Author Topic: The Goal of Buddhism  (Read 1190 times)

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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The Goal of Buddhism
« on: November 05, 2018, 07:21:16 pm »
To think unsatisfactoriness...dukkha...
Means the world is not full of joy and beauty

Correct. Buddhism is not for everyone.  The goal of Buddhism is disenchantment towards all of the world. :namaste:

Offline Arkena

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Re: The Goal of Buddhism
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2018, 11:34:57 pm »
Isn't the goal of Buddhism to see the world as it is? To see reality? Disenchantment and enchantment both fail to see reality don't they?

Offline stillpointdancer

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Re: The Goal of Buddhism
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2018, 04:45:43 am »
Isn't the goal of Buddhism to see the world as it is? To see reality? Disenchantment and enchantment both fail to see reality don't they?

Yes, when we see the world through Buddhist eyes we see through both the disenchantment and enchantment. Much of the practice not geared towards this is geared towards keeping us safe and sane when we do.
“You do not need to leave your room. Remain sitting at your table and listen. Do not even listen, simply wait, be quiet, still and solitary. The world will freely offer itself to you to be unmasked, it has no choice, it will roll in ecstasy at your feet.” Franz Kafka

Offline Arkena

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Re: The Goal of Buddhism
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2018, 11:06:59 am »
Isn't the goal, happiness, joy and bliss with a spiritual type of desenchantment a sign post along the way? Like no food can bring true bliss, etc

Offline Chaz

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Re: The Goal of Buddhism
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2018, 05:36:39 pm »
Isn't the goal, happiness, joy and bliss with a spiritual type of desenchantment a sign post along the way? Like no food can bring true bliss, etc

Well, to muddy the waters further, there is no goal other than the path as Trungpa put it so elegantly.

To approach Buddhism as if there was something to be gained in the end, is to miss the point. The path to Buddhahood, takes so long, that to think in terms of goals is entirely pointless.

Or something like that  :dharma:
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 06:33:24 pm by Chaz »

Offline Anemephistus

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Re: The Goal of Buddhism
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2018, 10:59:33 pm »
To think unsatisfactoriness...dukkha...
Means the world is not full of joy and beauty

Correct. Buddhism is not for everyone.  The goal of Buddhism is disenchantment towards all of the world. :namaste:

I know you are good with root terms...Is that not Disillusionment?

Offline Chaz

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Re: The Goal of Buddhism
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2018, 08:23:32 am »
To think unsatisfactoriness...dukkha...
Means the world is not full of joy and beauty

Correct. Buddhism is not for everyone.  The goal of Buddhism is disenchantment towards all of the world. :namaste:

I know you are good with root terms...Is that not Disillusionment?

No.  Disillusionment might be what leads you to the Dharma in the first place.  Detachment, or disattachment might be the word you're looking for, but none of that's a goal of Buddhism either.  Equanimity is what you may be thinking about - the state of having neither attraction or revulsion towards a phenomena.  But that isn't even a goal.  Just another step on the Path.

Offline Anemephistus

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Re: The Goal of Buddhism
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2018, 02:40:42 pm »
I mean that disenchantment from the world is disillusionment. Both have a listless sort of negative connotation that don't look like compassion generating states of mind from which a proper view could be formed. disenchantment and disillusionment as the root words: to be not enchanted or removed from illusions...sure,  but in English these words don't seem to represent any kind of goal. By definition they look more depressed than enlightened.


 

Offline Chaz

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Re: The Goal of Buddhism
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2018, 02:49:44 pm »
I mean that disenchantment from the world is disillusionment.

Well, not exactly.

I believe correct usage would disenchantment/disillusion with the world.

Both words describe disappointment, so why not use that?  Just the same, neither is the goal of Buddhism.

But I suppose you're wondering just what I think the goal of Buddhism is, if not those things.

Well,
 it depends.

If you practice within the teaching of the First Turning of the Wheel of Dharma (also referred to, by some, as Hinayana.  Basically the teaching in Theravada), then the goal is Enlightenment and Nirvana.

If you are a Mahayanist, the goal is Buddhahood

« Last Edit: November 07, 2018, 06:44:01 pm by Chaz »

Offline Anemephistus

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Re: The Goal of Buddhism
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2018, 10:20:09 am »
I think that the goal of Buddhism is to recognize the four nobles truths and to follow the eight-fold path. The schools seem to have different thoughts on how to do this, and their teachings and methods are geared to different possible outcomes, but the likelihood of attaining the final product in any given lifetime is small so actually traveling the path seems more the point than the possibility of attaining the final outcome.

Offline zafrogzen

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Re: The Goal of Buddhism
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2018, 11:53:59 am »
I think that the goal of Buddhism is to recognize the four nobles truths and to follow the eight-fold path. The schools seem to have different thoughts on how to do this, and their teachings and methods are geared to different possible outcomes, but the likelihood of attaining the final product in any given lifetime is small so actually traveling the path seems more the point than the possibility of attaining the final outcome.

That might be true for you and for most people who don’t have the time or inclination to devote themselves to meditation and practice at the level necessary to make real progress on the path, but it's not true for many dedicated Zen Buddhists.

