Author Topic: Wanting and self  (Read 2786 times)

Offline Shogun

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Re: Wanting and self
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2018, 11:45:17 pm »
True, there is no self.  However, our delusions convince us that there is a self and thats where cravings come from.

Offline Anemephistus

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Re: Wanting and self
« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2018, 08:29:49 pm »
In the first story, the Zen master asked the novice monk:
“Tell me about your understanding of the Heart sutra.”

Quote
The novice monk joined his palms and replied:
“I have understood that the five skandhas are empty. There are no eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body or mind; there are no forms, sounds, smells, tastes, feelings, or objects of mind; the six consciousnesses do not exist, the eighteen realms of phenomena do not exist, the twelve links of dependent arising do not exist, and even wisdom and attainment do not exist.”
“Do you believe what it says?”
“Yes, I truly believe what it says.”

“Come closer to me,” the Zen master instructed the novice monk. When the novice monk drew near, the Zen master immediately used his thumb and index finger to pinch and twist the novice’s nose.
In great agony, the novice cried out “Teacher! You’re hurting me!” The Zen master looked at the novice. “Just now you said that the nose doesn’t exist. But if the nose doesn’t exist then what’s hurting?”

Source:

https://plumvillage.org/news/thich-nhat-hanh-new-heart-sutra-translation/

I am pretty sure that the nose does not arise from delusion. Interdependent nature may create the nose and it is in fact empty of a separate self as are we all, but there is still also a nose. 

Offline Dairy Lama

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Re: Wanting and self
« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2018, 02:48:14 am »
In the first story, the Zen master asked the novice monk:
“Tell me about your understanding of the Heart sutra.”

Quote
The novice monk joined his palms and replied:
“I have understood that the five skandhas are empty. There are no eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body or mind; there are no forms, sounds, smells, tastes, feelings, or objects of mind; the six consciousnesses do not exist, the eighteen realms of phenomena do not exist, the twelve links of dependent arising do not exist, and even wisdom and attainment do not exist.”
“Do you believe what it says?”
“Yes, I truly believe what it says.”

“Come closer to me,” the Zen master instructed the novice monk. When the novice monk drew near, the Zen master immediately used his thumb and index finger to pinch and twist the novice’s nose.
In great agony, the novice cried out “Teacher! You’re hurting me!” The Zen master looked at the novice. “Just now you said that the nose doesn’t exist. But if the nose doesn’t exist then what’s hurting?”

Source:

https://plumvillage.org/news/thich-nhat-hanh-new-heart-sutra-translation/

I am pretty sure that the nose does not arise from delusion. Interdependent nature may create the nose and it is in fact empty of a separate self as are we all, but there is still also a nose.

"Nose" is really a perception, and that is one way in which it is dependently arisen.
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream"

Offline Anemephistus

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Re: Wanting and self
« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2018, 11:49:35 am »
In the first story, the Zen master asked the novice monk:
“Tell me about your understanding of the Heart sutra.”

Quote
The novice monk joined his palms and replied:
“I have understood that the five skandhas are empty. There are no eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body or mind; there are no forms, sounds, smells, tastes, feelings, or objects of mind; the six consciousnesses do not exist, the eighteen realms of phenomena do not exist, the twelve links of dependent arising do not exist, and even wisdom and attainment do not exist.”
“Do you believe what it says?”
“Yes, I truly believe what it says.”

“Come closer to me,” the Zen master instructed the novice monk. When the novice monk drew near, the Zen master immediately used his thumb and index finger to pinch and twist the novice’s nose.
In great agony, the novice cried out “Teacher! You’re hurting me!” The Zen master looked at the novice. “Just now you said that the nose doesn’t exist. But if the nose doesn’t exist then what’s hurting?”

Source:

https://plumvillage.org/news/thich-nhat-hanh-new-heart-sutra-translation/

I am pretty sure that the nose does not arise from delusion. Interdependent nature may create the nose and it is in fact empty of a separate self as are we all, but there is still also a nose.

"Nose" is really a perception, and that is one way in which it is dependently arisen.

I completely agree but the novices nose hurts too. 

Online IdleChater

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Re: Wanting and self
« Reply #34 on: January 24, 2018, 01:14:01 pm »
In the first story, the Zen master asked the novice monk:
“Tell me about your understanding of the Heart sutra.”

Quote
The novice monk joined his palms and replied:
“I have understood that the five skandhas are empty. There are no eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body or mind; there are no forms, sounds, smells, tastes, feelings, or objects of mind; the six consciousnesses do not exist, the eighteen realms of phenomena do not exist, the twelve links of dependent arising do not exist, and even wisdom and attainment do not exist.”
“Do you believe what it says?”
“Yes, I truly believe what it says.”

