Author Topic: The Second Noble Truth: The cause of suffering is craving? Is that all?  (Read 2782 times)

Offline duongcongthanh101

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Re: The Second Noble Truth: The cause of suffering is craving? Is that all?
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2017, 02:22:38 am »
If humans do not have "needs" then the world will not grow and we are still in the hunt for predators like prehistoric people. Demand is the foundation for development, and sacrifice is an essential part of this development.

Many mice died in the lab so you and I could benefit from those great inventions. Thus, the desire to search for inventions, scientific discoveries and medicine by exchanging the lives of such innocent beings is called craving?
Hoa Sen Phật chia sẻ kiến thức Phật giáo, thần chú Phật giáo và pháp thoại Phật giáo.
Website: https://hoasenphat.com

Offline Anemephistus

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Re: The Second Noble Truth: The cause of suffering is craving? Is that all?
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2017, 08:35:54 am »
If humans do not have "needs" then the world will not grow and we are still in the hunt for predators like prehistoric people. Demand is the foundation for development, and sacrifice is an essential part of this development.

Many mice died in the lab so you and I could benefit from those great inventions. Thus, the desire to search for inventions, scientific discoveries and medicine by exchanging the lives of such innocent beings is called craving?

  :buddha2:

Offline meez

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Re: The Second Noble Truth: The cause of suffering is craving? Is that all?
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2017, 09:18:47 am »
A cause cannot be directly perceived, so how could a cause ever exist?

It is a scenario of a diversity of directly perceptible existents upon which thought constructs a cause due to conditioning.


An effect cannot be directly perceived, so how could an effect ever exist?

It is a scenario of a diversity of directly perceptible existents upon which thought constructs an effect due to conditioning.


And the directly perceptible existents do have spacio-temporal extension and thus they have parts.

But what has parts cannot possibly exist inherently but exists only through imputation depending on parts.

And what exists only through imputation is itself a construction of conditioned thought.


So it boils down to the uselessness of perceptions and thoughts.

Nothing has ever existed as truth inherently.

Nothing has ever existed as a phenomenon inherently.

Nothing has ever existed as cause or effect inherently.


Everything naturally dissolves in the interval between acceptance and rejection, in the interval between affirmation and negation.

The Great Ease has been spontaneously present from the outset.


 :fu:

Are you making a deliberate effort to create the most nonsensical posts possible?

Offline Rahul

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Re: The Second Noble Truth: The cause of suffering is craving? Is that all?
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2017, 07:52:56 pm »
There seems a distant and weak link between cravings and the physical suffering as explained in most of those articles that I found. Or so it seems to me. Craving results in being, becoming, birth, and hence the aging and disease etc. What is a bit confusing to me is why birth is considered cause of aging and disease. And what about the unexpected accidental suffering not caused by aging or disease, such as accidents. But I guess from here we are entering the murky waters, or probably we can't see because of lack of vision.

Does anyone know any specific techniques to realize this truth? Meditation is of course a very general term, but I would be glad if you could elaborate what meditative techniques or topics would help realize this truth.

Offline IdleChater

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Re: The Second Noble Truth: The cause of suffering is craving? Is that all?
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2017, 08:12:28 pm »
What is a bit confusing to me is why birth is considered cause of aging and disease.

If something is not born, how can it grow old, get sick, die?

Quote
Does anyone know any specific techniques to realize this truth? Meditation is of course a very general term, but I would be glad if you could elaborate what meditative techniques or topics would help realize this truth.

Shamatha/Vipassana.  If you can find someone who can teach you Analytical meditation, that's probably best.  Teachers associated with the Nitartha Institute is one source of that training.  Meditation instructors with Nalandabodhi is another.

Find a good teacher to explain this stuff to you.

Offline Rahul

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Re: The Second Noble Truth: The cause of suffering is craving? Is that all?
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2017, 11:32:23 pm »
Quote
Quote
What is a bit confusing to me is why birth is considered cause of aging and disease.
If something is not born, how can it grow old, get sick, die?

