Author Topic: What is the cause of the impermanence?  (Read 1525 times)

Offline loopix

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Re: What is the cause of the impermanence?
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2018, 10:54:54 am »

 what is the cause for arising and cessation.

Do you have a take on that?

the cause of arising and cessation is karma, something causes anything into something else, and ceases when karma of that cause and effect is exhausted, - then mind has to cause form to create the cause of another arising, event and cessation... on on it goes :)

Offline loopix

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Re: What is the cause of the impermanence?
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2018, 10:56:07 am »
so what causes mind? (how far can this go?  :wink1: )

Offline Chaz

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Re: What is the cause of the impermanence?
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2018, 11:20:14 am »
so what causes mind? (how far can this go?  :wink1: )

Good question.  Look into how the 5 skandhas arise and you will have your answer.

Offline Anemephistus

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Re: What is the cause of the impermanence?
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2018, 05:59:37 pm »
I have no interest in testing anyone's knowledge. Everything can be Googled, but that's not what everyone wants for various reasons, nor Googling always answers the question at hand satisfactorily.

The underlying knowledge came from an interest in science, the references were Googled to support the statements because I do not have a certificate for this type of knowledge.

The placement of the information... Except  for the telemere info which was recent to me, came from a mediation practice that I engaged in, focused on the the interconnected nature of material things, impermanence, and interdependent co-arising circumstances of socioeconomic and sociopolitical factors which contribute to beings in a way to make them more understandable from my perspective.

https://www.lionsroar.com/the-fullness-of-emptiness/

With respect,
I decided to post an explanation of what I had considered.

My comment was in reply to IdelChatter who was asking me if I had Googled.

My apologies, I have a kind of encyclopedic dry way of writing i have been told, even when my thoughts are not as well informed I tend to give many citations and  considerations, I thought perhaps I had over done it :).

In reference to the direction this thread has taken on:

The concept of "pratityasamutpada" or "dependent organization"  gave me a lot of insight into my answer for "what is the cause for arising and cessation". The scope of this concept is quite extensive perhaps exhaustive. The insight of the circumstances which spread out like an endless spider web from the beginning to the end.

Consider the full breadth of circumstances which have arisen to this moment without limits. Without getting caught in the complexity of the thought, its possible to see quite a bit about the nature of beings and what they do and do not have control over. What they have had the opportunity to consider and what they have not. What they have a willing disposition towards and what is not currently favorable to them, and the underlying reasons for all of these things and more. Of course it takes a lot of practice and works on experience not mystical insight. If I have talked to one gang member in prison, I have talked to at least 500 and after I recognize a lot of traits that they have in common I carefully diffuse certain common notions that they tend to share. This is not limited at all to this example.

Looking for dependent arising is somewhat reflexive for me, because I want to understand and help and I work in a place where I constantly encounter things which are very far from what I consider as proper thinking. It helps a lot when trying to have compassion for these things (which is more of a struggle than I would like for me and I am working on it) because when we see that a person was as much an extension of their circumstances and how reality formed around them as they were their own poor discernment's and improper thinking ( and almost always these things are linked) its easy(ier) to address and work with that person to help them understand the situations they are facing and to remove the suffering from they are experiencing from it.

Without compassion for what can be seen from considering "pratityasamutpada" it seems that judgment based on aversion or attachment takes over. We see a person with similar circumstances and they make sense and we are comfortable, they express an idea and we like it, we see a person who is a criminal and comes from a different background and we feel displeasure and discomfort, they express even a correct idea and we want to clarify because we are not certain such a person could be correct. Staying objective about the goal of removing suffering and using compassion to look at what might be causing the suffering that is present and how to adjust the situation to this end is better in my opinion. It does not always work for me, and most of my co-workers are terrible at it, so I have to keep it in mind for them as well, I think we are all subject to inter-being and to dependent organization if we live in the world.