“Come closer to me,” the Zen master instructed the novice monk. When the novice monk drew near, the Zen master immediately used his thumb and index finger to pinch and twist the novice’s nose.
In great agony, the novice cried out “Teacher! You’re hurting me!” The Zen master looked at the novice. “Just now you said that the nose doesn’t exist. But if the nose doesn’t exist then what’s hurting?”

Source:

https://plumvillage.org/news/thich-nhat-hanh-new-heart-sutra-translation/

I am pretty sure that the nose does not arise from delusion. Interdependent nature may create the nose and it is in fact empty of a separate self as are we all, but there is still also a nose.

You're dancing with the difference between absolute and relative truth.  In the absolute there is only emptiness and in emptiness there is no nose.  In relative thruth there is a nose, which is why when someone punches you in the nose, it hurts.

This is why, in the kagyu lineage there is a precept in the Bodhisattva Vows to not teach emptiness to a person who isn't ready for it.

Offline Anemephistus

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Re: Wanting and self
« Reply #35 on: January 24, 2018, 01:36:21 pm »
In the first story, the Zen master asked the novice monk:
“Tell me about your understanding of the Heart sutra.”

Quote
The novice monk joined his palms and replied:
“I have understood that the five skandhas are empty. There are no eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body or mind; there are no forms, sounds, smells, tastes, feelings, or objects of mind; the six consciousnesses do not exist, the eighteen realms of phenomena do not exist, the twelve links of dependent arising do not exist, and even wisdom and attainment do not exist.”
“Do you believe what it says?”
“Yes, I truly believe what it says.”

“Come closer to me,” the Zen master instructed the novice monk. When the novice monk drew near, the Zen master immediately used his thumb and index finger to pinch and twist the novice’s nose.
In great agony, the novice cried out “Teacher! You’re hurting me!” The Zen master looked at the novice. “Just now you said that the nose doesn’t exist. But if the nose doesn’t exist then what’s hurting?”

Source:

https://plumvillage.org/news/thich-nhat-hanh-new-heart-sutra-translation/

I am pretty sure that the nose does not arise from delusion. Interdependent nature may create the nose and it is in fact empty of a separate self as are we all, but there is still also a nose.

You're dancing with the difference between absolute and relative truth.  In the absolute there is only emptiness and in emptiness there is no nose.  In relative thruth there is a nose, which is why when someone punches you in the nose, it hurts.

This is why, in the kagyu lineage there is a precept in the Bodhisattva Vows to not teach emptiness to a person who isn't ready for it.

The two are not exactly separate though either. My understanding is that there is not one truth, then another, or both separately,  but I am also not arguing the use of the language you have used there because it is as good of a way as any to put it. I agree that it can be damaging if not viewed correctly for a person. I think that Being empty of an independent nature makes one with everything, but it does not make everything nothing. 

Offline Dairy Lama

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Re: Wanting and self
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2018, 02:09:38 am »
In the first story, the Zen master asked the novice monk:
“Tell me about your understanding of the Heart sutra.”

Quote
The novice monk joined his palms and replied:
“I have understood that the five skandhas are empty. There are no eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body or mind; there are no forms, sounds, smells, tastes, feelings, or objects of mind; the six consciousnesses do not exist, the eighteen realms of phenomena do not exist, the twelve links of dependent arising do not exist, and even wisdom and attainment do not exist.”
“Do you believe what it says?”
“Yes, I truly believe what it says.”

“Come closer to me,” the Zen master instructed the novice monk. When the novice monk drew near, the Zen master immediately used his thumb and index finger to pinch and twist the novice’s nose.
In great agony, the novice cried out “Teacher! You’re hurting me!” The Zen master looked at the novice. “Just now you said that the nose doesn’t exist. But if the nose doesn’t exist then what’s hurting?”

Source:

https://plumvillage.org/news/thich-nhat-hanh-new-heart-sutra-translation/

I am pretty sure that the nose does not arise from delusion. Interdependent nature may create the nose and it is in fact empty of a separate self as are we all, but there is still also a nose.

"Nose" is really a perception, and that is one way in which it is dependently arisen.

I completely agree but the novices nose hurts too.

"Pain" is also a perception, and also dependently arising.
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream"

Offline Dairy Lama

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Re: Wanting and self
« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2018, 02:13:00 am »
I think that Being empty of an independent nature makes one with everything, but it does not make everything nothing.

Where did you get the being "one with everything" idea?  And how does that relate to what the Heart Sutra describes, which is the emptiness of the five  skandhas?

"Avalokiteshvara
while practicing deeply with
the Insight that Brings Us to the Other Shore,
suddenly discovered that
all of the five skandhas are equally empty,
and with this realisation
he overcame all Ill-being."
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream"

Online IdleChater

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Re: Wanting and self
« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2018, 07:03:10 am »
I think that Being empty of an independent nature makes one with everything, but it does not make everything nothing.

