Author Topic: Where is Karma and how it can affect our lives?  (Read 250 times)

Offline bahman

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Where is Karma and how it can affect our lives?
« on: May 24, 2017, 06:59:52 am »
Where is Karma and how it can affect our lives?

Offline IdleChater

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Re: Where is Karma and how it can affect our lives?
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2017, 07:43:26 am »
Where is Karma and how it can affect our lives?

Karma isn't really somehwhere, liker over there or accross the streat or even everywhere.

Look at you life - that's what Karma does.

Offline bahman

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Re: Where is Karma and how it can affect our lives?
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2017, 07:27:38 am »
Where is Karma and how it can affect our lives?
Karma isn't really somehwhere, liker over there or accross the streat or even everywhere.

 That is the definition of nothing.

Look at you life - that's what Karma does.

 There is not Karma as far as I can see. There are just consequence of my actions and decisions.

Offline IdleChater

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Re: Where is Karma and how it can affect our lives?
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2017, 07:37:04 am »
Karma isn't really somehwhere, liker over there or accross the streat or even everywhere.

 That is the definition of nothing.

No, it is'nt.  I'm only saying that it has no physical place where it resides.

Quote
Look at you life - that's what Karma does.

 There is not Karma as far as I can see. There are just consequence of my actions and decisions.

That's Karma.

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Where is Karma and how it can affect our lives?
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2017, 08:40:28 am »
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bahman:  "Where is Karma and how it can affect our lives?"

Yes.  This is a confusion, because of the modern (hairy-fairy) useage of the word, which is the idea that what we do wrong will come back to haunt us in some way.

The word karma (sanskrit) or kamma (pali) simply means "intentional action".  The phrase "kamma vipakha" simply means "consequence of our intentional actions.

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"Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect."

— AN 6.63

As for where kamma is: Since kamma is an intention, it resides where all mental factors reside:  "in our mind".  Intentional action is kinetic, because it is an action as we are physically implementing our intentions and could reside where ever we act out our intentions. 

Is that clear?   :listen:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline IdleChater

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Re: Where is Karma and how it can affect our lives?
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2017, 09:18:07 am »
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bahman:  "Where is Karma and how it can affect our lives?"

Yes.  This is a confusion, because of the modern (hairy-fairy) useage of the word, which is the idea that what we do wrong will come back to haunt us in some way.

Actually, it does, in a way.

A case in point is the story of Milarepa.  He used magic to wipe out his hometown because he had been denied his inheritances and this put his once wealthy family in abject poverty.  His revenge kailled many people and obliterted the town.  He was immediately stuck with profound guilt.  This was his karma for killing all those people and wiping out the town.

Another case.  I'm moving to North Carolina, soon.  A hurricane may come and flatten my house.  This would be karma.  If I don't move to NC, there is no chance of a hurricane flattening my house.  That, too, is karma.  My brother did not get medical care and died because of that.  That was his karma.  I will most likely take rebirth as an intestinal parasite.  That, too is my karma.


Quote
The word karma (sanskrit) or kamma (pali) simply means "intentional action".  The phrase "kamma vipakha" simply means "consequence of our intentional actions.

Right-o!

« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 09:20:45 am by IdleChater »

Offline bahman

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Re: Where is Karma and how it can affect our lives?
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2017, 06:47:08 am »
Quote
bahman:  "Where is Karma and how it can affect our lives?"

Yes.  This is a confusion, because of the modern (hairy-fairy) useage of the word, which is the idea that what we do wrong will come back to haunt us in some way.

The word karma (sanskrit) or kamma (pali) simply means "intentional action".  The phrase "kamma vipakha" simply means "consequence of our intentional actions.

Quote
"Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect."

— AN 6.63

As for where kamma is: Since kamma is an intention, it resides where all mental factors reside:  "in our mind".  Intentional action is kinetic, because it is an action as we are physically implementing our intentions and could reside where ever we act out our intentions. 

Is that clear?   :listen:

 One could be a drug dealer and very rich. He has very good life. There are many bad people who have very good life. Where is Kamma?

Offline IdleChater

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Re: Where is Karma and how it can affect our lives?
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2017, 08:52:40 am »
One could be a drug dealer and very rich. He has very good life. There are many bad people who have very good life. Where is Kamma?

Are you thinking that the drug dealer should be denied a "good life"?

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Where is Karma and how it can affect our lives?
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2017, 09:19:40 am »
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bahman:  "One could be a drug dealer and very rich. He has very good life. There are many bad people who have very good life. Where is Kamma?"


Yes.  Some are very rich.  Some are killed by police, or rival drug dealer gang members.  What you and I cannot determine from our current perspective in this human realm of existence is what happens during their next rebirth.  According to what is described in The 31 Planes of Existence for those acting non-beneficially is the possibility of rebirth in the hell realms:

source for further study:  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/loka.html

This could be mythology to keep children and the ignorant in line with community norms (morals), or it could be real.  Those who commit crimes in society are usually punished when caught in some way, or their lives turn sour in some way.  Addiction is one of those consequences of drug use.  Many drug users become drug dealers in order to support their habit.  In our community we are experiencing record high deaths due to overdose.  These are simple examples of karma / kamma. :r4wheel:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline bahman

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Re: Where is Karma and how it can affect our lives?
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2017, 11:20:02 am »
One could be a drug dealer and very rich. He has very good life. There are many bad people who have very good life. Where is Kamma?