You are assuming that birth must be followed by aging and illness. This is not an absolute truth. There are creatures that don't age, and don't die until they are hunted or meet an accident. Jellyfish and lobsters are two such species that do not age and are technically immortal, i.e. they die only when they are hunted or destroyed by an accident. Their metabolism doesn't fade, their bodies don't deteriorate.

What makes us and the vast majority of the creatures on this planet go through aging and death? I don't expect you to answer me. It's just a question that bothers me.

As for finding a teacher, I prefer to practice and study alone.

Quote
"Monks, be islands unto yourselves,[1] be your own refuge, having no other; let the Dhamma be an island and a refuge to you, having no other. Those who are islands unto themselves... should investigate to the very heart of things:[2] 'What is the source of sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair? How do they arise?'"

- Attadiipa Sutta

Offline IdleChater

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Re: The Second Noble Truth: The cause of suffering is craving? Is that all?
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2017, 06:00:37 am »
Quote
Quote
What is a bit confusing to me is why birth is considered cause of aging and disease.
If something is not born, how can it grow old, get sick, die?

You are assuming that birth must be followed by aging and illness.

Well, it's true, isn't it?  From the moment you are born you begin to age, and  become suceptable to illnesses.

Quote
This is not an absolute truth.


You had best dfine what you mean by "absolute truth".  In Buddhist teachings, Absolute Truth is Emptiness.  I don't think you're talking about Emptiness, so you should state what that is, clearly.

Name one being that doesn't get older or get sick.  We may not demonstrate aging or illness the same way others do, but we all get older and we all get sick.  Even Jellyfish and Lobsters.

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What makes us and the vast majority of the creatures on this planet go through aging and death?

Like I said before.  Birth.  Without birth,there can be no aging, sickness and death.  Untill we escape the samasaric cycle and are no longer subject to birth, it will happen to us all.

Quote
As for finding a teacher, I prefer to practice and study alone.

Ah!  But you will join a forum and ask questions about the Dharma and Practice.  You are, in effect, asking us to "teach" you.  Maybe you should run off, now, and be that "island to yourself".

LATER:  That was a little harsh.  Sorry about that.  But just the same Rahul, if you believe strongly about going it alone, being a "lamp unto yourself", I can't help but wonder why you're here in Freesangha asking dharma and practice questions and wouldn't it be better if you were off on your own figuring this stuff out for yourself?

Personally, I think going that route is an excercise in futility, but each their own.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 01:53:17 pm by IdleChater »

Offline Anemephistus

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Re: The Second Noble Truth: The cause of suffering is craving? Is that all?
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2017, 02:14:48 pm »
Quote
Quote
What is a bit confusing to me is why birth is considered cause of aging and disease.

If something is not born, how can it grow old, get sick, die?


You are assuming that birth must be followed by aging and illness. This is not an absolute truth. There are creatures that don't age, and don't die until they are hunted or meet an accident. Jellyfish and lobsters are two such species that do not age and are technically immortal, i.e. they die only when they are hunted or destroyed by an accident. Their metabolism doesn't fade, their bodies don't deteriorate.

What makes us and the vast majority of the creatures on this planet go through aging and death? I don't expect you to answer me. It's just a question that bothers me.

As for finding a teacher, I prefer to practice and study alone.

Quote
"Monks, be islands unto yourselves,[1] be your own refuge, having no other; let the Dhamma be an island and a refuge to you, having no other. Those who are islands unto themselves... should investigate to the very heart of things:[2] 'What is the source of sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair? How do they arise?'"

