has not been freely given."

Born into a large family community, the belongings of others, especially those of relatives were always available for the taking.  However, I can not remember even one occasion where such things were not readily shared and to which I was welcome to take whatever I wanted.  The only exceptions were those things like tools which were needed to perform necessary household tasks.  For example, I was told on many occasions not to play with my grandmother's shears, because she needed them for doing seamstress work and they were not toys for little boys.

Fishing poles, bottom weights, spoons and hooks were  part of the gear that we were allowed and even expected to use, when we would go fishing in The Bay for fish. When crabbing in a nearby river, we would need nets, lines and bait, which was always readily available, lying on the docks for anyone to use, or which would be provided by an uncle before we loaded our equipment into our row boat and heading out into the river very early in the morning well before sunrise. 

Food was always provided whether at home , school, in the forest , or working the waters for seafood.  So, there was never any need to take what belonged to others.  We were always part of the group, which had resources, which they were always ready and willing to share.

The same was true for clothing and shelter.  Much of my clothing came from older cousins as I had no brothers older than me.  When I needed for something, an aunt or an uncle would provide if my parents could not afford to buy them for me.  Those family members who had older children would readily offer outgrown clothing for us younger folks to wear.

On one occasion, while still in elementary school this custom got me into trouble with the parents of a neighborhood playmate.  He had a brand new bicycle, which he let me ride and would always let me borrow.  One morning before going to school, I decided that I was too tired to walk to school and thought it would be a great idea to take his bike and ride it to school. Since he wasn't around I decided it would be OK for me to borrow it for the day.

Arriving at school on my friend's bike, my school mates complimented me on my new bicycle and  the compliments made me feel proud, even important, so I just smiled and did not bother to tell them that the bike belonged to a friend and pretended it was mine. 

Back in those days it wasn't necessary to use bicycle locks as theft wasn't a problem at our school.  However, when classes were over, I went to the bike rack and the bicycle was gone.  I was terrified, because, not only did the bike not belong to me, but, now I would have to replace it, because it was my fault that it was stolen from the school yard.

I remember the walk home after school as being terrifying to me, because I knew what I had done was wrong.  When I got home, my mother, and one of my uncles was waiting for me, and the first thing that came out of their mouths, was  asking me if I took my friend's bike from his house.  I hesitantly admitted that I did, because I knew that somehow I was in trouble.  I explained that my friend and I had a deal that I could borrow his bike any time I wanted to, which was truly a fine deal between friends, except for the fact that my friend and I never got his parents agreement that this arrangement was OK with them.  Apparently, my friend had planned to take his own bike that morning, and he didn't realize until much later that it was me who had "stolen" his bike.  When my mother was approached by my friend's mother, suspecting what I had done, my mother called my uncle who drove  to my school and retrieved the wayward bicycle.  He decided not to inform me, but instead to wait until I got home from school to teach me a lesson.

Clearly understanding what I had done wrong by taking the bike without permission, I apologized to my friend's parents and to my friend.  For punishment my parents told me that I was no longer allowed to borrow his bike ever again.  Now, this was a pretty stern punishment, pretty much a maximum sentence for a seven year old.  However, the next July, on my birthday, I came home from playing in the fields near my home to find a brand new Schwinn Bicycle sitting beneath my window, purchased for me by the very same uncle, who had come to my school to find the bicycle, which  I had borrowed without permission of my friend's parents.

I ran to my friend's house to show him my new bike, and we rode together up and down our neighborhood streets.
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 19, 2017, 05:25:21 pm
I'm enjoying this very personal intimate account greatly, thank you so much for all the time and effort taken in writing all that out, its really nice to see.
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: Chaz on July 19, 2017, 05:34:19 pm
My main practice is Shamatha meditation.  This is what I was taught when I was introduced to Tibetan Buddhism and I've continued it ever since.

When I do a formal "sit"  I recite a liturgy that includes a Kagyu Lineage prayer, a long-life supplication for my guru, the Dalai Lama, the Karmapa, and my guru's root guru.  I also recite the heart sutra and a short Vajrasattva practice.  This is a karma purification practice recomended by my guru to his students.  I end the practice with a merit dedication.

I am doing Ngondro practice.  This is a practice for preparation for tantric practices.  Apart from that, I'm not at liberty to discuss the particulars.

I do Tonglen regularly.  It's a bodhichitta practice.  Refer to Pema Chodron's book "Start Where You Are" for a great discussion and instruction on this practice.  There are a number of varioations.  I do a practice taught by Geshe Michael Roach.

I do an Amitabha practice when those close to me die.  THis is a pure land practice to aid the dying or dead to pass though the Bardos and take birth in Amithaba's pure land.

My guru discouraged me from doing precept practices like Ron describes.  "You'd bring too much self into it.  Perfect your main practice and the precepts will follow in due course.". 
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: EaglesWing on July 19, 2017, 05:45:09 pm
Please continue, that was wonderful, and thank you so much for making this available to everyone here!

I tried to practice breathing meditation I read on the internet called 'Breathing in, I calm body and mind. Breathing out, I smile. Dwelling in the present moment I know this is the only moment.'

I did this for a while but I started to feel desolate, alone & empty. The fear just suddenly arose and I could not meditate any more. Lately, I have been having an existential crisis about the world & life.

Can any help? Can you help me The Artis Magistra?

Thanking you

 :anjali:

 
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 19, 2017, 07:58:15 pm
Please continue, that was wonderful, and thank you so much for making this available to everyone here!

I tried to practice breathing meditation I read on the internet called 'Breathing in, I calm body and mind. Breathing out, I smile. Dwelling in the present moment I know this is the only moment.'

I did this for a while but I started to feel desolate, alone & empty. The fear just suddenly arose and I could not meditate any more. Lately, I have been having an existential crisis about the world & life.

Can any help? Can you help me The Artis Magistra?

Thanking you

 :anjali:

I will keep trying, if what I offered in the other thread doesn't work, then we will work on other ways to get you feeling more functional and capable in life.
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: EaglesWing on July 19, 2017, 11:30:45 pm
I will keep trying, if what I offered in the other thread doesn't work, then we will work on other ways to get you feeling more functional and capable in life.

I doubt it will work because what was offered was terrible.  :help:
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: Ron-the-Elder on July 20, 2017, 12:27:53 am
The Precepts:

"Abstaining from sexual misconduct.".



My earliest childhood memory was of lying on my back on the floor in my grandmother's garage engaging in sexual activity with an older family member.  This same family member perpetrated these sexual activities not only with me from age five or so till I was age eight, when he was, many years later, discovered to be doing the same kind of thing with my "baby" sister.  He was arrested for it at the request of my mother, sentenced by the courts to imprisonment and psychiatric treatment untill his physicians found him to be "cured", which anyone having even the most basic understanding of pedophilia knows that cures of this abhorent sexual behaviour truly never happens.

According to my psychological councilors in their workups, as a result of this early childhood experience my concept of what was a normal and well adjusted sexual relationship with age and gender appropriate mates was at the best misguided and inappropriate well into my young adulthood resulting in uncountable promiscuous, often disastrous sexual encounters and bizarre relationships that all ended badly well into my adulthood until I met my first wife. 

In the Philippines, while serving in the military, I once had a prostitute tell me that the other young women in her professional sexual sisterhood community labeled me a "butterfly boy" indicating that I flitted from one prostitute to the next seemingly never satisfied as a butterfly flits from one flower to the next.  This was not favored by these young women, because they preferred young men who were faithful to one, and hoped that their favorite sexual customers would marry them, take them to America and share a long life with them in marital bliss.

Most of these young Filipino women were from poorest of families and were sold into sexual slavery by their parents or  guardians.  Many were the progeny of Filipino natives and military men, who frequented their brothels, literally born into sexual servitude.  These were actually sought by their "owners", because they would inherit phenotypic (physically apparent) characteristics desired by their clients, thereby improving business. 

The desirability of these young women, as with all sexual attractiveness only lasted in their youth, or until they acquired some disfiguring sexually transmitted disease, which was common to brothel workers, until appropriate medical surveillance and treatment became the norm, which certainly wasn't the case during the time of my youth.

When I found my first wife and we decided to be married, she asked me as we were lying in bed together, if I had ever been with another woman.  She asked this, because she was a virgin and had abstained from sexual congress until she was married as was the custom for women in my society.   I told the truth to her and said that I had been with other women, which I thought would end the conversation, but she persisted in that line of questioning and asked again, "How many?"

Trying to be honest, I answered, "I don't know."  "Perhaps hundreds."...which answer hurt her deeply, and she could not even look at me, let alone speak to me for days.

As uncomfortable days and nights went on, my bride eventually shared with me that she had faith in me that I would remain faithful to her so long as we shall live as we had promised to each other.  And the truth is that I was until the day that she died in our bed over thirty-five years later.

