Author Topic: Self hate and letting go  (Read 1227 times)

Offline Albi

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Self hate and letting go
« on: April 11, 2015, 11:32:05 pm »
I heard a talk of Ajahn Brahm and he was saying that if you don't love yourself, if your parents treated you like shit with no love, you can't try and let go the self, first you need to feel good about yourself then and only then you can work on the no-self...I understand what he was saying but I feel discouraged nonetheless because it looks to me like you need to build something, suffering trough the process like putting stones one on top of each other, and then when you have reached your goal you have to kick it to ground...thinking about this process makes me tired and sad already...anybody has some insight about this problem? It would be really hepfull

Thanks
Albi

Offline Merwin

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Re: Self hate and letting go
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2015, 08:46:38 am »
Sounds a little strange to me honestly. What does the realisation of no-self have to do with how you were treated in your childhood? No-self is more of a disillusion than something that has to do with self-love, confidence, or whatever. Don't see how the two are related. Or if anything, realisation of no-self would help you to get rid of your self-image. As you realize every self-image you could have is the wrong image.

Offline Albi

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Re: Self hate and letting go
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2015, 01:30:23 pm »
« Last Edit: April 12, 2015, 01:33:57 pm by Albi »

Offline Dianet

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Re: Self hate and letting go
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2015, 05:11:45 pm »
This is an interesting topic and I'd like to look at your link but I can't get it to work.

Here's my 2 cents worth.

In one of the very few live personal conversations I've had with a Buddhist monastic the theme also came up that one should feel equal and deserving with all the other beings we're feeling compassionate towards.

From another angle--"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" only works if you feel you deserve to be treated well to begin with.

I don't think this is meant to be difficult process of  assembling a whole "self" out of scattered bits and parts and then disassembling it. Rather, of starting the path to enlightenment with a reasonable and healthy sense of "conventional" self-worth. If there are a lot of deep and tangled traumas, maybe they need some specialized attention in addition to Buddhist study?
 

Offline Albi

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Re: Self hate and letting go
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2015, 11:22:11 pm »
Yeah, lots of trauma so loads of pain! Already seeing a psychiatrist and it really gave me a all lot more of insight in my situation, now I'm way more counscious and mindfull, still I'm struggling because I don't feel like I belong to the human race, like it's me against the world. I' e experienced the sensation of belonging and being part of the world and I personally think it's The most beautiful sensation in the world, but it was just for a brief period of time, now I feel again separated. That I think maybe the key, to feel connected with everybody. How willi do that it's a mystery!

Offline cosmic_dog_magic

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Re: Self hate and letting go
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2015, 12:47:53 am »
@merwin This has to do with trauma, and how we carry the weight of past experience in the present (that it's all very present and left undealt with), that trauma solidifies the sense of self and suffering, the background story of me is like a brick that won't budge.  It's a feeling of heaviness and rigidity, fragile rigidness, a stubborness and stuckness, dullness and staleness.  When I say trauma I mean in the general sense of being haunted, severe or mundane, and we all carry that to different extents.  It's extremely difficult to get past severely traumatizing experiences, an enormous amount of learning about forgiveness and loving kindness is required.

@albi I don't believe it's about building oneself up, but the opposite rather, and that being one of opening up and letting that dismantle you.  Openness as in a swinging saloon door, just as freely as people can leave, people can come in, this applies just as much to emotions.  Using that analogy, usually that door is pretty resistant, pretty rusty, pretty un-oiled after years of neglect.  That door is our heart (this analogy is lame but I think it's still on point). 

Healing should be a priority, healing is tending to the heart, no longer neglecting it.  That "well cluck I am broken, and nothing I've tried so far has done me any good."  All our solutions, amount to escaping, moving, ignoring this throbbing painful thing that is at the center of our experience, and really has the final say on what we choose to do and what we choose not to do. 

If we look into our experience, into our bodies, it feels like the pain / anxiety is on the border of something, and that border is made of Resistance towards an emotional process that wants to Move.  That movement is either penetrating Inwards or irking Outwards.  A lot of the healing process in my experience, through meditative body work, is really that, opening up to that experience, that when I'm experiencing these strong emotional afflictions, if I feel out these resistant boundaries of the body and work with them, relax them, massage them with my awareness, so that the energy of the emotions travel and penetrate my experience, penetrate through my tissue, my organs, my heart - that that is real forgiveness, love.  Our bodies are very intelligent, and wish to take care of us, if we just let them and try not to control them in ever subtle ways.