- Attadiipa Sutta



The immortal jellyfish...and the ancient Lobsters...I suppose if mice are relevant...Alright, The Jellyfish you refer to:

"Theoretically, this process can go on indefinitely, effectively rendering the jellyfish biologically immortal,[3][7] although in practice individuals can still die. In nature, most Turritopsis are likely to succumb to predation or disease in the medusa stage, without reverting to the polyp form"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turritopsis_dohrnii

The ancient Lobster:

Lobsters
Further information: Lobster § Longevity

Research suggests that lobsters may not slow down, weaken, or lose fertility with age, and that older lobsters may be more fertile than younger lobsters. This does not however make them immortal in the traditional sense, as they are significantly more likely to die at a shell moult the older they get (as detailed below).

Their longevity may be due to telomerase, an enzyme that repairs long repetitive sections of DNA sequences at the ends of chromosomes, referred to as telomeres. Telomerase is expressed by most vertebrates during embryonic stages but is generally absent from adult stages of life.[16] However, unlike vertebrates, lobsters express telomerase as adults through most tissue, which has been suggested to be related to their longevity.[17][18][19] Contrary to popular belief, lobsters are not immortal. Lobsters grow by moulting which requires a lot of energy, and the larger the shell the more energy is required.[20] Eventually, the lobster will die from exhaustion during a moult. Older lobsters are also known to stop moulting, which means that the shell will eventually become damaged, infected, or fall apart and they die.[21] The European lobster has an average life span of 31 years for males and 54 years for females.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_immortality

The jellyfish which reverts only does so when it is old, sick or injured, also it is essentially a floating central nervous system, which does not retain much experience or learn, when it reverts to the polyp stage it spawns a bunch of identical clones of itself. Twins for instance do not share memory, if they are identical they share exact genes, while the new Jellyfish are identical to the old one, and we can argue they are the same being based on genetics, if they shared the same experience they would be sick or injured. Since they are not sick or injured as was the state of the genetic progenitor,  and this species propagates this way, we can see that despite being genetically identical they are still different in subjective experience, if anything, the Jellyfish has an observable reincarnation not direct immortality free from suffering.

Lobsters die from exhaustion eventually while molting despite their theoretical capacity.

Both species are predators too by the way, and since the are not independent of all other life, they cause a lot of suffering in order to survive. They need to eat, they crave food, and their food craves not to be eaten, when it is, it suffers. I would bet when that jellyfish gets hurt it is often trying to eat some other living thing (I don't blame it, it craves to live just like we do, and we get to buy food when are hungry...I hope), or trying to avoid being eaten, it is not free from the craving and suffering referred to.

Either way these creatures are specific, and a part of life itself, life's greater suffering and it's causes must be realized, it can't be simply conveyed in my opinion. At least not in a way which can be accepted fully without looking at it for yourself, I can't see it all, I am not that wise but to that end....
 
Quote
There seems a distant and weak link between cravings and the physical suffering as explained in most of those articles that I found. Or so it seems to me. Craving results in being, becoming, birth, and hence the aging and disease etc. What is a bit confusing to me is why birth is considered cause of aging and disease. And what about the unexpected accidental suffering not caused by aging or disease, such as accidents. But I guess from here we are entering the murky waters, or probably we can't see because of lack of vision.

Does anyone know any specific techniques to realize this truth? Meditation is of course a very general term, but I would be glad if you could elaborate what meditative techniques or topics would help realize this truth.



You have asked for a suggestion about a perspective meditation which can help with this understanding. I am not a recognized teacher, or a teacher of any kind, I am not a wise person, a monk, a layperson, a guru or any other manner of special person and not really qualified in any sense. But if you choose to ask, and wish to accept an answer from me still understanding this, then I will offer what I think might be a way of seeing what you are asking about. If you do not wish to use it that is your choice and, and it is perhaps wiser, your call.  I do not know what you have practiced, so I will go from where I started. After I discovered I couldn't skip certain things...and thought I had achieved some stuff which I had not but didn't get why until later.