This form of marital fidelity was not the norm in my family culture.  Literally every male member of my family used to brag about their extra-marital escapades.  My aunts were apparently aware of this and cited many examples of how they had to fight for the possession of their men.  One experienced many, many divorces and remarriages due to infidelity.  Ironically the rest remained married till the day they died, but none of them seemed happy in their relationships.  Many of the males drank themselves into liver, heart, and brain diseases before they died miserable deaths, except for one, who died in his sleep., apparently faithful to his wife in his old age.

When my first wife died, I was lost again, panicking and searching desperately for someone to fill my life as she did.  Someone to love.  Someone to trust.  Someone to provide warmth, hearth, and home to share with me.

After the panic subsided, waned, and became barely noticeable, I was able to see clearly enough to find a mate who qualified in  the attributes I had come to admire from the exemplary example of the first woman I married and with whom we produced our four children.

My newly wed bride and I will celebrate our eleventh anniversary this November.  I remain faithful to our marriage, inspired by the beneficial results of fidelity in my first marriage of thirty-eight years till death did us part.
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 20, 2017, 02:23:52 am
I will keep trying, if what I offered in the other thread doesn't work, then we will work on other ways to get you feeling more functional and capable in life.

I doubt it will work because what was offered was terrible.  :help:

Haha but that is the whole story, that is the whole point. We offer, and we offer again, and we offer until we get it right.
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: Ron-the-Elder on July 20, 2017, 09:30:06 pm
Precepts:

Refraining from incorrect speech.


Probably the most difficult to keep of all the precepts for me is and was that of  abstaining from incorrect speech. 

This is/was particularly true for situations, which resulted in debates, or which attempted to resolve arguments.  The goal for me  in these situations seemed to be to "win" rather than to create harmony, or to come to agreements, which would allow resolution of problems, which resulted in debates or arguments.  I found this particularly true when caught in the act of lying, or where feelings of defensiveness arose, which I felt required me to save face or to justify what later proved to be dubious actions, or which resulted in unsatisfactory consequences.

Teasing, downright meanness, and/or bullying was very commonplace in our school environments. Therefore, as a child, particularly as a teen it seemed only reasonable to return such treatment in kind, when, as Buddha taught us, just the opposite is true:  The countermeasures for unkindness is kindness.  The appropriate response to bullying is loving-kindness.  The solution to disrespect is showing compassion, and etc..

When astounded or overwhelmed by abusive speech, I have recently found that silence or biting my tongue seems to serve me well, bringing much better results than returning verbal assault for verbal assault.

Character assassination seems to be a big problem today, especially within the context of social media.  I have learned that taking personal disagreements offline, or out of thread with the use of private messaging seems to be much more effective, and tends to cool things down more effectively.

Of course these approaches don't always work, and sometimes it becomes necessary to "ignore" for ongoing peace of mind.

Unfortunately there are no "ignore" buttons, which seem to work for marriage couples.  What does seems to work is to talk things out and to be certain never to go to bed angry.  I found that kissing seems to help in this case.
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: Ron-the-Elder on July 20, 2017, 10:12:37 pm
Precepts:

"Abstain from mind altering substances."


My first experience, which gave me a clue as to why Buddha recommended this rule for laypersons, was as a child.  My aunts and uncles used to gather at my grandmother's home for dinner pretty much every Sunday.  Most of them worked together and used to enjoy playing cards and drinking shots of whiskey and drinking beer while playing.

My uncles would leave their drinks sitting on the edge of the dining room table, and one day I decided to be like the big folks, picked up a "double shot" and knocked it back, ...immitating what I saw my uncles do all the time, while playing cards.  My throat screamed with pain, and I went to the kitchen sink for relief by placing my mouth around the spiggot and swallowing until the pain was bearable.  Exiting the kitchen through the door which led to back porch I escaped into the back yard, lay down and stared at the sky.  Shortly, I vomitted my five year old guts out and was glad that I was lying in the grass, instead of my grandmother's kitchen.

The next time I succombed to the effects of too much alcohol was in Japan, where I consumed an entire fifth of "Crown Royal" in one sitting.  The occassion was my separation from The Military as I was shipping home the following day, and my comrads donated the fifth to me as a token of their respect and friendship.  I woke up the next morning with my feet sticking out of the top of some hedges, and when able to free myself, I walked five miles back to my base of operations.  This was the first of only a few blackouts that I can recall during my drinking career.

Eventually, I realized that I was an "Event binge drinker" and needed to stop, or make a medical reservation for a new liver and brain.  This realization worked for attenuation for about twenty years, but I never actually quit drinking alcohol so long as someone else was buying.   I was one of those cheap drunks you see at company parties, wakes, and weddings, which still made me an event binge drinker.

Then my 16 year old daughter's boy friend brought her home one night as she was stoned out of her mind, apparently on pure grain alcohol mixed with Kool Aide.  I was furious, and couldn't seem to comprehend that children often follow the example that their parents set.  This was true for me, and it was true for her.  So, I went though my home, collected all of my bottles and poured the contents down the drain.  I sent my 16 year old to a rehab clinic, and I joined Alcoholic's Anonymous and have been abstaining from alcohol and sober since April 17th, 1984 @ 17:00.

One of the greatest attractions of the practice of Buddhism for me was and has been the fifth precept.  I am reminded of its value every time I see a traffic fatality report due to a drunk colliding with and killing a family in another car.

Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 21, 2017, 01:27:38 am
Awesome work, you are on a beautiful roll!
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 21, 2017, 04:15:47 am
... inspired by the beneficial results of fidelity...

... have been abstaining from alcohol and sober since April 17th, 1984 @ 17:00....

... What does seems to work is to talk things out and to be certain never to go to bed angry...

 :sun: :sunny: :-bd  :namaste:
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: Ron-the-Elder on July 23, 2017, 10:15:17 am
Meditation

My first experience with meditation was after having read a book by Jon Kabat-Zinn a well known author and practitioner regarding the topic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Kabat-Zinn (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Kabat-Zinn)

Zinn studied under Tich Naht Hahn and Master Seung Zahn.  He was one of the founders of The Cambridge Zen Center.

My second group experience was with The Rochester, N.Y. Zen Center along with The Flour City Buddhist Meditation Group, which practiced both Zen type sitting, and Walking meditation.  It was with this group that I was exposed again to the writings of Tich Naht Hahn, with whom I was familiar from my tangential exposure to Zen Buddhism while serving in Hue', South Vietnam during the Vietnam War.

Next I joined a Laotian Theravadin group in Rochester, N.Y., where I first became exposed to Theravadin Monks and Bhikkhunis, while the Laotian community was building their temple

Through my studies of Buddha's teachings within the Pali Canon, and The Tipi Taka, I became familiar with Vipassana , or Insight Meditation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vipassan%C4%81 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vipassan%C4%81)

Then I discoverd "breath" , or samantha meditation:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/inmind.html (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/inmind.html)

Each of these methods, from my experience, has their application due to my current life circumstances. When there is a problem with which I am concerned, insight meditation seems to be the way for me to go.  When I am attempting to deepen my experience with meditation practice in general, or feel a need to expand my deliverance of compassion, then samantha seems right. When confronted with frustrating life circumstances such as long lines, or seemingly endless collumns of traffic on the expressway due to a collision somewhere ahead, unseen, simply focussing on and being mindfull of the breath seems the right way to go.

But, there is a type of meditation, which I found / and still find most practical and of benefit when experiencing what I refer to as "The Monkey Mind", a mental state of unresolved conflict, what we referred to in first year psychology as "mental dissonance".  That is where simply observing my mind without any form of intentional interfearence seems to work best.

This practice reminds me of a poem, which I recall from The Dhammapadda:  "The mind leads the heart as the Ox pulls the cart."   As both Buddha and later Zinn pointed out, if our minds are out of control, then our actions are predisposed to follow. :namaste:


Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: Ron-the-Elder on July 25, 2017, 01:12:46 pm
Taking Refuge

"I Take refuge in The Buddha,The Dhamma , and The Sangha "  (corrected - Thanks for your assistance.)

Quote
A refuge supreme

They go to many a refuge,
to mountains and forests,
to park and tree shrines:
people threatened with danger.

That's not the secure refuge,
not the supreme refuge,
that's not the refuge,
having gone to which,
you gain release from all suffering & stress.

But when, having gone
to the Buddha, Dhamma,
& Sangha for refuge,
you see with right discernment
the four noble truths  —
stress,
the cause of stress,
the transcending of stress,
& the noble eight-fold path,
the way to the stilling of stress:
that's the secure refuge,
that, the supreme refuge,
that is the refuge,
having gone to which,
you gain release from all suffering & stress.

— Dhp 188-192
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: Pixie on July 25, 2017, 02:25:37 pm
Taking Refuge

"I Take refuge in The Buddha, The Sangha, and The Dhamma"



I was taught that it was: "I take refuge in the Buddha , I take refuge in the Dhamma, I take refuge in the Sangha" - in that order.

This is Bhikkhu Bodhi's version:

Quote
Buddham saranam gacchami
I go for refuge to the Buddha;

Dhammam saranam gacchami
I go for refuge to the Dhamma;

Sangham saranam gacchami
I go for refuge to the Sangha.

