Author Topic: The First Noble Truth: Life has inevitable suffering. Why?  (Read 868 times)

Offline Solodris

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Re: The First Noble Truth: Life has inevitable suffering. Why?
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2017, 05:19:26 am »
I think what is implied here though, is that if stressfulness exceeds what is logically reasonable, it should be abandoned by realizing skillful cause and effect, and therefore without reproduction, no birth, no rebirth, no becoming and hence no stressfulness.

Offline IdleChater

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Re: The First Noble Truth: Life has inevitable suffering. Why?
« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2017, 11:11:10 am »
I think what is implied here though, is that if stressfulness exceeds what is logically reasonable, it should be abandoned by realizing skillful cause and effect, and therefore without reproduction, no birth, no rebirth, no becoming and hence no stressfulness.

I got a teaching on the 4NT where it was explained that the word "suffering" is the Pali(?) word "dukkha".  THis word is used to describe a wagon ride where one of the wheels is "out of true" - not centered, balanced, straight - that sort of thing.

In this way we see that  suffering isn't always like passing a kidney stone.  It can be subtle, barely noticable.  The sense that something isn't quite right.  It's not "true".

Think of when you drive a car where one or more wheels are out of balance or alignment.  It will be ok, going to the store, but drive all day and your arms will be numb.  Dukkha.

Offline ground

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Re: The First Noble Truth: Life has inevitable suffering. Why?
« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2017, 10:52:08 pm »
Does it really matter to argue on the translation?

Is it even possible to argue about emptiness?  To argue about the meaning of meaninglessness? :fu:

What is perception but a window of form? What is meaninglessness but the dark hopelessness that is blue to norm? Since when did a feeling have a color?

Since you have an issue with depression it is important to know that I am not using the expression 'meaninglessness' with an emotional connotation here. It is of utmost importance that 'meaninglessness' in the context of emptiness is just a different aspect of emptiness and is purified from any potential emotional stains.

When a cup is no longer considered to be either full, half full nor empty, do we discover true emptiness.

As long as there is the sentiment of 'true' and 'discover' there is misperception.
 
No truth can be found since nothing exists inherently and nothing can be discovered since all is spontaneously present.

Life as such is not inherently different from the great ease which is boundless utter meaninglessness.

 :fu:


Quote
The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.023.than.html
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 10:57:58 pm by ground »

Offline Rahul

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Re: The First Noble Truth: Life has inevitable suffering. Why?
« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2017, 04:44:07 am »
And that's why it is truly said that this life, this world, this universe, ... 'all' is just an experience. An experience and that's it. Interpretation of the stimuli. If we realize this fact, we wouldn't value any material thing. Simply because there is no material, it's all just an experience.

Offline ground

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Re: The First Noble Truth: Life has inevitable suffering. Why?
« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2017, 02:18:59 am »
... 'all' is just an experience. An experience and that's it. Interpretation of the stimuli. If we realize this fact, we wouldn't value any material thing. Simply because there is no material, it's all just an experience.
Quote
... intellect & ideas ... Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."

 :fu:


« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 02:25:06 am by ground »

Offline Solodris

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Re: The First Noble Truth: Life has inevitable suffering. Why?
« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2017, 06:40:51 am »
It's the Simsapa leaves all over again, if it doesn't lead to unbinding and release, it's irrelevant or fundamentalism.

Offline ground

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Re: The First Noble Truth: Life has inevitable suffering. Why?
« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2017, 11:55:06 pm »
It's the Simsapa leaves all over again, if it doesn't lead to unbinding and release, it's irrelevant or fundamentalism.

It's completely irrelevant and useless.

Nothing leads to anywhere.

No becoming, no change, no causality.

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas."

 :fu:

Offline ground

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Re: The First Noble Truth: Life has inevitable suffering. Why?
« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2017, 11:42:40 pm »
The great ease does neither come nor go and is spontaneously present.

Dissolve yourself in the interval between acceptance and rejection, between affirmation and negation.