So for me these has been interdependent:

Taming the Monkey Mind!

https://daringtolivefully.com/tame-your-monkey-mind

Tame that Monkey!  :D The link has several suggestions for helping to deal with the Monkey mind, I can't say that they are all the best ideas available and there is a lot of literature and information about this topic. Personally I just about thought I was going crazy when I tried to focus, then to calmly abide in the present moment, at first I thought I must be either broken or that I was insane, it was torturous, suddenly monks looked god like to me sitting there for hours peacefully. I figured it was possible, but how? Tame the monkey!

Research provided that my monkey mind was at the heart of my problem. Effort, and lots of it brought it to a more manageable level. This was partially due to reading the Heart Sutra and seeing a certain amount of emptiness in the things it was telling me, and a certain amount of interconnected-ness as well but what may work for you could be very different. I don't teach people and so I don't know all of the troubles related to solving this but would love to hear about what approach you take and what works for you should you choose to try it. I had an undelying issue as well which I will elaborate on later.

This is not the classic translation of the heart sutra, but it is the one I think is most accurate based on my experience, which may very well be flawed.

https://plumvillage.org/news/thich-nhat-hanh-new-heart-sutra-translation/

I  read this one first with all of the commentary, It may provide extra or necessary reference.

https://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/heartstr.htm


Calm Abiding...

I would draw your attention to this linked article at the bottom of the section, number 2 specifically with regards to mindfulness meditation practices. Clam abiding and mindfulness are requisite conditions and foundational to meditative practice, but they are not the sole goal of it. I struggled really hard with mindfulness and calm abiding as requisite conditions as described in the monkey mind paragraph. Turns out I had an undiagnosed anxiety disorder which no meditation that was practicable in my life circumstances was going to work. I could have discarded my life path and gone to a monastery, that might have done it, but I have attachment and so I did not choose to try that option.

My mind was empty for hours and there was no thinking, just the room and breathing and body,  this went on for days when I sat to meditate, but still my heart pounded in my chest and physically I was afraid despite having no attachment to any object of fear. I had started all of this to end a substance abuse problem and I ended up going to get professional help with my anxiety well after it had already helped with the first issue (along with much other input from twelve step program information and my wife). It took the doctor two visits and talking to me to agree my problem was almost definitely brain chemistry because of how I had already tried to deal with it and the state I had gotten to without it stopping.  This happens to me in the fall every year. I see him every six months.

After some rough adjustment, I found the requisite condition, a place I always have to start over to get to when I get lazy and don't put right effort into my practice. Me and my Monkey stay on pretty good terms these days though and I don't have to fight with the simian grunt very often even if I stray for awhile. So I find My mindfulness again, each time is easier, then I move forward.

http://www.freesangha.com/forums/beginner's-buddhism/ten-misperceptions-about-buddhism-(extended-version)/


Understanding Vipassana:
 
https://tricycle.org/magazine/vipassana-meditation/

to quote the article:

"In Vipassana mediation, the meditator uses his concentration as a tool by which his awareness can chip away at the wall of illusion that cuts him off from the living light of reality. It is a gradual process of ever-increasing awareness into the inner workings of reality itself. It takes years, but one day the meditator chisels through that wall and tumbles into the presence of light. The transformation is complete. It’s called Liberation, and it’s permanent. Liberation is the goal of all Buddhist systems of practice. But the routes to the attainment of that end are quite diverse." 

I am not a liberated being, nope, not at all. But I work with this. What I have discerned from it and the peace it has already brought me each time I get to this point is beyond even the wordy scope of this post. I have several times walked around in a daze after I realize something almost unable to process it and as it becomes apparent that it is more applicable in my perception the world comes further into view, I have no idea how far it reaches, getting to the point where I concentrate on it from the platform of stillness to remove barriers described in the sutra/suttas is effective for me. It's just not possible for me to convey what that means perspective wise without writing a really dry book. No one would buy the book, and it would be less informative than the many beings already far better versed than me in the practice. I'm just not that wise, and not a very good Buddhist. I think however that the insight mindfulness meditation brings is critical.