[url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel282.html[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel282.html[/url])




_/|\_
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: Chaz on July 25, 2017, 03:56:27 pm
Taking Refuge

"I Take refuge in The Buddha, The Sangha, and The Dhamma"



I was taught that it was: "I take refuge in the Buddha , I take refuge in the Dhamma, I take refuge in the Sangha" - in that order.

This is Bhikkhu Bodhi's version:

Quote
Buddham saranam gacchami
I go for refuge to the Buddha;

Dhammam saranam gacchami
I go for refuge to the Dhamma;

Sangham saranam gacchami
I go for refuge to the Sangha.

[url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel282.html[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel282.html[/url])




_/|\_


Same here - Buddha, Dharma, Sangha.  However, since taking up tantric practice I take a "six-fold refuge" which, along with the the trditional refuge in the Buddha Dharma and Sangha, refuge is also taken in Guru, Yidams, and Protectors
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: Ron-the-Elder on July 26, 2017, 03:24:55 am
Thanks to Pixie and Idle for your input regarding the order of refuge.

It is interesting to me that in my mind I suppose the order of importance to my practice of refuge has truly become :  Sangha, Dhamma, and Buddha as it applies to daily life.  By this I mean that the way I practice brings me first to The Sangha, which is the resource for Buddhist studies.  The Sangha for me became  the door leading to the other two.  Just as Buddha taught, this for me has become a life-long process of study, understanding, and practice.

The Buddha wrote: 

Quote
Monks, I do not say that the attainment of gnosis is all at once. Rather, the attainment of gnosis is after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice. And how is there the attainment of gnosis after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice?

There is the case where, when conviction has arisen, one visits [a teacher]. Having visited, one grows close. Having grown close, one lends ear. Having lent ear, one hears the Dhamma. Having heard the Dhamma, one remembers it. Remembering, one penetrates the meaning of the teachings. Penetrating the meaning, one comes to an agreement through pondering the teachings. There being an agreement through pondering the teachings, desire arises. When desire has arisen, one is willing. When one is willing, one contemplates. Having contemplated, one makes an exertion. Having made an exertion, one realizes with the body the ultimate truth and, having penetrated it with discernment, sees it.

— MN 70



In a sense The Sangha became the doorway to my teacher, since Buddha was dead for thousands of years before I began my personal practice.

Truly it was the Holy Sangha (The original followers of The Buddha), which memorized and later (hundreds of years) documented the Buddha's teachings and taught them to new students and followers like you and I.  It is here on this online sangha that we discuss what we have heard, what we have studied, what we have learned, and it is here in sharing what we have experienced in this pursuit that we have the opportunity to correct, and cement our understanding of The Dhamma.

Ironically and very interestingly, it is through the dhamma that we come to appreciate the significance of this Teacher of Gods, and  Teacher of Mankind:  The Buddha :r4wheel:

In this line of thinking one of Buddha's quotes which stays with me is:
Quote
  "He who knows the dhamma knows me."


Stated in a commentary: 
Quote
The Buddha is the Dhamma; the Dhamma is the Buddha. He didn't take away the knowledge he awakened to. He left it right here. To put it in simple terms, it's like the teachers in schools. They haven't been teachers from birth. They had to study the course of study for teachers before they could be teachers, teaching in school and getting paid. After a while, they'll die away — away from being teachers. But you can say that in a way the teachers don't die. The qualities that make people into teachers remain right here. It's the same with the Buddha. The noble truths that made him the Buddha still remain right here. They haven't run off anywhere at all.


source:  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/chah/insimpleterms.html (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/chah/insimpleterms.html)
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: ground on July 26, 2017, 05:12:20 am
Quote
"Monks, be islands unto yourselves, be your own refuge, having no other; let the Dhamma be an island and a refuge to you, having no other.

[url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.043.wlsh.html[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.043.wlsh.html[/url])


Buddha and sangha are dispensable.
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 26, 2017, 09:17:20 am
Quote
"Monks, be islands unto yourselves, be your own refuge, having no other; let the Dhamma be an island and a refuge to you, having no other.

[url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.043.wlsh.html[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.043.wlsh.html[/url])


Buddha and sangha are dispensable.


Whose Dhamma according to who?
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: ground on July 26, 2017, 10:32:07 am
Quote
"Monks, be islands unto yourselves, be your own refuge, having no other; let the Dhamma be an island and a refuge to you, having no other.

[url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.043.wlsh.html[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.043.wlsh.html[/url])


Buddha and sangha are dispensable.


Also it doesn't  make sense when a living persons tries to takes refuge to a dead person. What results from such an irrational attempt is that the dead person will be worshipped like a god and such an attitude is contradictory with buddhist view.

What one may take refuge to is one's own perception and mind when studying authentic buddhist texts. This then is also an aspect of being one's own refuge as the buddha suggested according to the sutta quoted from.
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 26, 2017, 10:35:46 am
Buddha or the True Buddha does not represent to me a man. The word Buddha can and does often refer to the person of Siddhartha Gautama but can also refer to something beyond such or their bodily realities.
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: Pixie on July 26, 2017, 01:18:33 pm
Quote from: ground
Also it doesn't  make sense when a living persons tries to takes refuge to a dead person. What results from such an irrational attempt is that the dead person will be worshipped like a god and such an attitude is contradictory with buddhist view.

What one may take refuge to is one's own perception and mind when studying authentic buddhist texts. This then is also an aspect of being one's own refuge as the buddha suggested according to the sutta quoted from.


Ven.Ajahn Sumedho wrote a short article "Buddha.Dhamma, Sangha" which is worth reading - and he concludes:

"It is not a matter of believing in Buddha Dhamma Sangha, not a faith in concepts but a using of symbols for mindfulness, for awakening the mind here-and-now, being here-and-now."

[url]http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma2/bds.html[/url] ([url]http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma2/bds.html[/url])



_/|\_
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 26, 2017, 02:11:42 pm
Funny Story: Once someone was talking to someone else who was not "here & now" and they didn't seem to hear them.

Funny Question: Who is not "here & now"?

Funny Answer: No one.

Funny Interjection: How about two?
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: Chaz on July 26, 2017, 02:20:25 pm
Quote
"Monks, be islands unto yourselves, be your own refuge, having no other; let the Dhamma be an island and a refuge to you, having no other.

[url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.043.wlsh.html[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.043.wlsh.html[/url])


Buddha and sangha are dispensable.


Buzzkill ....
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: Pixie on July 26, 2017, 02:38:52 pm
deleted
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: Chaz on July 26, 2017, 02:45:21 pm
Thanks to Pixie and Idle for your input regarding the order of refuge.

It is interesting to me that in my mind I suppose the order of importance to my practice of refuge has truly become :  Sangha, Dhamma, and Buddha as it applies to daily life.

That's cool.  At the day's end, I don't think it makes any difference  what order you view them and I'm not sure one is more important than the other.  With 6-fold refuge, there are a lot of Buddhists that have never heard of it.  It's all good.

Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: Pixie on July 26, 2017, 02:46:17 pm
Funny Story: Once someone was talking to someone else who was not "here & now" and they didn't seem to hear them.

Funny Question: Who is not "here & now"?

Funny Answer: No one.

Funny Interjection: How about two?



(http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries.com/dazz/trollin.jpg)
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: The Artis Magistra on July 26, 2017, 06:35:26 pm
Funny Story: Once someone was talking to someone else who was not "here & now" and they didn't seem to hear them.

Funny Question: Who is not "here & now"?

Funny Answer: No one.

Funny Interjection: How about two?



([url]http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries.com/dazz/trollin.jpg[/url])


I'm not trolling though. I don't know why people often think I am no matter where I go.
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: Ron-the-Elder on July 27, 2017, 09:43:03 pm
Dhamma Study

There are numerous online sites, which provide translations of Buddha's teachings, commentaries, The Dhamma Pada,  The Jataka Tales, illustrated stories for both adults and children, video , and audio lectures from noted Buddhist scholars, Buddhist communities, which specialize in continuing the dissemination of Buddha's words.

In addition to all of these are WIKIs, which specialize in historical and biographical data regarding Buddhist history, and scholarly discussions of  Buddhist traditions and the contributions, which they have made to the documentation and preservation of The Buddha's words and advisories.

Today we can read daily dhamma talks from Bhikkhu's and Bhikkhuni's from all over the world, and even ask them questions that have arisen during our pursuit of the understanding of Buddha's teachings, ancient and current culture, architecture, and other Buddhist matters.

Various motion pictures and documentaries have been produced over the years:  Sidhartha is one of my personal favorites, which tells the story of Buddha from birth till his death while on Earth as a bodhisatta before his enlightenment.  Another I enjoyed was "Summer Fall Winter Spring", which was about a Korean Zen Priest and a boy he cared for who was abandoned at his monastery. 

Service to the Buddhist Community

From 1998 till today I have been personally involved in various capacities as a volunteer offering both lay and monastic services, which facilitate the translation, interpretation, and dissemination of Buddha's words as translated by scholarlarly monastics, who have made it their life's work to translate and disseminate Buddha's words and the words of early monastic followers, some from the original Holy Sangha.