Ultimately the root of arising and cessation are different than recognizing and dealing with arising and cessation in my opinion, the noble eight fold path taught by the Buddha is the path to cessation, the cause of arising is absence of the path, not absence of understanding the path...a being can have something not arise because they posses understanding about the nature of how to deal with it without ever having heard of the path. I think that achieving cessation in the sense that is fully awakened seems to be a matter of understanding that dependent organization is at play if we are trying to reach this goal and still take into account the worlds many beings and are in a position of interacting with them. I have not achieved this state however and so I may be incorrect.

I found this really helpful in collecting these thoughts. It's insight is far deeper than mine on this subject, it is a PDF from a recognized reliable (not malware infested) source:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/shapeofsuffering.pdf


Offline loopix

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Re: What is the cause of the impermanence?
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2018, 08:02:35 am »
so what causes mind? (how far can this go?  :wink1: )

Probability becomes potential, potential can only exist in the form of action, and recurrence give rise to sustenance. Sustenance cause affliction (form) because of diversity. Affliction is perpetuated by sustenance-craving (feeling). Ignorance give rise to fabrications of craving (desire) because of impermanence. Mental formation prioritizes conditioned existence. Desire becomes rebirth, consciousness perceives its own existence and is therefore aware.

The wave of eternity seizes itself by cognition of one part subjected to the whole.


what spawns counciesness?


Offline Anemephistus

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Re: What is the cause of the impermanence?
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2018, 04:57:03 pm »
so what causes mind? (how far can this go?  :wink1: )

Probability becomes potential, potential can only exist in the form of action, and recurrence give rise to sustenance. Sustenance cause affliction (form) because of diversity. Affliction is perpetuated by sustenance-craving (feeling). Ignorance give rise to fabrications of craving (desire) because of impermanence. Mental formation prioritizes conditioned existence. Desire becomes rebirth, consciousness perceives its own existence and is therefore aware.

The wave of eternity seizes itself by cognition of one part subjected to the whole.


what spawns counciesness?

Sense-contact makes object appear by mental formation, reality is mirrored in cognition. Consciousness is that which cognizes sense-impression and object. Manifested mirrored reality represents self-aware being.

I really like to post in words that make direct sense, but I don't know how to say this and wish to ask you Solodris, if you know, I will describe it...poorly...and feel free to say it however you like of course, you really good at describing these things, I am not.

I think it is also true that reality would be here whether there were senses perceiving it or not, I consider this sometimes. To borrow a term :noumenon, or no-perception of phenomenon while still allowing for [no word available...existence, reality, convoluted wobbled up ball of everything-ish-ness?]. The result of this contemplation..I cant really put words to. It looks, blue-ish but hat was perception on my part I'm pretty sure...and it's vast and everything is one thing but one thing within everything is still a...thing..but it's not. When consideration is returned to things which require direct subjective perception they are "smaller?" for awhile. 

 I spent time on this after I read the Heart Sutra. Solodris has an amazing way of phrasing things, and he seems to have dove deep into this type of thinking, perhaps he has a way of speaking this if he has [experienced, percived? experience is closer but not right] it. 

I suggest meditation on what anything is separate of any perception which attempts to define it, knowledge of all of the perceptions and how they dependently arise might help, that's referenced in a link higher in the thread (the wise PDF for personal use, not my description of how I apply it to other beings to try and reach them), knowing how to suspend the perceptions and feel them coming on was a lot of effort, then it was none for awhile. The self lit space from which everything and nothing seem to connect and were visible in the mind...yeah, Solodris? I hope I am coming across, I have never tried to explain this before, do you have a way of saying it? I am not even sure it was "in" my mind so much as "seeing a truth" which I cannot convey well. honestly "seeing" is all wrong too, and so is "In"...