The four sublime states (It's in a PDF form from Buddhanet):

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiNv86SrZvYAhUN6GMKHTedCZ4QFgg7MAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.buddhanet.net%2Fpdf_file%2F4sublime_states.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1JCHJvmLnQ7zCRrVGMqQaY

(this is a website version without the discourse)

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel006.html

I haven't fully attained this teaching, it includes instructions about where to focus thought energy and what to meditate on. The effort I have put into it which when combined with a limited understanding of an interconnected reality has challenged me to lose a lot of notions, some I have let go of, others not so much, but if we ask questions about the great cycle of all suffering and it's source then seeing all living things with the proper perspective seems critical to the understanding.

I hope it helps, the meditation on the four sublime states is...difficult for me, I am exposed to a lot of things which make it hard to hold onto and act on. We all are honestly, but these were taught by the Buddha and I think the effort of seeking them might help provide an answer. Where intellect seeks to overcome the answers we find, realization can provide the answers through proper discernment, but I cannot give you realization, I'm just not that wise, so I think through the Sutra you can find you hold the capacity for what you are seeking in this case if you put in the right effort to find it and use careful and proper discernment. You will need to take extra care without a teacher, I have arrived at some bad conclusions because I have had guidance only in the form of books and it caused me extra effort to recognize them....I also can't tell how many more I haul around because there is no one to tell me for sure.   

Sorry for the immodest leangth of the post, but you have said

 
Quote
Does anyone know any specific techniques to realize this truth? Meditation is of course a very general term, but I would be glad if you could elaborate what meditative techniques or topics would help realize this truth.


I am just not able to make it smaller for such a big question.

Lastly: The word "Know" is operative, I do not know this will do what you ask, I cannot see the outcome fully as I am not educated on the thousands of years of what works and what does not work for specific things, But I have worked with all of this (Not attained it fully) and I think I see what you are asking for.  I can point at what I have done, and tell you about it. But I am no authority and wish to be clear for one last time on this point.

Best wishes! I hope it helps!

 :om:

   
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 04:30:42 pm by Anemephistus »

Offline ground

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Re: The Second Noble Truth: The cause of suffering is craving? Is that all?
« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2017, 11:50:48 pm »
Does anyone know any specific techniques to realize this truth?
Belief and belief that this belief is realization.  :fu:

Does anyone know any specific techniques to realize this truth? Meditation is of course a very general term, but I would be glad if you could elaborate what meditative techniques or topics would help realize this truth.

Shamatha/Vipassana.  If you can find someone who can teach you Analytical meditation, that's probably best.  Teachers associated with the Nitartha Institute is one source of that training.  Meditation instructors with Nalandabodhi is another.

Find a good teacher to explain this stuff to you.

He advises to find someone who can make you believe.  :fu:


As for finding a teacher, I prefer to practice and study alone.
It wouldn't take much to believe if doubt wouldn't be concomitant with belief.  :fu:
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 11:58:44 pm by ground »

Offline ground

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Re: The Second Noble Truth: The cause of suffering is craving? Is that all?
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2017, 12:03:16 am »
A cause cannot be directly perceived, so how could a cause ever exist?

It is a scenario of a diversity of directly perceptible existents upon which thought constructs a cause due to conditioning.


An effect cannot be directly perceived, so how could an effect ever exist?

It is a scenario of a diversity of directly perceptible existents upon which thought constructs an effect due to conditioning.


And the directly perceptible existents do have spacio-temporal extension and thus they have parts.

But what has parts cannot possibly exist inherently but exists only through imputation depending on parts.

And what exists only through imputation is itself a construction of conditioned thought.


So it boils down to the uselessness of perceptions and thoughts.

Nothing has ever existed as truth inherently.

Nothing has ever existed as a phenomenon inherently.

Nothing has ever existed as cause or effect inherently.


