Author Topic: The First Noble Truth: Life has inevitable suffering. Why?  (Read 867 times)

Offline Solodris

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Re: The First Noble Truth: Life has inevitable suffering. Why?
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2017, 09:22:21 am »
Quote
"Monks, there are these three kinds of suffering. What three? Suffering caused by pain, suffering caused by the formations (or conditioned existence), suffering due to change. It is for the full comprehension, clear understanding, ending and abandonment of these three forms of suffering that the Noble Eightfold Path is to be cultivated..."

Anyone has links to suttas that elaborate on this one?

The above sutta is a mistranslation.

Really?  On you do you base that assessment on?  I know you aren't a recognized translator of Pali, so, whose judgement are you relying on?

I was thinking the same thing, formation seems to refer to the aggregate of mental fabrication as in conditioned existence beyond physical pain in the aggregate of form.

Offline IdleChater

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Re: The First Noble Truth: Life has inevitable suffering. Why?
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2017, 11:24:37 am »
I was thinking the same thing, formation seems to refer to the aggregate of mental fabrication as in conditioned existence beyond physical pain in the aggregate of form.

Sorry, but that's not what I was thinking about at all.

I'll explain.

The sutra quote  That Rahul used was by a well known and respected Pali translator.  Now that's not to say that the translation is "correct", but there are a couple things to consider.

1. The editors of ATI would probably not include a questionable translation from anyone.  So, it's likely, from that POV, that the translation is at least "acceptable".

2.  To declare a sutra to be "mistranslated"  requires a high degree of intimacy with both the source language (Pali in this case),  and with the source material in question.  You could substitute a Pali expert if needed.  Then, to uphold scholastic standards you'd have to have a number of other experts who agree on mistranslation  (this is why translations are often undertaken by committees).

So it's quite right to challenge VR's assertion, seeing as he has no credentials to comment based on his own experience, knowledge and training, nor does he provide supporting scholasticism.

What I question has nothing to do with what the translation actually says.

Offline ground

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Re: The First Noble Truth: Life has inevitable suffering. Why?
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2017, 01:03:10 pm »
...
2.  To declare a sutra to be "mistranslated"  requires a high degree of intimacy with both the source language (Pali in this case),  and with the source material in question.  You could substitute a Pali expert if needed.  Then, to uphold scholastic standards you'd have to have a number of other experts who agree on mistranslation  (this is why translations are often undertaken by committees)....
To argue this way actually is an instance of believing in the inherent existence of the meaning arising depending on seeing empty linguistic signs.  :fu:

Offline Solodris

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Re: The First Noble Truth: Life has inevitable suffering. Why?
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2017, 01:19:20 pm »
I was thinking the same thing, formation seems to refer to the aggregate of mental fabrication as in conditioned existence beyond physical pain in the aggregate of form.

Sorry, but that's not what I was thinking about at all.

I'll explain.

The sutra quote  That Rahul used was by a well known and respected Pali translator.  Now that's not to say that the translation is "correct", but there are a couple things to consider.

1. The editors of ATI would probably not include a questionable translation from anyone.  So, it's likely, from that POV, that the translation is at least "acceptable".

2.  To declare a sutra to be "mistranslated"  requires a high degree of intimacy with both the source language (Pali in this case),  and with the source material in question.  You could substitute a Pali expert if needed.  Then, to uphold scholastic standards you'd have to have a number of other experts who agree on mistranslation  (this is why translations are often undertaken by committees).

So it's quite right to challenge VR's assertion, seeing as he has no credentials to comment based on his own experience, knowledge and training, nor does he provide supporting scholasticism.

What I question has nothing to do with what the translation actually says.

I think I misquoted or something, sorry about that, I meant that a useful interpretation would be more pragmatic than a translation that is difficult to make sense of.

Offline IdleChater

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Re: The First Noble Truth: Life has inevitable suffering. Why?
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2017, 02:41:36 pm »
I was thinking the same thing, formation seems to refer to the aggregate of mental fabrication as in conditioned existence beyond physical pain in the aggregate of form.

Sorry, but that's not what I was thinking about at all.

I'll explain.

The sutra quote  That Rahul used was by a well known and respected Pali translator.  Now that's not to say that the translation is "correct", but there are a couple things to consider.

1. The editors of ATI would probably not include a questionable translation from anyone.  So, it's likely, from that POV, that the translation is at least "acceptable".

2.  To declare a sutra to be "mistranslated"  requires a high degree of intimacy with both the source language (Pali in this case),  and with the source material in question.  You could substitute a Pali expert if needed.  Then, to uphold scholastic standards you'd have to have a number of other experts who agree on mistranslation  (this is why translations are often undertaken by committees).

So it's quite right to challenge VR's assertion, seeing as he has no credentials to comment based on his own experience, knowledge and training, nor does he provide supporting scholasticism.

What I question has nothing to do with what the translation actually says.

I think I misquoted or something, sorry about that, I meant that a useful interpretation would be more pragmatic than a translation that is difficult to make sense of.

I agree, but the interpretaion should be based on a sound translation.  as you suggest, sometimes a translation is difficult to understand.  An sound interpretation is where the teacher comes in.  As relative newcomers,  our depth of understanding is such that it's sometimes impossible to get it right without a teacher to guide us.

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: The First Noble Truth: Life has inevitable suffering. Why?
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2017, 05:26:41 pm »
Really?  On you do you base that assessment on?  I know you aren't a recognized translator of Pali, so, whose judgement are you relying on?

Based on the references I made to other suttas refuting the translation.  :fu:

Offline VincentRJ

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Re: The First Noble Truth: Life has inevitable suffering. Why?
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2017, 05:45:04 pm »
The analogy using two darts, from Visuddhi's link, makes sense to me. Pain and discomfort has to be recognized for what it is, merely a signal that something is wrong and needs attending to.