I feel kind of gross how much I recommend the teachings and somatic practices offered by Dharma Ocean and Reggie Ray, but I also feel obligated for the immense insight and healing they've provided me.  Good luck with your journey ;)

Offline Albi

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Re: Self hate and letting go
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2015, 04:02:30 am »
@cosmic_dog_magic...thanks man!

Offline Dharmakara

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Re: Self hate and letting go
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2015, 06:07:51 pm »
Well, that was 54 minutes I'll never get back  :wacky:


Offline Damon

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Re: Self hate and letting go
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2015, 09:44:48 pm »
It is all about taking progressive steps. You have to get to a place where you accept yourself first, where you have value, as do others. Once you have let go of attaching to the anger or hatred, you can then move on to releasing the concept of identity,of not needing the idea of a particular self to compare or contrast at all. In other words you just are, without judgment, without need of judgment.

And yes, unfortunately for many us, we have to suffer first, to understand suffering, to ultimately let it go. I wish we could all just skip these steps as they are painful, but that is the essence of becoming enlightened and not being enlightened. If we were already enlightened, we wouldn't need the process. I believe that going through all of this does allow us to build compassion and empathy. How can you struggle with darkness not to feel for someone else who is, particularly when you begin to heal .

One of the most frustrating things for me as well in studying Buddhism was realizing this. There is a point I feel I will reach though, (no matter how long it takes) where I won't need to travel that path anymore. I will just be in that state naturally, without particular effort. I don't know how long that will take, but I have come through a lot; now that I am in a better place,  I can see that how much was really unnecessary to go through. Perception really is everything.

Offline Tirisilex

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Re: Self hate and letting go
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2015, 07:39:02 pm »
Sounds a little strange to me honestly. What does the realisation of no-self have to do with how you were treated in your childhood? No-self is more of a disillusion than something that has to do with self-love, confidence, or whatever. Don't see how the two are related. Or if anything, realisation of no-self would help you to get rid of your self-image. As you realize every self-image you could have is the wrong image.

In this case the realization of no-self is being obstructed by the abuse that was caused by the parents. That's the correlation between the 2.

Offline Galen

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Re: Self hate and letting go
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2015, 09:24:21 pm »
Hi Albi

I strongly disagree with the teaching of Ajahn Brahm, that you mentioned.

Everybody needs to deal with feeling Love , not just abuse survivors. I know from personal experience.

The problem is the misconception of Love as just something that we receive.
Buddhist teachings addresses Love as one of the "Four Limitless Ones"  Loving -kindness also known as Metta or Maitra.
( the others are compassion, Sympathetic Joy and Equanimity)

The teaching is that Love is more than something you just receive, it is something you do.
You act in a Loving way and you "feel" Love. We are not at the mercy of others to experience Love.

Though abuse makes it more difficult to develop self esteem, it does not mean that we do develop a sense of self. Everybody develops a self. 

Everybody also develops "Storylines", things that we begin to believe about ourselves based on our life experiences. They can be hurtful like "I'm not good looking" or vain like "I'm better than them".

Through  Meditation we learn about ourselves, learn about our storylines, get to see ourselves clearly.
This experience can be painful, but it is for all people, not just abuse survivors.

Pema Chodron mentioned a student that was taking a retreat with her. After a few days the student was discouraged and hurt by her initial experience. she said:

"All this meditation and insight, it gets me down, Where is the Joy?"

Pema said she was concerned hearing this, but then meet the student at the end of the retreat. The Student said:

" I get it now. The Joy comes from getting real"

You are not alone. You will get to know yourself, and you will discover your own "basic goodness" that Chogyam Trungpa Rinponche talks about. We all have basic goodness.

That doesn't mean that you will never feel sad or anxious again, you will. But being aware of your own basic goodness you will be able to take care of yourself. And you can learn practices to help you deal with upsetting emotions and thoughts. I have lots of practices to deal with emotions and thoughts.

And you do not have to "knock it all down" The concept of "No Self" has nothing to deal with getting rid of your "Self"

The concept of "No self"  does not mean there is no "you".

In this time period, in this existence , you are you. The concept of "No Self" means there is no fixed separate "self" that is disconnected from everything else in existence.

So it's not so much "selflessness" as "less-self-ness".

We should not get so caught up in our "self."

We are connected to everything, right now in this existence.

We don't get rid of self. When they say we need to "let go" of self what it really means is to "let go of holding on."

We notice when we are getting caught up in our desires and we allow ourselves to end the grasping, the" holding on."

 


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