Author Topic: The Essence of the Dhamma, virtue and Emptiness and other postmodern struggles  (Read 443 times)

Offline Samana Johann

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Seeing certain struggles going on here in serial topics, all very infected buy what is called "postmodernism" sadly addopted, spread and advertised but many later schools and also very popular in lay teacher circles, my person thought of giving a possibility that if one wishes he/she could maybe even fast get general view corrected, finding founded answers to topics like "The Essence of the Dhamma - (Has the Dhamma a meaning?) and "Virtue without Attachment - (Virtue and emptiness)" and many other "Ahh!" doupt-killers:

Beyond All Directions

It's not only very useful for people being aware of just beginning but also for "Elder" to actually really beginn.

Much joy and Anumodana!
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Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Offline Samana Johann

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- Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā-sambuddhassa -

Nyom (? VisuddhiRaptor),

Atma (my person) is not sure of what Nyom means with "Non-Attachment" put assumes that right release, in form of one of the stages of awaking is mean, so to speak a Noble person, no more able to fall into lower realm and destinated to final release.

It is not possible to gain right release aside of the Noble Eightfold path which incl. the factor of virtue. Right virtue, right spech, conduct, livelihood are the prerequisites for right mindfulness and right concentration.

It is possible to gain such as "non attachment" when we remember householder - equanimity, upekkha which is based on ignorance, having not transcendent form (see MN137 here and foot notes in this regard). Such training of being not released but possible bear as much faults is trained by certain sectarians using the "trademark" Dhamma of the Buddha for it.
Since such equanimity is always conditioned, it is subject to decay and not lasting but because it is possible to develope it is very dangerous because one is still subject to the effects of ones deeds based on wrong view.
When people have accumulated much merits then, like in the simile of the "The Salt Crystal people often feel untouchable, but effects of deeds come, sometimes later, even lifetimes later.

That is way the Buddha pointed out the fact that King Pasenadi realiced here:

Quote
"That's the way it is, great king! That's the way it is! Few are those people in the world who, when acquiring lavish wealth, don't become intoxicated & heedless, don't become greedy for sensual pleasures, and don't mistreat other beings. Many more are those who, when acquiring lavish wealth, become intoxicated & heedless, become greedy for sensual pleasures, and mistreat other beings."


What ever wealth comes to one, is a matter of merits, and in that way this should be understood also in regard of merits. Having a lot of merits gained does not ensure being free of falling into lower realms and does not ensure that one is destinated to release.

If we look at the Sutta Nyom had quoted, we see who is no more subject of falling downward.

As for the "Drinker" here, like the Buddha told at the end, he had fullfilled the training at the end of his life, meaning, he had developed the Noble Eightfold path at the moment of death. So starting with this point, he has become a Stream-winner.

Since it is a big discussion in many Dhamma-forums this days, in how far or if a stream-enterer could break precepts, my person takes that question here also as having somehow originated for one of them and Nyom might be actually a person having participated into the one and other, more or lesser touched by this or that view.

In regard of drinking. When we look at the Noble Eightfold Paths discription, we might discover that "only" for precepts are mentioned for the most time.

Quote
"And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong action as wrong action, and right action as right action. This is one's right view. And what is wrong action? Killing, taking what is not given, illicit sex. This is wrong action...  (see also other quotes in Right Action)


But since drinking makes heedless, and heedlessness is the cause of wrong doing, it is logical to include this kind of sensual pleasure, produced by means causing lack of (moral) shame.

In one having gained right view, let's say a person having gained the 1. path, or being faith or dhamma-follower, knowing or not, absence of shame does not mean absence of moral shame. So it might be possible for Noble person, not aware of it, that he/she takes indoxicants as a mean of sensual pleasure in a way that does not cause mindlessness and lose of moral shame. You might have observed people who, when getting a little indoxicated, lose fear of doing right (not like the person with wrong view, he/she loses fear of doing wrong).

If ones right mindfulness is very strong, certain levels of indoxication will not really penetrate ones mind, but one should be carefull since we easily overestimated our capability.

How ever, once gained fruit or being aware of ones situation one does no more cause indoxication since knowing that the self-esteem arising with it is an illusion. Commentaries, as having been informed, mentions that a Noble person is no more able to drink alcohol and a seemingly usuall form of testing a person is to put some alcohol into milk and look if he/she drinks it. But that is "just" what comes from the elder monks.

Once knowing, how ever, that taking indoxicants is not proper, a Noble person would have no reason to do not abstain from it.

In regard of directly wrong doing, a Noble person is incapable to perform heavy wrong deeds which require to be based on strong wrong view meaning on a strong self-believe, forgetting or rejecting cause and effect eternaly.

If faults are performed itks not only that fruits, effects of wrong doing arise very quick and one quickly becomes aware, but also one is not able, meaning having no reason to hide or reject wrong doings, and sure of the fact that causes give effects he/she has neither fear to bear the effects nor any believe that he/she could run away from the effects.

He/she is also free of the fetter of performing non conductive practice and following wrong moral conduct. So strong wrong doings in gaining a certain higher aim by "rites & rituals" is also no more possible. Meaning that such strong believe of doing wrong for a good, deliberated "mercy killing" or "lying out of compassion", all the "Robinhood-ethics", to bring some samples, or what ever "Bodhisattas" would do deliberated, would also no more accure. Having lost Self-identity views one will be also no more a "social hero" fighting for a certain group or taking side.