I also have acted, and still currently act in the capacity of a phone and personal service contact for those visiting our community and/or looking for Buddhist fellowship and/or support in our ecumenical organization, The Unitarian Universalist Church of Concord, N.H., U.S.A.

Our Website here at Free Sangha provides ample lists of contact information for Buddhist organizations of many traditions, which I have personally utilized, and recommend to newcomers.

I have found participation in such organization an important and rewarding part of personal practice and recommend that everyone, who has an interest contribute both their time and financial resources to the organizations of their choice.  It is through such personal efforts and contributions that Buddha's teachings continue to reach all those, who have an interest in studying and living The Dhamma.

Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: ground on July 28, 2017, 08:42:52 am
Dhamma Study

There are numerous online sites, which provide translations of Buddha's teachings, commentaries, The Dhamma Pada,  The Jataka Tales, illustrated stories for both adults and children, video , and audio lectures from noted Buddhist scholars, Buddhist communities, which specialize in continuing the dissemination of Buddha's words.


I think you're a bit biased. There is nothing to say against the pali konon resources but one should mention that there is a variety of other buddhist resources, especially from Mahayana buddhism which comprises vajrayana.
E.g. I would especially recommend the prajnaparamita sutras and the madhyamaka philosophies arising in the wake of these.
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: Ron-the-Elder on July 28, 2017, 10:14:35 am
Quote
ground "I think you're a bit biased."

True.  We are all biased based upon our own experiences with regard to our individual practices.   The idea of this thread is to share our individual practice experience.  Thank you for sharing  your experience.   Feel free to share more of your own experiences both here and throughout the website.

Mahayana is much broader than vajrayana as others have already shared in this thread and in other forum locations within Free Sangha.
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: ground on July 28, 2017, 01:10:01 pm
Mahayana is much broader than vajrayana as others have already shared in this thread and in other forum locations within Free Sangha.
That is certainly not the case which is evidence that one should not go by what others say but study authentic buddhist texts.
Vajrayana is no different from Mahayana but applies skillful means that accelerate the progress towards buddhahood.
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 28, 2017, 02:44:38 pm
E.g. I would especially recommend the prajnaparamita sutras and the madhyamaka philosophies arising in the wake of these.

Why u spamming this thread with your fundamentalism to written ideologies? This is a practise thread. Prajnaparamita such as the Chinese created Heart Sutra and Madhyamaka often cannot be practised. Often they are only intellectual philosophies or superstitions. That is why Mahayana practise teachers like Thích Nhất Hạnh say they have errors.

If you could actually write a clear post about how you actually practise these ideologies then maybe you could share something useful and change other people's attitudes towards these superstitions.

But, for now, ideas such as there is no suffering, no end of suffering, no eye, no ear, no nose, etc, are pure superstition & unBuddhist.
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: Chaz on July 28, 2017, 05:03:37 pm
E.g. I would especially recommend the prajnaparamita sutras and the madhyamaka philosophies arising in the wake of these.

Why u spamming this thread with your fundamentalism to written ideologies? This is a practise thread. Prajnaparamita such as the Chinese created Heart Sutra and Madhyamaka often cannot be practised.

They can.  The Heart Sutra is a used as a pre-meditation chanting practice by many, including me.  The Madhyamaka practice of reduction towards the middle is a usefull approach to analytical meditation.

Quote
Often they are only intellectual philosophies or superstitions. That is why Mahayana practise teachers like Thích Nhất Hạnh say they have errors.

What errors are those?

Quote
But, for now, ideas such as there is no suffering, no end of suffering, no eye, no ear, no nose, etc, are pure superstition & unBuddhist.

You misquote - it should be In emptiness, there is no .....  see https://www.lamayeshe.com/article/heart-sutra. (https://www.lamayeshe.com/article/heart-sutra.)

They are not superstition and un Buddhist. 

Ground may be and do a lot of things, but his post is far from spamming.


Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 28, 2017, 07:19:08 pm
What errors are those?

What I wrote. If there is no eye, no ear, no nose, no tongue, etc, then what exactly is this 'eye', 'ear', 'nose', 'tongue', etc, that is sought to be negated & deemed to not exist?  if there is no eye & no body, how is this internet page read & typed on? If there is no Free Sangha Buddhist forum; then what is this?   

 :teehee:

Quote
So, in emptiness, there is no body,
no feeling, no thought,
no will, no consciousness.
There are no eyes, no ears,
no nose, no tongue,
no body, no mind.
There is no seeing, no hearing,
no smelling, no tasting,
no touching, no imagining.
There is nothing seen, nor heard,
nor smelled, nor tasted,
nor touched, nor imagined.

There is no ignorance,
and no end to ignorance.
There is no old age and death,
and no end to old age and death.
There is no suffering, no cause of suffering,
no end to suffering, no path to follow.
There is no attainment of wisdom,
and no wisdom to attain.


 :lmfao:
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 28, 2017, 07:21:17 pm
 :focus:
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 28, 2017, 07:45:16 pm
The Precepts:

"Abstaining from sexual misconduct.".

Thank you Ron for generously kindly & sharing your life story & practise. I will contribute also.

Before I discovered Buddhism & religion, my 'spiritual life' started when I left my girlfriend of 4 years & she became severely heartbroken. While I felt no obligation to her (since we never signed any kind of contract) & tried my best to support her, I came to the intuitive disposition to not have sexual relations with a woman unless I was committed to her. Since I had no interest in commitment & marriage, I intuitively become celibate; even though I began working at that time as a manager in the hospitality industry and had many keen female employees & customers.

Around 20 months later I wandered into a Buddhist monastery when travelling in Asia and discovered meditation, which satisfied my search & my life. After doing four meditation retreats, I was completely satisfied with Buddhism as a way of life. While sex has not been an aspect of my life for many years now, my spiritual life began intuitively from not wanting to cause harm with sex. This is why I consider the sexual misconduct precept to be maybe the most important because, to me, it greatly determines our capacity to truly love others.

 :twocents:
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 28, 2017, 08:02:01 pm
Precepts:

"Abstain from mind altering substances."

Before the relationship ending with my girlfriend, I was very keen on smoking marijuana. For the most part, my close friends (but not my girlfriend) would get very high & expanded and listen to really good music, watch one or two really good bands or jam with guitars. Occasionally I got drunk but was mostly a marijuana user.

However, a few days after the devastation of my girlfriend, I took my friends to watch a psychedelic & environmental movie called Koyaanisqatsi, which someone had taken me to view a few weeks before. We were stoned watching the movie & my friends were laughing at it. They did not understand it. The thought arose in my mind they were idiots. Then I thought of my friend, my girlfriend, and said to myself: "You are here stoned watching a movie & she is devastated. You do not even know what you are doing with your life & how you are affecting others".

After that, I stopped smoking marijuana & didn't drink, apart from an occasional small social drink after work with the employees.

Later, I came to realise the phrase: "Sex-drugs-&-rocknroll" is so apt. When I lost interest in sex, I simultaneously lost interest in drugs & rocknroll. Although I continued to learn music, I only listened to spiritual jazz-rock-fusion music.

Even although at the time my mind developed some existential dilemmas, I felt very free, strong, unburdened & relieved by dropping sex & drugs.

 :twocents:
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 28, 2017, 08:19:50 pm
The Precepts:

"Cause no harm to sentient beings / living beings."

While I was always an anti-war person, the 1st time I had a spiritual premonition about non-killing was at this same traumatic time with my girlfriend. I was shocked by her devastation. Previously, my father was a very good fisherman & my friends & I would get stoned often and go fishing. But with my father, I would never catch any fish and he would catch so many fish and he would make fun of me.

One afternoon, I felt sad about my ex-girlfriend and decided to go fishing alone in a quiet place. My father made fun of me, saying I would not catch anything. I was determined to catch something. I was fishing for about two hours and it was getting dark. I caught nothing but suddenly, as I was about to leave, I large fish hooked on my fishing line. I got very excited, thinking: "I will show the old man". I was standing on a rock at the edge of the ocean and as I was pulling the fish from the water something in me hesitated. The fish was looking at me in the eye & I was looking into the fish's eye. I froze. I felt sympathy for the fish. Then a small wave pushed the fish against the rock and it fell off my hook. I felt very happy. I felt what is the purpose of this fishing? I returned home & my father asked me how I went & I quietly said: "No luck".

From that time, I also stopped fishing with my father & friends (although I do recall fishing only once on a holiday alone, where I caught some dinner). But that was the first time I felt compassion towards an ordinary lifeform, such as a fish.

Over the past two months, where I live, people are catching so many fish. I see them everyday on my morning work. I would save me money on food if I fished. They suggest I do. But I decline. While I do not think it is bad kamma to fish for food, I prefer not to.

 :twocents:

Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 28, 2017, 08:28:17 pm
Precepts:  "Take not that which has not been freely given."

I have never had any real problems with this precept although temptations can arise.