Where did you get the being "one with everything" idea?  And how does that relate to what the Heart Sutra describes, which is the emptiness of the five  skandhas?

"Avalokiteshvara
while practicing deeply with
the Insight that Brings Us to the Other Shore,
suddenly discovered that
all of the five skandhas are equally empty,
and with this realisation
he overcame all Ill-being."

It seems to me that a lot of people coming to Buddhism get this "one with the universe"  thing going.  TNH's term "interbeing" doesn't help.

It's easy to go there.  If no self is to be found in emptiness there will be now other.  What's left, then?  Many people just fall back to the new age / old hippy-on-acid idea about oneness with the universe.

However the answer can't be found in intellectual excercise because mind is as much a part or the whole self/other paradigm asanything else.  What's needed is a real, face-to-face experience of emptiness.  When that is realized, then you'll realize what exisits if self/other doesn't.

Offline Dairy Lama

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Re: Wanting and self
« Reply #39 on: January 25, 2018, 07:32:46 am »
It seems to me that a lot of people coming to Buddhism get this "one with the universe"  thing going.  TNH's term "interbeing" doesn't help.
It's easy to go there.  If no self is to be found in emptiness there will be now other.  What's left, then?  Many people just fall back to the new age / old hippy-on-acid idea about oneness with the universe.

Yes, and the idea of being one with the universe just means there is more to grasp at!  I admire TNH and was in an Interbeing sangha for many years, but I was always puzzled by his "interbeing" idea, it seems an odd way to interpret sunyata and the Heart Sutra. 
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream"

Online IdleChater

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Re: Wanting and self
« Reply #40 on: January 25, 2018, 10:51:18 am »
It seems to me that a lot of people coming to Buddhism get this "one with the universe"  thing going.  TNH's term "interbeing" doesn't help.
It's easy to go there.  If no self is to be found in emptiness there will be now other.  What's left, then?  Many people just fall back to the new age / old hippy-on-acid idea about oneness with the universe.

Yes, and the idea of being one with the universe just means there is more to grasp at! 

Yes, one more conceptualiztion.


I admire TNH and was in an Interbeing sangha for many years, but I was always puzzled by his "interbeing" idea, it seems an odd way to interpret sunyata and the Heart Sutra.
[/quote]

It's hard to not like Thich Naht Hahn,  but the whole interbeing thing leaves me scratching my head too.  It goes against a lot of what I've been taught.

Offline Anemephistus

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Re: Wanting and self
« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2018, 12:58:38 pm »
I think that Being empty of an independent nature makes one with everything, but it does not make everything nothing.

Where did you get the being "one with everything" idea?  And how does that relate to what the Heart Sutra describes, which is the emptiness of the five  skandhas?

"Avalokiteshvara
while practicing deeply with
the Insight that Brings Us to the Other Shore,
suddenly discovered that
all of the five skandhas are equally empty,
and with this realisation
he overcame all Ill-being."

The first of these is most relevant to where I come by this type of thinking.

I offer this article from Master Thich Nhat Hanh:

https://www.lionsroar.com/the-fullness-of-emptiness/

This is a bit of a discourse on the Heart Suttra and it explains the interpretation which I am referencing, it is not the only source of this type of thinking, but it was the easiest to find. It is not always how I have understood it, but after considering it my thoughts on this subject were changed. In my life whenever I have tested changes or logic suggested by Thich Nhat Hanh my life has improved, and my understanding has deepened, in some ways, very drastically. This has been my experience but you have many years of considering these things and may have many other insights which are different, still, you may find it interesting at least.

It was Master Thich Nhat Hanh's opinion from reading the following link that the history of the Heart sutra and the skill of the common English translation was insufficient to fully convey it's meaning. While I am certain that this is a contentious point It underlines the difference in where I am coming from.

https://plumvillage.org/news/thich-nhat-hanh-new-heart-sutra-translation/

To IdleChater: As far as the "hippy" feel good thing, I invite you, read the first link, evaluate the logic of it. I have often described my experiences, I know it may not be the same as you see it, and I agree that there is a knowledge that must be understood within the void-ness which is present, but void of what? Empty of what? As I understand this it is empty of "self", empty in truth of independent nature, also empty of all of the aggregates and foundations which are reliant on self, because in truth there is no "self" in a relative way. It cannot be empty of nothing, the description of empty does not fit that logic. I agree with Master Thich Nhat Hanh that this is because it is full of everything. I think this is as an absolute, inclusive without bounds. I can see this, but I cannot attain and hold awareness of it very well because I have attachments.

I spent five hours trying to write down what I came to from this temporary awareness and permanent insight, I tried very hard to find language which would convey it. It's very personal and I felt it would come across as presumptuous that anyone would believe it and since I am still working on the faults in my own life, and I am no master or monk or wise person, for the time being I will simply say that I feel there is something here very difficult for me to express.