Effort corrupts. Deliberate action misleads.


 :fu:

Offline Anemephistus

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Re: The First Noble Truth: Life has inevitable suffering. Why?
« Reply #38 on: December 12, 2017, 10:07:55 am »
It's the Simsapa leaves all over again, if it doesn't lead to unbinding and release, it's irrelevant or fundamentalism.

Is that your opinion or the summary of another's? Honestly just checking. I would love to think it is not extreme to live and enjoy things in a way that helps skillful qualities grow and diminishes pain and suffering. My opinion is that that it is not irrelevant to the world to learn to behave in such a way.

Either way, I have heard though cannot find the source of my recollection, that Emptyness/void nature can have an element of Nihilism which can create sadness and depression in people who are swayed a certain way by it. By those who are swayed this  way, it is best avoided while the understanding produces this  effect. there is more than enough practice in implementing the eight fold path and the four noble truths to last a lifetime.

Personally, Suffering as a truth of life is apparent to me in several ways, all of which have been covered better and with more wisdom than I possess. However I would still share a couple of them that I know for sure.

The interdependent nature of our connection to all other beings through the many avenues which are the nature of that connection puts us in contact with suffering regardless of our state of mind and heart and body. A healthy, happy, good natured child will always lose his parents in his life if their best hopes for his health come true. Knowing this,  if we perceive it when we see him we are touched by that suffering, even if we do not, eventually he will be faced with it.
We come into the world and form attachment if everything goes right, later if we are lucky enough to encounter the wisdom to do so, we evaluate that attachment and see its true nature. We can fuel wonderful relationships with people recognizing that they and we will not be around forever despite the suffering inherent in that notion.

 Or we can try to break that attachment to them and lose our relationship with them in light of the notion that they and we are impermanent and a relationship will end in suffering. Both ways have suffering.

The first, is tempered by the lifetime of interaction we encounter and keep and share with others, even though the loss is hard. The second makes us alone and since attachment viewed in this  way expects that we can separate ourselves from others it is not in accordance with what I understand to be correct, but I have seen both things and the suffering that they make.

We have expectations, we expect a lot. At least I did. I watched TV when I was younger a lot. I saw people who were working basic jobs and had a great house and two cars and went out to eat. They talked and solved all their problems in half an hour and they were happy. Life did not work out that way when I tried it. The laugh track played at good insults on American sitcoms, where was it when I tried to survive the fights I found myself in when I was young. It was deep seeded expectation too, subtle and the source of a lot of suffering and confusion. .. All from hours of watching things I thought were funny and enjoying them. 

I mostly  quit buying clothes and things without looking up where and by whom they are made. I realized that I was helping to support work conditions that were horrible and forced child labor. The Nike shoes I wore many years ago, I didn't know that a kid my age had made them and if he worked 50 years at the pay he was getting he still would never be able to buy a pair. Of course he lost his job when it all came out and I don't know if people sent help, or if it just got worse.

Suffering is ubiquitous with interconnected experience, because it exists in so many ways, and we are not separated from all other things, we are not free from it even if we don't experience much of it directly. Creating a pattern of life which can bring about freedom from suffering is possible according to the Buddha, he gave the path to that cessation and sufficient teaching to follow the path  to it. I have not attained such a thing however and so I speak only as a matter faith on that point and as a matter of experience on the others I have mentioned.


Much Love to all of you!

« Last Edit: December 12, 2017, 10:52:13 pm by Anemephistus »

Offline ground

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Re: The First Noble Truth: Life has inevitable suffering. Why?
« Reply #39 on: December 13, 2017, 09:38:10 pm »
The chatterbox has been a troll from the outset.
Don't feed it.
Words are useless -
great bliss, great ease.