For example, down the street the local council just mulched lots of mulch from old trees for their use on the local public & street gardens. It is tempting to steal some for my garden but naturally I will not.

Or I have started this financial year badly in my business (even though it should be OK by years end but I cannot predict). I could dishonestly adjust last years tax income down (by adjusting my stock on hand at the end of the year) in a way which means simply having more tax income this year. But I will not do it.

Why create worry & regret for smallish things.  :twocents:
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 28, 2017, 08:40:45 pm
Precepts:

Refraining from incorrect speech.

Fortunately, the precept of speech for Buddhist lay people is refraining from false or dishonest speech, namely, lying. I have never had any problems with this although it has been my downfall at crucial times in life where I refused to engage in politically correct speech, such as professionally. But you move on. Who wants to work with dishonest corrupt people, anyway?

As for pleasant & non-divisive speech (which are two of the four factors of Right Speech in the Noble Eightfold Path), to perfect this would make Buddhist internet forums boring & unchallenging.

 :teehee: :twocents:
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: ground on July 29, 2017, 12:51:13 am
E.g. I would especially recommend the prajnaparamita sutras and the madhyamaka philosophies arising in the wake of these.

Why u spamming this thread with your fundamentalism to written ideologies?
I am not spamming this thread but I am adding additional features of practise since this thread is for 'various practitioners' not only for theravada practitioners.

This is a practise thread. Prajnaparamita such as the Chinese created Heart Sutra and Madhyamaka often cannot be practised.
If you don't consider mind to be the agent of practise then you should practise physical yoga. If mind weren't the agent of practise how could Bāhiya have attained liberation through merely hearing the words of the buddha?


If you could actually write a clear post about how you actually practise these ideologies then maybe you could share something useful and change other people's attitudes towards these superstitions.
These are not ideologies but expressions of ultimate reality that is concealed by ordinary mind. Since there are already many clear-cut treatises revealing the meaning of the prajnaparamita sutras and the madhyamaka philosophies I do not have to re-invent the wheel.
Words are the expression of experience but words are not the experience that they express..

But, for now, ideas such as there is no suffering, no end of suffering, no eye, no ear, no nose, etc, are pure superstition & unBuddhist.
If you were right then liberation would be impossible. So actually your words are very 'unBuddhist'.
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: ground on July 29, 2017, 01:07:00 am
What errors are those?

What I wrote. If there is no eye, no ear, no nose, no tongue, etc, then what exactly is this 'eye', 'ear', 'nose', 'tongue', etc, that is sought to be negated & deemed to not exist?  if there is no eye & no body, how is this internet page read & typed on? If there is no Free Sangha Buddhist forum; then what is this?   
See, you misunderstanding is exactly the reason why the meaning of thes sutras had to be revealed by budddhist masters. These sutras often jump to an outright expression of ultimate reality. But how could ultimate reality be consistently expressed by means of conventional words? It is impossible! On the other hand how could someone be led to perceive ultimate reality him-/herself without using conventional words? This is impossible, too!
So there is a dilemma and this dilemma is resolved by the madhyamaka philosophies which show how to access ultimate reality rationally. But accessing ultimate reality rationally only leads to a concordant concept of ultimate reality. While a concordant concept of ultimate reality is not direct perception of ultimate reality it is however is the prerequisite for direct perception of ultimate reality. But - althouth it is a prerequisite - knowing the concordant concept of ultimate reality does not necesessarily effect the direct perception of ultimate reality.
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: Dairy Lama on July 29, 2017, 01:26:30 am
What I wrote. If there is no eye, no ear, no nose, no tongue, etc, then what exactly is this 'eye', 'ear', 'nose', 'tongue', etc, that is sought to be negated & deemed to not exist?  if there is no eye & no body, how is this internet page read & typed on? If there is no Free Sangha Buddhist forum; then what is this?   

No, it means that these things do not have independent existence, so all is conditional.  It is the same conditionality expressed in teachings like anatta, anicca, dependent origination, the Four Noble Truths, etc.
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 29, 2017, 03:57:52 am
It means that these things do not have independent existence, so all is conditional.

Definitely not. This idea is merely intellectual rather than an insight from meditation. In meditation, the eye is seen to arise, function & cease; arise, function & cease. It is seen as impermanent. But it is not seen as "no eye". Please refer to MN 148.

 
It is the same conditionality expressed in teachings like anatta, anicca, dependent origination, the Four Noble Truths, etc.

No. It is not. Anatta teaches the eye is not-self. Anicca teaches the eye is impermanent. Dependent origination teaches when the eye is polluted by ignorance, what is seen via the eye will result in suffering. The four noble truths teach craving & attachment towards the eye will cause the arising of suffering. None of these teachings say there is "no eye". That is why the Pali suttas include the eye as one of the elements (refer to MN 115).

What you posted Spiny is superstition. It does not exist. It is not true. It is false. :namaste:
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 29, 2017, 04:00:31 am
See, you misunderstanding is exactly the reason why the meaning of thes sutras had to be revealed by budddhist masters.

The sutras appear to have been written by idiots rather than by masters. As I posted previously, this is a practise thread.

Please tell us how you practise to realise there is no eye, no ear, no nose, etc. Thanks  :teehee:
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 29, 2017, 04:04:50 am
See, you misunderstanding is exactly the reason why the meaning of thes sutras had to be revealed by budddhist masters.

Please tell us how these so-called "masters" wrote down their teachings without an eye and without a body? Please tell us how to practise to read this webpage when their is no eye. Thanks

 :lmfao:
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: ground on July 29, 2017, 05:05:53 am
See, you misunderstanding is exactly the reason why the meaning of thes sutras had to be revealed by budddhist masters.

The sutras appear to have been written by idiots rather than by masters. As I posted previously, this is a practise thread.

Please tell us how you practise to realise there is no eye, no ear, no nose, etc. Thanks  :teehee:
See, you misunderstanding is exactly the reason why the meaning of thes sutras had to be revealed by budddhist masters.

Please tell us how these so-called "masters" wrote down their teachings without an eye and without a body? Please tell us how to practise to read this webpage when their is no eye. Thanks

 :lmfao:

Don't you play the silly one!

As explained already above one practices through realizing the intended meaning:

See, you misunderstanding is exactly the reason why the meaning of thes sutras had to be revealed by budddhist masters. These sutras often jump to an outright expression of ultimate reality. But how could ultimate reality be consistently expressed by means of conventional words? It is impossible! On the other hand how could someone be led to perceive ultimate reality him-/herself without using conventional words? This is impossible, too!
So there is a dilemma and this dilemma is resolved by the madhyamaka philosophies which show how to access ultimate reality rationally. But accessing ultimate reality rationally only leads to a concordant concept of ultimate reality. While a concordant concept of ultimate reality is not direct perception of ultimate reality it is however is the prerequisite for direct perception of ultimate reality. But - althouth it is a prerequisite - knowing the concordant concept of ultimate reality does not necesessarily effect the direct perception of ultimate reality.
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: ground on July 29, 2017, 05:16:36 am
... Dependent origination teaches when the eye is polluted by ignorance, what is seen via the eye will result in suffering.

That's exactly what the prajnaparamita sutras aim at: to remove the innate misperception of phenomena which causes stress, not necessarily suffering which is a bad translation of 'dukkha'.

Of course one may critizise the words that are applied in those sutras but the heart sutra you are quoting and ridiculing is spoken in meditative absorption.
Quote
"When the Bodhisattva Avalokitesvara."

"Was Coursing in the Deep Prajna Paramita."

"He Perceived That All Five Skandhas Are Empty."

...
"Therefore, in the Void There Are no ...


What is the insight through non-perception in absoption of that which is perceived by ordinary mind?

The insight is that all phenomena are dependent on the mode of consciousness which perceives them. They appear different to different modes of consciousness and in some modes they don't even exist and therefore the way they appear to ordinary mind is not the way they ultimately exist.

So negating eye, ear etc refers to eye, ear etc as perceived by ordinary mind. The objects perceived by ordinary mind do not exist in other modes of consciousness. Why? Because ordinary mind perceives all phenomena as if truly existing but they are empty of true existence.
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: Chaz on July 29, 2017, 06:06:39 am
What errors are those?

What I wrote. If there is no eye, no ear, no nose, no tongue, etc, then what exactly is this 'eye', 'ear', 'nose', 'tongue', etc, that is sought to be negated & deemed to not exist?  if there is no eye & no body, how is this internet page read & typed on? If there is no Free Sangha Buddhist forum; then what is this?   

It is, what it is.  It's just that in emptiness there is none of that.

Things like eye, ear, nose and so are merely words, imputatations we assign to objects.  They have no connection to anything real.  This is what teachings on emptiness are imparting.  Not everyone grasps this.  It's obvious you don't.  It doesn't mean the teaching is in error.

You ask a legitimate question:  "Then what is this?".  This is what practice will reveal.  To simply read the words isn't enough.  To really to get to the underlying meaning you must peel away the many layers of confusion, ignorance and obscuration.  This is why we practice.