I would add this, I have thought  lot on interbeing if we want to go over it.

Online IdleChater

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Re: Wanting and self
« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2018, 05:38:28 pm »

To IdleChater: As far as the "hippy" feel good thing, I invite you, read the first link, evaluate the logic of it.

OK, I read it ...... or at least tried to.  I've never been a big fan of TNH's writing style.  Florid styles of writing like his, that go to extreme and complicated lengths to make a point are really difficult.  I'm a developer/engineer of web-based applications and information systems.  I've learned that most people online don't really read what's on the screen.  They scan it.  I'm a scanner and if I can't pick up a writers logic, or at least enough to get me to go back, slow down, and read again, I won't get it.

What I read in the article was excessively florid and the logic embedded in endless ramblings of example that didn't seem to support the conclusions he makes.


 
Quote
I have often described my experiences, I know it may not be the same as you see it, and I agree that there is a knowledge that must be understood within the void-ness which is present, but void of what? Empty of what?

Emptiness of inherent existence - existence in and of itself.

Quote
As I understand this it is empty of "self", empty in truth of independent nature, also empty of all of the aggregates and foundations which are reliant on self, because in truth there is no "self" in a relative way.

Empty of a self that exists inherently.  Relatively speaking, the self is very real.  Let's say a parent dies.  You are devastated.  You may not sleep for days, because of the unbearable grief you are experience.  This is a part of our perception of self.  When my father died my grief was so great that I went without sleep - no sleep - for 4 days.  I'm here to tell you, that that experience of self is very, VERY real.  Even though, in an ultimate sense, there is no self to be found, that relative experience was enough to nearly cause a psychotic break.

 
Quote
It cannot be empty of nothing, the description of empty does not fit that logic. I agree with Master Thich Nhat Hanh that this is because it is full of everything.


This is a part of TNH's florid style.  Full of EVERYTHING!!!  Full of POTENTIAL!!!!  Insiring words used to drive home a point that from my read, simply wasn't supported.

Read the Heart Sutra carefully.  Look at other translations (they are not all the same).  Read commentaries.  The Dali Lama has a good one and Heart Attack Sutra by Karl Brunnholzl (one of my Guru's senior students),  and  related books on emptiness like Progressive Stages of Meditation on Emptiness by Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche  (My Guru's Guru)


Quote
I think this is as an absolute, inclusive without bounds.

I'm not sure I agree with you on that ....



Quote
I can see this, but I cannot attain and hold awareness of it very well because I have attachments.

I say it's that way because you don't have a particularly strong practice.  Attachments have nothing to do with it.

Quote
I spent five hours trying to write down what I came to from this temporary awareness and permanent insight, I tried very hard to find language which would convey it. It's very personal and I felt it would come across as presumptuous that anyone would believe it and since I am still working on the faults in my own life, and I am no master or monk or wise person, for the time being I will simply say that I feel there is something here very difficult for me to express. [/quote

You keep talking about how you're not wise, not a monk, or a master.  I think we all got that a while back.  I think it's safe to say we all believe you are none of those things, so you can move on and quit apologizing for something that, in the context of this forum, really isn't very important.

Offline Anemephistus

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Re: Wanting and self
« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2018, 07:45:29 pm »
Thank you for taking the time to read it.

 I don't want to be contentious and honestly without any reservation, you have my sympathy for your suffering with you fathers death, losing a parent is traumatic, more so for some and I am glad that you have a way of seeing things which has brought you an understanding that is effective at coping with this. I am not implying any judgment on this point, if you are at greater peace from this suffering because of your understanding of the Dharma, that is good and more important than the scope of this discussion.

Much peace and loving kindness to you

Offline Dairy Lama

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Re: Wanting and self
« Reply #44 on: January 26, 2018, 02:14:55 am »
Empty of what? As I understand this it is empty of "self", empty in truth of independent nature, also empty of all of the aggregates and foundations which are reliant on self, because in truth there is no "self" in a relative way. It cannot be empty of nothing, the description of empty does not fit that logic. I agree with Master Thich Nhat Hanh that this is because it is full of everything. I think this is as an absolute, inclusive without bounds.

The Heart Sutra basically says that the aggregates are empty ( of independent existence ).  So the aggregates are conditional, dependent arising.  And the aggregates are a model of personal experience, which means that our experience is conditional and dependent arising.  So the Heart Sutra is about liberation from suffering via a direct realisation of the nature of our experience. 

Sunyata deals with phenomena ( dhammas ), and phenomena are what we experience.  Sunyata is the nature of phenomena, not a ground of being or Tao or whatever.  Check out "emptiness of emptiness" - sunyata is also empty!
« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 02:42:09 am by Dairy Lama »
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