The origins of the word 'Dukkha', as I understand, is an Aryan term for an axle hole which is not in the centre, and leads to a bumpy and uncomfortable ride.

The problem with pain and discomfort is the frequent exaggeration of it, psychologically. It's the unnecessary exaggeration which Buddhism is addressing. For example, when some people feel a pain in the body and make an appointment to see the doctor, they might start worrying about all the possible diagnoses and consequences. 'Have I got cancer? Will I have to go to hospital for an operation? Should I visit a lawyer and make my will? Will the pain get worse? Will I be able to do the housework? Will I be able to drive the car? And so on.'

These are the additional darts, which in total, represent far more suffering than the initial signal of pain or discomfort.

https://suttacentral.net/en/sn36.6

"Bhikkhus, when the uninstructed worldling is being contacted by a painful feeling, he sorrows, grieves, and laments; he weeps beating his breast and becomes distraught. He feels two feelings—a bodily one and a mental one. Suppose they were to strike a man with a dart, and then they would strike him immediately afterwards with a second dart, so that the man would feel a feeling caused by two darts. So too, when the uninstructed worldling is being contacted by a painful feeling … he feels two feelings—a bodily one and a mental one."

Offline IdleChater

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Re: The First Noble Truth: Life has inevitable suffering. Why?
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2017, 05:54:00 pm »
Really?  On you do you base that assessment on?  I know you aren't a recognized translator of Pali, so, whose judgement are you relying on?

Based on the references I made to other suttas refuting the translation.  :fu:
So, put another way, simply a matter of personal preference rather than any knowledge or skill in translation.

IOW, you really don't know, fur sure, if the quoted material was mistranslated or not.

Lovely.  Not in the least bit surprising.

Offline Rahul

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Re: The First Noble Truth: Life has inevitable suffering. Why?
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2017, 10:32:30 pm »
Does it really matter to argue on the translation?

More important than this argument, are the two suttas that VR provided links to. In one of the suttas (https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.001.than.html) is a great food for thought. That your mental state can be independent of your physical state. That you could train your mind to be unaffected by your physical state.

Considering a feeling as a pain is a mental karma, and this karma makes the feeling even painful. If we stop considering feelings as painful or pleasant, there won't be suffering!!!

Offline ground

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Re: The First Noble Truth: Life has inevitable suffering. Why?
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2017, 01:52:49 am »
Does it really matter to argue on the translation?

Is it even possible to argue about emptiness?  To argue about the meaning of meaninglessness? :fu:

Offline Solodris

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Re: The First Noble Truth: Life has inevitable suffering. Why?
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2017, 02:03:57 am »
Does it really matter to argue on the translation?

Is it even possible to argue about emptiness?  To argue about the meaning of meaninglessness? :fu:

What is perception but a window of form? What is meaninglessness but the dark hopelessness that is blue to norm? Since when did a feeling have a color?

Offline Rahul

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Re: The First Noble Truth: Life has inevitable suffering. Why?
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2017, 02:09:12 am »
On the other hand, I have also found that mental state is superior to the physical state. And it is possible to override your physical state by your mental state. I have found it to be possible to overcome the bodily fatigue at the end of a long working day by training your mind to believe that you have a lot of energy left. To some extent it works. And I am sure that if one practices, one can attain even greater results. From my own experience, I think it is possible to achieve what Buddha mentioned in some sutta that a trained Bhikkhu is able to bear excruciating pain without being affected by it at all. In fact, there have been recorded examples of such incidents in the history. Thich Quang Duc of Vietnam, if anyone heard about him.

All this eventually give some proof that physical pain/discomfort is a suffering because we consider it to be a suffering. And extending this logic further, I would even say that all kind of suffering actually becomes suffering because we recognize it as suffering.

Offline Solodris

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Re: The First Noble Truth: Life has inevitable suffering. Why?
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2017, 03:00:43 am »
Slaves of ancient egypt were working hard for their meals, one could only assume there was a genetic imprint behind living enough just to get a meal. The psychological conditioning of "A good slave can pull this rope for 4 hours before getting his next meal." overrided everything because they simply had no choice. This is a part of human behavior that doesn't exist anymore, if we could tap into the same psychological conditioning, there would be an antidote toward exhaustion. The recognition that to be at peace with what simply is, is more than enough, how could there be a choice when this is it.

Framework constriction binds realities and unfolds opportunities.

Offline ground

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Re: The First Noble Truth: Life has inevitable suffering. Why?
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2017, 03:34:24 am »
Does it really matter to argue on the translation?

Is it even possible to argue about emptiness?  To argue about the meaning of meaninglessness? :fu:

What is perception but a window of form? What is meaninglessness but the dark hopelessness that is blue to norm? Since when did a feeling have a color?

Since you have an issue with depression it is important to know that I am not using the expression 'meaninglessness' with an emotional connotation here. It is of utmost importance that 'meaninglessness' in the context of emptiness is just a different aspect of emptiness and is purified from any potential emotional stains.

Offline Solodris

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Re: The First Noble Truth: Life has inevitable suffering. Why?
« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2017, 04:08:53 am »
Does it really matter to argue on the translation?

Is it even possible to argue about emptiness?  To argue about the meaning of meaninglessness? :fu:

What is perception but a window of form? What is meaninglessness but the dark hopelessness that is blue to norm? Since when did a feeling have a color?

Since you have an issue with depression it is important to know that I am not using the expression 'meaninglessness' with an emotional connotation here. It is of utmost importance that 'meaninglessness' in the context of emptiness is just a different aspect of emptiness and is purified from any potential emotional stains.

When a cup is no longer considered to be either full, half full nor empty, do we discover true emptiness.

 


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