Or at least some of us.  :wink1:
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 29, 2017, 01:45:06 pm
Things like eye, ear, nose and so are merely words, imputatations we assign to objects.  They have no connection to anything real.

This is not true. The eye & ear are not merely words.

For example, if there are no thoughts, the eye still functions.

When the eye is closed, it stops functioning because seeing stops.

When the eye is opened, seeing returns.

There is 'something' there which is called an 'eye'. Whether this 'something' is named or not named, it still exists.

What you posted, the Buddha never taught. It is irrelevant non-sense & unrelated to practise.

 :eek:
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 29, 2017, 01:57:01 pm
These sutras often jump to an outright expression of ultimate reality. But how could ultimate reality be consistently expressed by means of conventional words? It is impossible!

This is unrelated to liberation. Liberation in Buddhism is defined as the destruction of craving (rather than the destruction of words or concepts). Therefore, when there is liberation & Nibbana, words can be used because words in themselves do not cause suffering. Only craving & attachment cause suffering.

These ideas are Taoist, which found their way into Chinese Buddhism. The Heart Sutra is a Chinese rather than Indian composition, I read.

On the other hand how could someone be led to perceive ultimate reality him-/herself without using conventional words? This is impossible, too!

The ultimate reality of Buddhism is the ultimate reality or true nature of suffering & its cessation. It is unrelated to the Taoist ideas you are posting about the sphere of nothingness. Prior to his awakening, the Buddha rejected the sphere of nothingness as Nibbana because it is only a temporary state of mind.

So there is a dilemma and this dilemma is resolved by the madhyamaka philosophies which show how to access ultimate reality rationally. But accessing ultimate reality rationally only leads to a concordant concept of ultimate reality. While a concordant concept of ultimate reality is not direct perception of ultimate reality it is however is the prerequisite for direct perception of ultimate reality. But - although it is a prerequisite - knowing the concordant concept of ultimate reality does not necessarily effect the direct perception of ultimate reality.

The sphere of nothingness is not related to ultimate reality. It is conditioned. The Buddha clearly taught what you are posting about is conditioned. This is the ultimate reality of what you are posting, namely, it is conditioned; conditioned due to being dependent upon non-thinking. It is immaterial becoming, one of three types of becoming in dependent origination. It is becoming because of your attachment to it; as demonstrated by your desperate posts here.

 ;D

Quote
One discerns that 'If I were to direct equanimity as pure & bright as this towards the dimension of the infinitude of space and to develop the mind along those lines, that would be fabricated. One discerns that 'If I were to direct equanimity as pure and bright as this towards the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception and to develop the mind along those lines, that would be fabricated.' One neither fabricates nor mentally fashions for the sake of becoming or un-becoming. This being the case, one is not sustained by anything in the world (does not cling to anything in the world). Unsustained, one is not agitated. Unagitated, one is totally unbound right within. One discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

MN 140
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on July 29, 2017, 02:00:55 pm
This is what practice will reveal.  To simply read the words isn't enough.  To really to get to the underlying meaning you must peel away the many layers of confusion, ignorance and obscuration.  This is why we practice.

Or at least some of us.  :wink1:

Please stop lying. You are claiming to be enlightened but your posts do not show this. Thanks

People obsessed with non-thinking are generally those with minds full of thinking. When the thinking stops, this is where the journey or path begins (rather than ends).

It is obvious peeling away the many layers of confusion, ignorance and obscuration has not occurred. This is obviously merely an idea you read in a book or heard from a teacher & are repeating.

The very fact the term "us" was used shows there is still self-view in the mind.

The Buddha taught:

Quote
When things become manifest
To the ardent meditating brahman,
All his doubts then vanish since he understands
Each thing along with its cause.

Buddhist enlightenment is seeing each thing along with its cause (rather than non-thinking).

Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: Chaz on July 29, 2017, 02:46:09 pm

What you posted, the Buddha never taught.

Errr...yes he did.  It's called the the second time the Buddha turned the Wheel of Dharma.

Quote
It is irrelevant non-sense

I would say that in your personal case, that is entirely true.

 
Quote
unrelated to practise.

I can see it, in your case.  I'm quite certain your practice hasn't extended that far.
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: ground on July 29, 2017, 08:48:27 pm
These sutras often jump to an outright expression of ultimate reality. But how could ultimate reality be consistently expressed by means of conventional words? It is impossible!


This is unrelated to liberation. Liberation in Buddhism is defined as the destruction of craving (rather than the destruction of words or concepts). Therefore, when there is liberation & Nibbana, words can be used because words in themselves do not cause suffering. Only craving & attachment cause suffering.

Of course words can be used. Words must be used. However the concepts arising upon seeing words are not liberation. But the realization of the intended meaning of prajnaparamita sutras is liberation. Through that realization craving is destroyed.


On the other hand how could someone be led to perceive ultimate reality him-/herself without using conventional words? This is impossible, too!


The ultimate reality of Buddhism is the ultimate reality or true nature of suffering & its cessation.

Correct. It is about the ultimate nature of all phenomena incl.  suffering and its cessation.

It is unrelated to the Taoist ideas you are posting about the sphere of nothingness. Prior to h.is awakening, the Buddha rejected the sphere of nothingness as Nibbana because it is only a temporary state of mind.

The sphere of nothingness is one of countless modes of consciousness. So there is nothing special about it. Sphere of ordinary mind  or sphere of nothingness or sphere of the form realm ... all are of one taste from the perspective of dzogchen which is ultimately valid.

So there is a dilemma and this dilemma is resolved by the madhyamaka philosophies which show how to access ultimate reality rationally. But accessing ultimate reality rationally only leads to a concordant concept of ultimate reality. While a concordant concept of ultimate reality is not direct perception of ultimate reality it is however is the prerequisite for direct perception of ultimate reality. But - although it is a prerequisite - knowing the concordant concept of ultimate reality does not necessarily effect the direct perception of ultimate reality.


The sphere of nothingness is not related to ultimate reality.

Well, it is related to utimate reality because it is a relative sphere. But of course it is not ultimate reality.

But you still do not recognize that the sphere of nothingness is not even the sphere the prajanaparamita sutras are referring to. I have explained already above that you are completely misinterpreting the heart sutra:
So negating eye, ear etc refers to eye, ear etc as perceived by ordinary mind. The objects perceived by ordinary mind do not exist in other modes of consciousness. Why? Because ordinary mind perceives all phenomena as if truly existing but they are empty of true existence.



It is conditioned.

Correct. Everything is conditioned. your view is conditioned too. the four noble truths are conditioned view too.

The Buddha clearly taught what you are posting about is conditioned.

Of course. There is nothing that is not conditioned. Even what is called 'ultimate reality' is conditioned. Nirvana is conditioned. Samsara is conditioned.

This is the ultimate reality of what you are posting, namely, it is conditioned;

Great! Everything we all are posting here is conditioned.

conditioned due to being dependent upon non-thinking.

But both, thinking and non-thinking are conditioned, too.

It is immaterial becoming, one of three types of becoming in dependent origination. It is becoming because of your attachment to it; as demonstrated by your desperate posts here.

 :teehee:
Where can attachment be found in words? Under, over, between, before or behind the characters these words are composed of?



Quote
One discerns that 'If I were to direct equanimity as pure & bright as this towards the dimension of the infinitude of space and to develop the mind along those lines, that would be fabricated. One discerns that 'If I were to direct equanimity as pure and bright as this towards the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception and to develop the mind along those lines, that would be fabricated.' One neither fabricates nor mentally fashions for the sake of becoming or un-becoming. This being the case, one is not sustained by anything in the world (does not cling to anything in the world). Unsustained, one is not agitated. Unagitated, one is totally unbound right within. One discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

MN 140



Quote
"He discerns that 'This [result of meditative practice] is fabricated & mentally fashioned.' And he discerns that 'Whatever is fabricated & mentally fashioned is inconstant & subject to cessation.' For him — thus knowing, thus seeing — the mind is released from the effluent of sensuality, the effluent of becoming, the effluent of ignorance. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

[url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.121.than.html[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.121.than.html[/url])
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: Tyler on July 29, 2017, 11:32:03 pm
Deleted
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: Pixie on July 30, 2017, 12:35:37 am
As the Heart Sutra was being discussed here, I wondered if Ven Thich Nhat Hanh's translation of the Heart Sutra (posted at Plum Village website 3 years ago) and his message "The Reasons for a New Translation " might be helpful.

https://plumvillage.org/news/thich-nhat-hanh-new-heart-sutra-translation/ (https://plumvillage.org/news/thich-nhat-hanh-new-heart-sutra-translation/)


Excerpt from his message :

"Dear Family,

Thay needs to make this new translation of the Heart Sutra because the patriarch who originally compiled the Heart Sutra was not sufficiently skilful enough with his use of language. This has resulted in much misunderstanding for almost 2,000 years.

Thay would like to share with you two stories: the story of a novice monk who paid a visit to a Zen master, and the story of a Bhikkhu who came with a question to the Eminent Master Tue Trung.