 :fu:

Offline Anemephistus

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Re: The First Noble Truth: Life has inevitable suffering. Why?
« Reply #40 on: December 14, 2017, 11:48:03 am »
I wanted to add one more thing. For what value it might have. "Self" indulgence and the indulgence of a concept of "us" and "them" has been another thing I have seen. The price of placing a "self" above others, there is a recognizable difference between people unless we are damaged in a way that prevents us from being able to tell, but that difference is not greater than what we have in common and it is not greater than all the ways in which we share life and it is not greater than the fact that we are humanity, not one of us, but all of us together, and humanity is part of life, not part of some life, but part of all life.

I once watched a man beat another man until the victim was hospitalized, all over one piece of cake. The victim, he had taken the piece of cake from the other man, the other man, he felt he could not afford the slight against his person because others would think he was weak. I have many examples of this type of behavior I have witnessed, but this one is easy to make less graphic and it is old so I can share it.

The most alarming and painful things I have seen, have come from the notion of self importance and emphasis on self. We can cover all day the truth of suffering, I keep my thoughts mostly depicted as the result of what I have seen not specifically what caused them to be realized. But I promise you, in a very non-conceptual way that the earth is rife with suffering and self and harm and pain. With all that is out there, who truly is separate from it? What we do with this understanding matters. It matters to every living thing. We either grow the understanding of all living things in a way which frees them within our sphere of influence, or we do not.  I feel like we should try and we should encourage others to try too.
   


Offline BlackLooter

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Re: The First Noble Truth: Life has inevitable suffering. Why?
« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2018, 11:39:23 pm »
Most suffering happens when you don't accept life for what it is..

Being on the level so to speak.. (and thats prophet btw)

You need to understand that suffering has its place.. its only when you dont accept this that there is greater suffering..
All the Girls and Spacemen will have a monkey on my back before I Attack, I do Shaolin, and Wing From Gui..the meaning of life is backwards and so are you!

Offline Shogun

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Re: The First Noble Truth: Life has inevitable suffering. Why?
« Reply #42 on: January 21, 2018, 01:29:52 am »
The First Noble Truth says: Life has inevitable suffering. Many people misquote this as 'life is suffering'. But saying that would not be true, because life has happiness, too. But nobody's life can be free from suffering, i.e. suffering is unavoidable, inevitable. Four forms of physical suffering are: birth (janm), death (mrityu), aging (jara), illness (vyadhi). Two forms of mental suffering are: association with the things one doesn't like, dissociation with the things one likes.

One reason for the existence of suffering is the existence of happiness. Right can't exist without left. Light can't exist without darkness. How do you define right without left, or light without darkness? So happiness can't exist without suffering. Everybody wants happiness, but in the process of defining happiness, we are implying the misery/dissatisfaction/suffering. If I define happiness as sipping a cup of coffee while lying on my cozy couch and watching TV in winter evenings, I am implying that being out in cold with no coziness and having to do work without coffee is misery. If I define happiness as being in the company of my love, I am implying that separation from her is misery.

In our quest of defining happiness, we are defining the misery, too. The things/circumstances that we define as happiness will then become the source of the misery. As long as you haven't got that thing/circumstance, you will be on fire, or sad, or frustrated, or angry... etc. i.e. miserable. When you have got it, you may feel happy for a while. New car, for example! But with time passing, your experience of happiness (driving the new car) becomes common, you start taking it for granted. And then it no longer is your happiness as it used to be. But you still want that feeling, and so now you define something higher to be your happiness... bigger car, more luxurious car, maybe a private yacht... And the cycle of misery continues.

Both physical and mental suffering are thus unavoidable in life... Share your thoughts. Let us try to realize the truth of suffering in life... Amitabha!
I like to think of it as unsatisfactory, more than suffering.  Thinking that something is unsatisfactory leads us to craving, desire and then when we think that we get where everything is satisfactory, it leads us to clinging. 
Even when things dont seem perfect, its more our perception and the form that we put on things.
Its like Suzuki Roshi once said, "Everything is perfect and things can always get better."

Offline Dairy Lama

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Re: The First Noble Truth: Life has inevitable suffering. Why?
« Reply #43 on: January 21, 2018, 04:58:16 am »
The chatterbox has been a troll from the outset.

I think you are projecting.

 


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