Offline Chaz

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Re: What is the cause of the impermanence?
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2018, 04:57:24 pm »
so what causes mind? (how far can this go?  :wink1: )

Probability becomes potential, potential can only exist in the form of action, and recurrence give rise to sustenance. Sustenance cause affliction (form) because of diversity. Affliction is perpetuated by sustenance-craving (feeling). Ignorance give rise to fabrications of craving (desire) because of impermanence. Mental formation prioritizes conditioned existence. Desire becomes rebirth, consciousness perceives its own existence and is therefore aware.

The wave of eternity seizes itself by cognition of one part subjected to the whole.


what spawns counciesness?

Sense skandhas and you e-contact makes object appear by mental formation, reality is mirrored in cognition. Consciousness is that which cognizes sense-impression and object. Manifested mirrored reality represents self-aware being.

But that does not speak, in any way, to loopix' question about the arising of consciousness.

Loopix:  Again study the causes for the arising for the 5 Skandhas and you will have your answer.

IOW, RTFM!

Offline Dairy Lama

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Re: What is the cause of the impermanence?
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2018, 02:45:50 am »
I think impermanence and conditionality are like two sides of the same coin.  Phenomena are impermanent because they arise in dependence on conditions, and vice versa?  Or something...  :teehee:
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream"

Offline Anemephistus

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Re: What is the cause of the impermanence?
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2018, 07:26:06 am »
Anemephistus: I understand, you're talking about existence without perceiver. Color without eyes. Sound without ears. Taste without tounge. Touch without skin. Smell without nose. Knowable truth can only exist in mirrored perception, there is no notable time passing without aggregate information.

IdleChater: Consciousness arises in dependence on phenomena. Phenomena arises in dependence on consciousness. When this ceases, that ceases.

The skandhas are empty of independent existence and arises in dependence on conditioned being. Conditional values are impermanent, hence suffering.

That's a good measure more succinct than I can be about it, yes. I mean, I still have a nose, but the smell is there either way, and it's not a smell, it's.... this is why I asked you, it's too eloquent for the way I express things thanks  :hug:

NOTE: I replaced the word simple with eloquent because the concept is eloquent and I write analyticalally which is not a simple way of expressing eloquent ideas, I apologize if I caused any offense, when I read it I did not like how I thought it might be taken, my gratitude and my respect for you sharing your expression of this language for this idea are genuine

on the other point I think Consciousness functions and interprets phenomenon based on dependently organized and arisen conditional experience, phenomenon's subjective impression is interdependent or interconnected to all things , it's ultimate "expression" has nothing to do with interpretation and exists separate of perception and consciousness. Mental phenomenon require consciousness, interdependent physical phenomenon do not, our perception of physical phenomenon is a mental phenomenon. 

We can know everything about how a car is interdependent but it can still hit us, whether we perceive this danger or not.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 08:13:54 am by Anemephistus »

Offline Dairy Lama

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Re: What is the cause of the impermanence?
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2018, 02:20:52 am »
I don't think change is quite right.  "Change" implies continuity.  Something can change but still retain a certain unchanging essence. 

I agree that "change" implies continuity, but I don't understand how it implies an unchanging essence.

I like the word "transient" best, it captures both change and impermanence.
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream"

Offline Chaz

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Re: What is the cause of the impermanence?
« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2018, 03:57:09 am »
I don't think change is quite right.  "Change" implies continuity.  Something can change but still retain a certain unchanging essence. 

I agree that "change" implies continuity, but I don't understand how it implies an unchanging essence.


I see it like an old-school cell animation.  In that, thousands of "cells", each holding a separate and distinct image, are played in succession to provide the illusion of continuity and change.  In reality one of these cells arises and almost immediately ceases.  The next image is entire new and separate from the previous.  It is only the illusion that provides change.  Actually there is no change, just the constant arising and ceasing of images.

So it is with life.

So there is niether change or changeless, just arising and cessation.

It may seem to you that this is change - one thing blending, or transitioning to the next.  It works on an intellectual level and offers a satisfactory explanation and example for impermanence.  It just doesn't work right for me.