1

In the first story, the Zen master asked the novice monk:
“Tell me about your understanding of the Heart sutra.”

The novice monk joined his palms and replied:
“I have understood that the five skandhas are empty. There are no eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body or mind; there are no forms, sounds, smells, tastes, feelings, or objects of mind; the six consciousnesses do not exist, the eighteen realms of phenomena do not exist, the twelve links of dependent arising do not exist, and even wisdom and attainment do not exist.”
“Do you believe what it says?”
“Yes, I truly believe what it says.”

“Come closer to me,” the Zen master instructed the novice monk. When the novice monk drew near, the Zen master immediately used his thumb and index finger to pinch and twist the novice’s nose.
In great agony, the novice cried out “Teacher! You’re hurting me!” The Zen master looked at the novice. “Just now you said that the nose doesn’t exist. But if the nose doesn’t exist then what’s hurting?”



More at the link....

https://plumvillage.org/news/thich-nhat-hanh-new-heart-sutra-translation/ (https://plumvillage.org/news/thich-nhat-hanh-new-heart-sutra-translation/)


_/|\_
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: Dairy Lama on July 30, 2017, 02:36:18 am
It means that these things do not have independent existence, so all is conditional.


Definitely not. This idea is merely intellectual rather than an insight from meditation. In meditation, the eye is seen to arise, function & cease; arise, function & cease. It is seen as impermanent. But it is not seen as "no eye". Please refer to MN 148.

 
It is the same conditionality expressed in teachings like anatta, anicca, dependent origination, the Four Noble Truths, etc.


No. It is not. Anatta teaches the eye is not-self. Anicca teaches the eye is impermanent. Dependent origination teaches when the eye is polluted by ignorance, what is seen via the eye will result in suffering. The four noble truths teach craving & attachment towards the eye will cause the arising of suffering. None of these teachings say there is "no eye". That is why the Pali suttas include the eye as one of the elements (refer to MN 115).

What you posted Spiny is superstition. It does not exist. It is not true. It is false. :namaste:


Oh, come off it, Element, this is sheer nonsense.  Conditionality is the central theme in Buddhadharma, and it is also the central theme in the suttas. 

Here from the suttas is the general principle of conditionality in dependent origination:

"When this is, that is.
From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
When this isn't, that isn't.
From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.03.than.html (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.03.than.html)

Here is a practical application of conditionality from the suttas:

"Dependent on the ear & sounds there arises ear-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact... Dependent on the nose & aromas there arises nose-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact... Dependent on the tongue & flavors there arises tongue-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact... Dependent on the body & tactile sensations there arises body-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact... Dependent on the intellect & mental qualities there arises intellect-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.044.than.html (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.044.than.html)

And finally an extract from the Phena Sutta, which looks remarkably similar to the Heart Sutra:

"Form is like a glob of foam;
feeling, a bubble;
perception, a mirage;
fabrications, a banana tree;
consciousness, a magic trick —
   this has been taught
   by the Kinsman of the Sun.
However you observe them,
appropriately examine them,
they're empty, void
   to whoever sees them
   appropriately."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.095.than.html (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.095.than.html)


And of course conditionality ( aka emptiness ) is something that can be observed directly in practice, for example in the context of satipatthana - you would know this if you had done any serious practice.  Instead your main practice seems to be proselytising your particular brand of Thai Forest dogma, and relentlessly patronising other Buddhists. 
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: Ron-the-Elder on August 02, 2017, 04:32:15 am
Uposatha Days:

My wife and I, and some members of our meditation group observe celebrations of various Buddhist memorable / memorial days, or days of celebration, which are called Uposatha Days:

Following is a list of such days which specific dates vary yearly depending upon the appearance of full moons during the lunar month:

Quote
Magha Puja (usually in February)
This day, sometimes called "Sangha Day," commemorates the spontaneous assembly of 1,250 arahants in the Buddha's presence. One thousand of the gathered monks had previously achieved Awakening upon hearing the Buddha's delivery of the Fire Sermon; the remaining 250 were followers of the elder monks Ven. Moggallana and Ven. Sariputta. To mark this auspicious gathering, the Buddha delivered the "Ovada-Patimokkha Gatha" (see "A Chanting Guide"), a summary of the main points of the Dhamma, which the Buddha gave to the assembly before sending them out to proclaim the doctrine. [Suggested reading: "Dhamma for Everyone" by Ajaan Lee.]
Visakha Puja (Vesak) (usually in May)
This day, sometimes called "Buddha Day," commemorates three key events in the Buddha's life that took place on this full-moon day: his birth, Awakening, and final Unbinding (parinibbana). [Suggested reading: "Visakha Puja" by Ajaan Lee.]
Asalha Puja (usually in July)
This day, sometimes called "Dhamma Day," commemorates the Buddha's first discourse, which he gave to the group of five monks with whom he had practiced in the forest for many years. Upon hearing this discourse, one of the monks ( Ven. Kondañña) gained his first glimpse of Nibbana, thus giving birth to the Noble Sangha. The annual Rains retreat (vassa) begins the following day.
Pavarana Day (usually in October).
This day marks the end of the Rains retreat (vassa). In the following month, the kathina ceremony is held, during which the laity gather to make formal offerings of robe cloth and other requisites to the Sangha.
Anapanasati Day (usually in November).
At the end of one rains retreat (vassa), the Buddha was so pleased with the progress of the assembled monks that he encouraged them to extend their retreat for yet another month. On the full-moon day marking the end of that fourth month of retreat, he presented his instructions on mindfulness of breathing (anapanasati), which may be found in the Anapanasati Sutta (MN 118) — The Discourse on Mindfulness of Breathing.
See also:

Muluposatha Sutta (AN 3.70) — Discourse on the Roots of the Uposatha
Uposatha Sutta (AN 8.41) — Discourse on the Uposatha Observance
Visakhuposatha Sutta (AN 8.43) — Discourse to Visakha on the Uposatha
Sakka Sutta (AN 10.46) — To the Sakyans (on the Uposatha)
Ñanavara Thera's Questions-and-answers concerning the Uposatha.
Lay Buddhist Practice, by Bhikkhu Khantipalo (BPS Wheel Publication No. 206)


You may read about these, or do some additional research here:  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sila/uposatha.html (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sila/uposatha.html)

As far as practice is concerned, the main currency for my own personal practice is a reexamination of my practice.  Was it beneficial, or has it lead to additional suffering.  There is also a reexamination of refuge in The Buddha, The Dhamma and The Sangha.

Also, it is during this time period that I am reminded of any need for support of our teachers, researchers and scholars in their work to translate and dessiminate The Dhamma to those, who are in need.

Another personal aspect of such days is to remember friends, who have died, or whose families are in need of support.  This is what I will be doing this week as I was just given news that a childhood friend died in an accident, while exiting a hospital where he was going for periodic health examinations.
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on August 02, 2017, 02:10:38 pm

Here from the suttas is the general principle of conditionality in dependent origination:

"When this is, that is.
From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
When this isn't, that isn't.
From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that."
[url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.03.than.html[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.03.than.html[/url])

Unrelated to the discussion. You seem to be copy & pasting from a blind faith that the words you misconstrue are somehow related to your personal imaginings.

Quote
And finally an extract from the Phena Sutta, which looks remarkably similar to the Heart Sutra:

"Form is like a glob of foam;
feeling, a bubble;
perception, a mirage;
fabrications, a banana tree;
consciousness, a magic trick —
   this has been taught
   by the Kinsman of the Sun.
However you observe them,
appropriately examine them,
they're empty, void
   to whoever sees them
   appropriately."
[url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.095.than.html[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.095.than.html[/url])

The Phena Sutta does not deny form, feeling, perceptions, thoughts & consciousness. The Phena Sutta merely comments upon their transient, intangible & unsatisfactory nature. 

Even though you do not even know what the word 'sunnata' ('emptiness') means, the Phena Sutta does not even use the word 'sunnata' ('empty'; 'void'). Click on this link: https://suttacentral.net/pi/sn22.95 (https://suttacentral.net/pi/sn22.95) & search for the word 'sunn'. The result will be empty or absent of 'sunna' or 'sunno' or 'sunnata'.

You are clinging to a mistranslation & erroneously clinging to that mistranslation as equating with the equally faulty & dodgy Chinese Mahayana Heart Sutra.

The relevant Pali words in the Phena Sutta are 'rittaka', 'tucchaka' & 'asāra', which mean 'insubstantial', 'fruitless', 'vain', 'worthless', etc. This words do not have the superstitious meaning of the Chinese Mahayana Heart Sutra.