How ever, althought knowing certain thing for sure, yet being not totaly free of the fetter sensual desire and ill-will, which will entirely fall only at the stage of No-returner, he/she might act in "affect", like it is used in legal-therms, but quickly come to sense and bear the fruits and again such deeds will be no heavy offences.

So if you see somebody taking a chocolate in certain circumstances it does not indicate "this person is not a noble one" or if he/she violates precepts in certain stress situations or when he/she is not informed about certain behaviours, remembering a monk in a sutta, who had maintained the habit of addreasing monks like outcasts living as Brahman in earlier existences.

Being really honest to one self, one is able to prove if one is still able to perform heavy wrong deeds in ways of asking oneself and step near to the fire, even without the need of doing so bodily. Such a question: "Am I still able to kill? Am I still able to steal, ...speak what's not true, ...transgress in fleshy lust, deliberately?" Are very good to maybe get needed fear of oneself and become are of "still having the devil insight" and so, in that way, approaches the good disciples of the Buddha and his Dhamma, seeking them as refuge and guardiances till one gain liberation from not-knowings effects.

My person hopes that his bad english and the more broader explaining is not a hindrance to take take this tiny gift of Dhamma by heard and let it penetrate it effectively.

So once again an in regard of the question, which is actually surely better explained be most Ven. Thanissaro in his essay, linked in the OP: No, it is impossible that right release has non-virtue, wrong virtue factors, as its prerequisite. It's impossible that right release arises with non-virtue, and it's imposible that right releases does not cause lasting virtue as result. Why is this? Because right release has right view and right resolve as it's condition amoung with the other factors of the path and what ever rest of boundage is left after gaining right view, is subject of lasting decay, once the wheel of Dhamma is set forth. A person having gained right release, being of no integrity: Such is not possible.

If Nyom (good to use ones given name, having gained right view or faithful trains to lose doubt of "being owner of ones action", such is much more conductive and protects much more, just as practical advice here) has any doubt or question, feel free to ask further. If Nyom sees anything that looks like not right or maybe bad expressed, my person is always greatful to get also rebuked, corrected and critisiced and always invites to that.

Just the time of lunch of the mosquitoes here, my person will not prove read the text, so many grammer and spelling mistakes you might have beared till come to read this here. Sadhu! For that sacrify.)

May all beings have a share of the merits done here and may the Devas inform those not having heard yet so that those able to rejoice may have all shares of the bliss of skillful deeds.

Anumodana!
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Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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As for the "Drinker" here, like the Buddha told at the end, he had fullfilled the training at the end of his life, meaning, he had developed the Noble Eightfold path at the moment of death. So starting with this point, he has become a Stream-winner.

Thank you for the above answer, Samana.  :namaste:

As for the rest of the post, it was unnecessary.  :lipsseald:

Offline Samana Johann

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Do not say so, better think so, Nyom. And there is no cause at least for shame to invoke the merits of speaking and listening, discussing the Dhamma.

A possible "fault" of having maybe not read or listen attentive things and then disputed unskilful is of course good if being confessed - Sadhu for doing so her! - yet from my person no need to forgive (since having been not involved as far as seen) but maybe Nyom might like to confess such on other places (where it could have been subject for wrong doing).

Sotāpanna, insight winner by hearing Dhamma requires questions. One approaching and asking at proper time is called a "person with nissaya (foundation, ground, a "lucky/blessed one")" and it very usuall to repeat answers and questions in communities intended to right view to help "cleaning" ways of thinking and view.
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Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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A possible "fault"

One sentence was a sufficient answer. The rest of the post used very poor language, showed a lack of concentration, a lack of consideration for the questioner & used words that were not understandable. The Lord Buddha taught others according to their disposition & spoke with clear language. 

 :buddha:

Offline IdleChater

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Venerable Samana

I'm not so sure that salutation is correct.  Hanze may be wandering ascetic in Cambodia, but that doen't mean he's, properly, a monk - and by that I mean "ordained".  If not, he's not entitled to the honorific, "Venerable"

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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I'm not so sure that salutation is correct.  Hanze may be wandering ascetic in Cambodia, but that doesn't mean he's, properly, a monk - and by that I mean "ordained".  If not, he's not entitled to the honorific, "Venerable"

The impression of a 'fake' monk seems so because ordained monks are particularly trained to established appropriate boundaries between themselves & laypeople. Metta, detachment & not imposing heavy burdens towards laypeople is the sign of proper monk's (bhikkhu) training.

:om:




Offline IdleChater

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I'm not so sure that salutation is correct.  Hanze may be wandering ascetic in Cambodia, but that doesn't mean he's, properly, a monk - and by that I mean "ordained".  If not, he's not entitled to the honorific, "Venerable"

The impression of a 'fake' monk seems so because ordained monks are particularly trained to established appropriate boundaries between themselves & laypeople. Metta, detachment & not imposing heavy burdens towards laypeople is the sign of proper monk's (bhikkhu) training.

:om:

I'm not saying he's a fake monk.  I don't recall him saying he was ordained.  His handle and some of his posts indicate he's living the life of a mendicant, but not as a monk.    If he's not ordained we shouldn't greet him as "Venerable".

Offline Samana Johann

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No problem and you may always think as you are fit. You may no more disturbed with thing you dislike by my person in encouragement of what should be done and what should be avoided to gain liberation.

May you find the way to the unbound for you self with ease without any burden and remember and see the right path always for you self.
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