LATER:  That didn't really address the unchanging essense.  Where I think it does, is in that the "narrative" seems to have an element of unchanging.  The players and the scenes may "change" but the narrative remains largely the same, so in effect, and to a degree, everything in it does, too.

It's the impermanence of what we percieve or what appears that is important and that isn't change.  It just ceases and is replaced by another arising.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 09:01:34 am by IdleChater »

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: What is the cause of the impermanence?
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2018, 08:24:33 pm »
Hi, Idle.

Your description of arising and ceasing is from my perspective and experience a good one to explain life processes.  It is an almost perfect description of the way things work from a modern biological sciences understanding.  Form and function are driven by genetics:  e.g. DNA makes RNA, RNA makes protein at the bio-molecular level and genotypical changes result in changes in phenotype. Higher level change is driven by ability to survive through adaptation under and in response to the influences of changing environmental variations such as temperature, pressure, climate, biome and such relationships as between predator, prey, and nutritional pressures as they evolve over time due to natural variation within ecosystems, such as geophysical changes, and climate augmentation (droughts, floods, heat waves, cooling, geological changes due to plate tectonics, astrophysical events, extinction events, and etc .  Failure of life in any given biome or ecosystem to adapt to such change results in extinction and niches being occupied by more qualified living organisms.  Proof of this is in the fact that over ninety percent of all organisms that have ever lived are now extinct.  Additional proof is in the fact that there have been many periodic mass extinction events due to astrophysical, and biological disasters.

Mass Extinction Events https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinction_event

Predator & Prey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predation

Plate Tectonics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plate_tectonics

Biomes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biome

Astrophysical Events https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transient_astronomical_event

All of these contribute to impermanence of not only life on this planet, but impermanence throughout the universe including all samsaric realms.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 08:48:53 pm by Ron-the-Elder »
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline Dairy Lama

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Re: What is the cause of the impermanence?
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2018, 04:12:16 am »
It's the impermanence of what we percieve or what appears that is important and that isn't change.  It just ceases and is replaced by another arising.

Indeed, and arising and ceasing is the nature of the aggregates, aka our experience.
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream"

Offline Chaz

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Re: What is the cause of the impermanence?
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2018, 09:20:50 am »
Many thanks, Ron.

And thanks for the science lesson, but I really think the Buddha's teachings on impermanence and suffering have anything to say about plate techtonics and that sort of thing.

Hi, Idle.

Your description of arising and ceasing is from my perspective and experience a good one to explain life processes.  It is an almost perfect description of the way things work from a modern biological sciences understanding.  Form and function are driven by genetics:  e.g. DNA makes RNA, RNA makes protein at the bio-molecular level and genotypical changes result in changes in phenotype. Higher level change is driven by ability to survive through adaptation under and in response to the influences of changing environmental variations such as temperature, pressure, climate, biome and such relationships as between predator, prey, and nutritional pressures as they evolve over time due to natural variation within ecosystems, such as geophysical changes, and climate augmentation (droughts, floods, heat waves, cooling, geological changes due to plate tectonics, astrophysical events, extinction events, and etc .  Failure of life in any given biome or ecosystem to adapt to such change results in extinction and niches being occupied by more qualified living organisms.  Proof of this is in the fact that over ninety percent of all organisms that have ever lived are now extinct.  Additional proof is in the fact that there have been many periodic mass extinction events due to astrophysical, and biological disasters.

Mass Extinction Events https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinction_event

Predator & Prey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predation

Plate Tectonics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plate_tectonics

Biomes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biome

Astrophysical Events https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transient_astronomical_event

All of these contribute to impermanence of not only life on this planet, but impermanence throughout the universe including all samsaric realms.

Offline outdoorsjp

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Re: What is the cause of the impermanence?
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2018, 12:41:00 pm »
Look at gnosticteachings.org they have tons of information on Buddhism in a series called Gnosis of Buddha Dharma. Check it out, I know it can help you all.

 


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