These Pali words appear to be statements about certain characteristics of the five aggregates rather than your materialist, nihilistic & 'animalistic' ideas about things 'existing' or 'not existing'; which is included in the definition of 'animalistic speech', as follows:
Quote
If, while he is dwelling by means of this dwelling, his mind inclines to speaking, he resolves that 'I will not engage in talk that is base, vulgar, common, ignoble, unbeneficial, that does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calm, direct knowledge, self-awakening, or Unbinding — i.e., talk about kings, robbers, & ministers of state; armies, alarms, & battles; food & drink; clothing, furniture, garlands, & scents; relatives; vehicles; villages, towns, cities, the countryside; women & heroes; the gossip of the street & the well; tales of the dead; tales of diversity, the creation of the world & of the sea; talk of whether things exist or not.' In this way he is alert there.

[url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.122.than.html[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.122.than.html[/url])


Quote
And of course conditionality ( aka emptiness )

Conditionality is not emptiness. For example, Nibbana is emptiness but not conditionality. Please think intelligently about what you post rather than engage in superstitious brainwashed group think. You are just parroting common ideas held by worldlings.

Quote
is something that can be observed directly in practice, for example in the context of satipatthana - you would know this if you had done any serious practice.  Instead your main practice seems to be proselytising your particular brand of Thai Forest dogma, and relentlessly patronising other Buddhists.

Please refrain from the practise of telling lies to give a false impression you are enlightened. Please uphold the 4th precept. You believe in all kinds of unknowable superstitions, such as reincarnation rebirth. You misconstrue the most basic teachings, as shown in this topic. Your views about "a being" are the same as those of Mara in SN 5.10. Mara, like you, believes the aggregates are "a being". Where as those with Right View know "a being" is merely a view or idea generated by the mind.

 :teehee:  :listen:
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: ground on August 02, 2017, 08:46:10 pm

Here from the suttas is the general principle of conditionality in dependent origination:

"When this is, that is.
From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
When this isn't, that isn't.
From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that."
[url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.03.than.html[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.03.than.html[/url])

Unrelated to the discussion. You seem to be copy & pasting from a blind faith that the words you misconstrue are somehow related to your personal imaginings.

Quote
And finally an extract from the Phena Sutta, which looks remarkably similar to the Heart Sutra:

"Form is like a glob of foam;
feeling, a bubble;
perception, a mirage;
fabrications, a banana tree;
consciousness, a magic trick —
   this has been taught
   by the Kinsman of the Sun.
However you observe them,
appropriately examine them,
they're empty, void
   to whoever sees them
   appropriately."
[url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.095.than.html[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.095.than.html[/url])

The Phena Sutta does not deny form, feeling, perceptions, thoughts & consciousness. The Phena Sutta merely comments upon their transient, intangible & unsatisfactory nature.


VisuddhiRaptor, you are persistently confusing emptiness with non-existence. However what emptiness denies is true existence, i.e. existence from the objects side, i.e. existence how existence appears innately. Emptiness does neither negate nominal or conventional existence nor the functioning of empty things. Emptiness does not negate causality.
This of course cannnot be understood by a mind that has not perceived emptiness directly since the words applied cause conflicting concepts in such an ordinary mind. Therefore such a mind has to meet an instruction that complies with its specific conditioning and leads it to the direct experience of what is called 'emptiness of true existence'.

Quote
So long as the two understandings - of appearance, 
Which is undeceiving dependent origination, 
And emptiness devoid of all theses - remain separate,
So long you have not realized the intent of the Sage.

However at some point when, without alternation but at once,
The instant you see that dependent origination is undeceiving,
If the entire object of grasping at certitude is dismantled,
At that point your analysis of the view has culminated.

Furthermore when appearance dispels the extreme of existence,
And when emptiness dispels the extreme of non-existence,
And if you understand how emptiness arises as cause and effect,
You will never be captivated by views grasping at extremes.

The Three Principal Aspects Of The Path ([url]http://www.tibetanclassics.org/html-assets/Three%20Principal%20Aspects.pdf[/url])

Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: Dairy Lama on August 03, 2017, 01:29:53 am
You seem to be copy & pasting from a blind faith that the words you misconstrue are somehow related to your personal imaginings.

This is pure projection on your part since you are merely parrotting ideas you have grasped from the likes of Buddhadasa.  All you do is proselytize and patronise, all you do is automatically reject any Buddhist teaching which doesn't match your narrow Buddhadasa dogma.

These Pali words appear to be statements about certain characteristics of the five aggregates rather than your materialist, nihilistic & 'animalistic' ideas about things 'existing' or 'not existing'; which is included in the definition of 'animalistic speech', as follows:
talk of whether things exist or not.'

Again this is pure projection on your part, since you are the one who is concerned with the "existence" of the aggregates.  It is clear from the suttas that the aggregates only arise in dependence on conditions, which means they are empty of inherent existence, they lack independent existence and so are empty.  You clearly have no understanding of conditionality in the suttas, or emptiness in the Mahayana, or of the equivalence between them.

Please refrain from the practise of telling lies to give a false impression you are enlightened. Please uphold the 4th precept. You believe in all kinds of unknowable superstitions, such as reincarnation rebirth.

Again, pure projection on your part.   Please refrain from being so arrogant and patronising, and please refrain from these ad hom attacks.  I am not being dishonest, and I have not claimed that I an enlightened ( I notice you level these accusations against anyone who disagrees with you ).   Clearly you have a very fragile ego and you cannot cope with disagreement or challenge.  So your instinct is to lash out and attack any dissent to your gross sectarianism and your tiresome Buddhadasa dogma.  You are a sort of obnoxious Buddhist Borg.
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on August 03, 2017, 03:28:35 am
You cannot cope with disagreement or challenge

No. You are not challenging. Your posts are wrong. If they were correct, I would agree with them, such as one post somewhere I agreed with.

It is clear from the suttas that the aggregates only arise in dependence on conditions, which means they are empty of inherent existence, they lack independent existence and so are empty. 

No. The suttas do not say this. It is not clear. Your ideas have not relationship to the Pali suttas.  :dharma:
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: The Artis Magistra on August 05, 2017, 01:51:56 pm
VisuddhiRaptor, I think what really seems to bother people is the kind of style in which you respond to things. It gives the impression you are being extremely rude and arrogant and people get offended.

I read your story about how you became more interested in Buddhist thought but I think you are also hurting peoples feelings on the internet and these are real people too, some of them might be sick or have mental issues even. If you could behave more lovingly and kindly and less menacingly towards all the people, you can easily say the same stuff you enjoy writing about without pooping on them and being insulting, even if they are insulting to you.

As you must know, there is nothing much to gain by all the unpleasantness generated back and forth, and one can at the very least not contribute to it by simply responding with your excellent wisdom and understandings while moderating the tone and words which you can hopefully can tell would cause another some distress as a personal insult.

I don't know why you are the way you are, but I would like to know more about it and why you are seen doing this stuff, seeming so belligerent and hateful in the way you behave online.

My writing is usually disliked by certain people but my purpose in that style is to excite and generate interest and enthusiasm by the boisterousness or silliness but its not meant to sting or slice at people. Its also for the promotion of Open Buddhism and a broad and inclusive investigation of Buddhist history and thought, not a particular narrow school, since the majority of what has been called Buddhist has occurred after the death of Siddhartha Gautama and has all sorts of things and ideas as part of it.
Title: Re: Practices of Various Practitioners
Post by: Ron-the-Elder on August 06, 2017, 03:06:56 am
 :goodpost:   :focus:

Artifacts


Over the years I have collected various Buddhist artifacts and copies / reproductions of Buddhist Artifacts.

Some of the most famous of Buddhist artifacts are Sand Mandalas, which seem to be particular to The Tibetan practice.  The idea is to create something of beauty with the full realization that, because of its delicate, or fragile nature that the first disturbing event which come along, the Mandala will be destroyed.  Usually this is done by the monks, who created it in the first place.  I think of it as a statement that beauty does not guarantee permanence.

Here is a WIKI which goes into much more detail regarding this topic:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_mandala

Relics are also another form of Buddhist artifact, which are collected in memory, and to honor certain Buddhist practitioners from antiquity, including The Buddha himself.

Here is another WIKI, which discusses this topic:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9Aar%C4%ABra

Paintings, particularly ancient paintings and their reproductions and prints are something that I personally collect.  One of my sons-in-law is a artist turned para-legal, and he has provided me with a collection of reproductions of Buddha, which I display in my office-sitting room.

Also in this very same room I have various statues of Buddhas from different locations around the world.  My favorite is a bronze reproduction of a Zen Buddha from Japan.

(https://cdn3.bigcommerce.com/s-rrxhho/products/2735/images/2912/Japanese-Buddha-Statue-Bronze-Finish-19__36081.1441481411.1280.1280.jpg?c=2)

My reasons for this collection is not only the appreciation of the art work which went into their creation, but to honor the personages for which they were created.

Before sitting practice my custom is to face the buddha representation (statue or painting) to honor him along with the dhamma, which he has provided to the world.

During uposatha (days of cellebration) a selected relic is often place into a more centralized location in our home and given the respect for the personage it represents. :dharma:

With this addition, since there seem to be no other Buddhist practitioners making contributions to this thread I will close the thread.

Please feel free to open another thread if you wish to make further contributions regarding this or other topics.
SimplePortal 2.3.3 © 2008-2010, SimplePortal