If there’s a goal it would be complete enlightenment in this lifetime. In zen that starts with Kensho or seeing one’s true nature, which is often thought of as “enlightenment.” That can happen quickly or after decades of hard practice, it can be deep or shallow, but it is rarely finished in one experience and it is never “complete” in the sense that one instantly becomes a perfect person with no flaws or conditioning. Seeing one’s true nature, the true nature of the self, is essential, but it is only the beginning of real practice.

All the schools of Buddhism, but especially zen, have the necessary tools. At certain junctures an accomplished teacher can definitively speed things up, but it is possible for some individuals to do it on their own.

Whatever, don’t waste time!

« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 12:09:15 pm by zafrogzen »
My first formal meditation training was with Shunryu Suzuki in the 60's and later with Kobun, Robert Aitken and many other teachers (mainly zen). However, I've spent the most time practicing on my own, which is all I do now. I'm living in a rather isolated area so I miss connecting with other practitioners. Despite my interest in zen I've made an effort to remain secular. You can visit my website at http://www.frogzen.com

Offline Gibbon

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Re: The Goal of Buddhism
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2018, 11:52:17 am »
I think that the goal of Buddhism is to recognize the four nobles truths and to follow the eight-fold path. The schools seem to have different thoughts on how to do this, and their teachings and methods are geared to different possible outcomes, but the likelihood of attaining the final product in any given lifetime is small so actually traveling the path seems more the point than the possibility of attaining the final outcome.

Yes, the ultimate goal is total and complete liberation.  Why settle for anything less?  Now, is it even possible or is it just a tall tale?  Yes, there are people living now who have achieved liberation, including quite a few Westerners.

That said, one needs to be strategic about how to accomplish that goal.  We all have massive amounts of negative karma and obscurations acquired in endless previous lives, and that trash takes time and effort to clear.  The awakening is hard won.  So, maintain a balance -- always strive enthusiastically for complete liberation but also recognize the everyday struggles as steps that need to be taken before you get there.  Frustration does not help anything.

If you work really hard, at the very least you make significant progress at purifying all that past stuff, then next time it will go much smoother, and soon -- hey, presto, you are there!  Om gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha.

Offline paracelsus

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Re: The Goal of Buddhism
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2018, 09:04:14 pm »
Perhaps there is no goal as such.

Any "goal" is a counterpoint to that which isn't the goal, so having an aim to one's practice is already separating "this from that".

I understand that in the ultimate analysis there is only "What Is", Suchness, and our problem (dukkha) derives from wishing that "what is" was otherwise.

I want more of this, I want less of this, I like it or I don't like it and so on.

Meditation practice, at least in part, is to be undisturbed by whatever the brain (or mind) cooks up to distract us, the "hordes of Mara" who assail us on our cushion. If we sit unimpressed before their antics, they will eventually tire of the game and settle down. Fighting them off only tires us out. Just stop and wait. Patience.

As you do, the observer, the one who waits, might be realised to be of no substance whatsoever. Every distraction and disturbance, every mental activity is not the observer, and no matter how hard we look the observer can be found to have no characteristics at all. Anything we perceive in the way of a characteristic is simply that, a perception, not a thing in itself.

Every internal and external experience, "self" and "world" are object. Subject, perception, seems to have no characteristics.

 "I" don't exist as anything more than a perception of characteristics related to this body and mind stream and its interaction with its environment.

So, this then demonstrates the importance of how we manage our own thought processes, our body, speech and mind, because these are what Mara is created from,  the natural product of our karma, harmful and beneficial.

Perhaps, just thoughts,

Metta

Offline Peppermint

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Re: The Goal of Buddhism
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2018, 06:12:45 pm »
The goal of Buddhism is disenchantment towards all of the world.
I thought it went like this: 1) There is suffering.  2) Suffering has a beginning.  3) Suffering has an end.  4) There is a way leading to the end of suffering.

Traditionally, I thought the goal was put forward as the elimination of greed, hatred, and delusion.  No?

Offline zafrogzen

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Re: The Goal of Buddhism
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2018, 08:07:14 pm »
To put forward the notion that the goal of Buddhist meditation is somewhere off in the future is to cut yourself off from your potential for enlightenment.

Past and future are just ideas with no real existence. They’re “conventions” used to describe changes occurring right here in this present moment. If the future really existed it would always be yet to come and could never actually occur. Likewise the present moment is not some thing that really exists somewhere.

So while it is essential to cultivate the “way-seeking-mind” one should not conceive of enlightenment (or nirvana) as somewhere out there, in a non-existent future. It’s always present in each moment.

That doesn’t mean that one can awaken to it without some training and practice of meditation. But it can only be realized right now in this present moment.
My first formal meditation training was with Shunryu Suzuki in the 60's and later with Kobun, Robert Aitken and many other teachers (mainly zen). However, I've spent the most time practicing on my own, which is all I do now. I'm living in a rather isolated area so I miss connecting with other practitioners. Despite my interest in zen I've made an effort to remain secular. You can visit my website at http://www.frogzen.com

 


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