Everything naturally dissolves in the interval between acceptance and rejection, in the interval between affirmation and negation.

The Great Ease has been spontaneously present from the outset.


 :fu:

Are you making a deliberate effort to create the most nonsensical posts possible?

There is no effort involved in non-doing. Words are empty of meaning from the outset. If nonsense is found in words that is the nonsense arising dependent on the reader's conditioning or lack of appropriate conditioning. :fu:

Offline meez

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Re: The Second Noble Truth: The cause of suffering is craving? Is that all?
« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2017, 09:13:38 am »

There is no effort involved in non-doing. Words are empty of meaning from the outset. If nonsense is found in words that is the nonsense arising dependent on the reader's conditioning or lack of appropriate conditioning. :fu:

You are "doing" and you are making an effort.  The fact that you take multiple steps to visit the site, log in, click on threads, read them, click the reply button, type the words, then click "post" means you aren't even close to "non-doing".  If you truly believed words are empty and meaningless, you wouldn't be "doing" all the aforementioned things to let everyone here see them.

The "everything is nothing and nothing is nothing and this is empty and emptiness is nothingness" stuff is too much for every thread you comment in.

Offline ground

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Re: The Second Noble Truth: The cause of suffering is craving? Is that all?
« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2017, 10:54:02 pm »

There is no effort involved in non-doing. Words are empty of meaning from the outset. If nonsense is found in words that is the nonsense arising dependent on the reader's conditioning or lack of appropriate conditioning. :fu:

You are "doing" and you are making an effort.  The fact that you take multiple steps to visit the site, log in, click on threads, read them, click the reply button, type the words, then click "post" means you aren't even close to "non-doing".  If you truly believed words are empty and meaningless, you wouldn't be "doing" all the aforementioned things to let everyone here see them.

The "everything is nothing and nothing is nothing and this is empty and emptiness is nothingness" stuff is too much for every thread you comment in.

The 'you'-ing and the 'me'-ing and the 'they'-ing and the 'we'-ing arise ceaselessly as does the asserting, believing, accepting, affirming, rejecting and negating.
Since nothing at all, neither the 'you', nor the 'me', nor the 'they, nor the 'we' etc. has ever existed inherently as self or other what or who may get involved in arisings when what arises dissolves in the interval between acceptance and rejction, in the inverval between affirmation and negation? Without involvement what may be the basis for volition and effort? Without volition and effort what may be the basis for doing sth? Nobody doing anything. No basis in empty space.
Simplicity, suchness, notionlessness -
The Great Ease.

 :fu:

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: The Second Noble Truth: The cause of suffering is craving? Is that all?
« Reply #27 on: December 24, 2017, 11:39:49 am »
Quote
The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All.  Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.023.than.html

 :fu:

Silly kindergarten sutta for silly Brahmans who sillyly believed Brahma or God was 'The All'. Quoting this sutta all the time means nothing much.  :bugeye:

Offline ground

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Re: The Second Noble Truth: The cause of suffering is craving? Is that all?
« Reply #28 on: December 24, 2017, 11:36:01 pm »
Quoting this sutta all the time means nothing much.  :bugeye:
Nothing means anything from the outset. Total meaninglessness. Great Ease.

 :fu:

Offline Rahul

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Re: The Second Noble Truth: The cause of suffering is craving? Is that all?
« Reply #29 on: December 25, 2017, 07:52:27 pm »
If you say that's a 'kindergarten' sutta, you should reconsider its meaning and implications. We think the world means the objects, the scenery, the smells, ... but in fact it's all just an experience. Experience arising from the stimuli coming in contact with your senses, and the way you interpret them. It's just and just an experience. Haven't we all had vivid dreams in which we feel it to be a reality? For example, in such a dream if you see coins lying in the ground and if you pick them up, it feels as good as a real coin. When you wake up you realized it was your mind tricking you to feel that it was real. This reality is no more than that. A trickery of the mind. Maya!

 


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