Are you thinking that the drug dealer should be denied a "good life"?

 Not really. People needs drug. You just need to become mature enough to control your desire for it. Therefore I don't think that a drug dealer should have a bad life. But lets accept the norm for a sake of argument.

Offline IdleChater

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Re: Where is Karma and how it can affect our lives?
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2017, 11:35:11 am »
But lets accept the norm for a sake of argument.

And just what would that norm be?

In my state, it's perfectly legal to sell pot.  In fact, it's a big-time industry here.

Offline bahman

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Re: Where is Karma and how it can affect our lives?
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2017, 11:37:26 am »
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bahman:  "One could be a drug dealer and very rich. He has very good life. There are many bad people who have very good life. Where is Kamma?"


Yes.  Some are very rich.  Some are killed by police, or rival drug dealer gang members.  What you and I cannot determine from our current perspective in this human realm of existence is what happens during their next rebirth.  According to what is described in The 31 Planes of Existence for those acting non-beneficially is the possibility of rebirth in the hell realms:

source for further study:  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/loka.html


 First, do you really have a proof or evidence for what you claim? Second, you have no self then the concept of rebirth is meaningless.

This could be mythology to keep children and the ignorant in line with community norms (morals), or it could be real.  Those who commit crimes in society are usually punished when caught in some way, or their lives turn sour in some way.  Addiction is one of those consequences of drug use.  Many drug users become drug dealers in order to support their habit.  In our community we are experiencing record high deaths due to overdose.  These are simple examples of karma / kamma. :r4wheel:


 All these problem get resolved if drugs were free and people were well educated.

Offline zafrogzen

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Re: Where is Karma and how it can affect our lives?
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2017, 11:56:19 am »
Ron wrote
Quote
What you and I cannot determine from our current perspective in this human realm of existence is what happens during their next rebirth.  According to what is described in The 31 Planes of Existence for those acting non-beneficially is the possibility of rebirth in the hell realms:

This could be mythology to keep children and the ignorant in line with community norms (morals), or it could be real.
Yes that is a very naive view. Not much better than the big daddy in the sky scenario. Judgements like good and evil are human preferences, not absolutes or even straightforward cause and effect.

The only view of karma that makes any sense to me is that our present five skandha movie continues to manifest in some form. But I'm skeptical of that as well. I think we all just "return" to the place from which this life arises and where we've always been (here and now) but have managed to ignore (ignorance). That's where salvation or liberation are to be found. Where else is there?

More zazen!
« Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 02:15:32 pm by zafrogzen »
My first formal meditation training was with Shunryu Suzuki in the 60's and later with Kobun, Robert Aitken and many other teachers (mainly zen). However, I've spent the most time practicing on my own, which is all I do now. I'm living in a rather isolated area so I miss connecting with other practitioners. Despite my interest in zen I've made an effort to remain secular. You can visit my website at http://www.frogzen.com

Offline IdleChater

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Re: Where is Karma and how it can affect our lives?
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2017, 03:24:39 pm »
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bahman:  "One could be a drug dealer and very rich. He has very good life. There are many bad people who have very good life. Where is Kamma?"


Yes.  Some are very rich.  Some are killed by police, or rival drug dealer gang members.  What you and I cannot determine from our current perspective in this human realm of existence is what happens during their next rebirth.  According to what is described in The 31 Planes of Existence for those acting non-beneficially is the possibility of rebirth in the hell realms:

source for further study:  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/loka.html


 First, do you really have a proof or evidence for what you claim?


No, he probably doesn't have much in the way of proof.


Quote
Second, you have no self then the concept of rebirth is meaningless.


That would be true if it was a self that is reborn. That would be a continuation of the self.  This is, explicitly, eternalism, which is something the Dharma does not teach.

Lacking the concept of self, explaining rebirth from a Buddhist POV beomes difficult.

One way to look at it, is to see our so-called existence as a series of moments driven by karma and ignorance.  Each moment can be likened to a movie film - one frame following another, similar, but separate and unique.  When we die it is the end of one frame in the strip and the beginning of another and so on. 

It seems you have a basic issue with the concept of rebirth.  That's okay.  It would be best to abandon this line of questioning and devote yourself to the actual discovery of proof which can only be found through practice and not intelectual excercise.  Out in the real world, Buddhists and their teachers spend very little time with subjects like this. There are far more imprtant things to work on, such as practice.

Quote
All these problem get resolved if drugs were free and people were well educated.


That's kind of like Vincent saying suffering will end if people stop procreating.  That may be true, theoreticlly, but people won't stop procreating.  Drugs will never be free and if things keep going as they are, education will largely end as well.

Offline philboyd

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Re: Where is Karma and how it can affect our lives?
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2017, 06:36:14 pm »
It seems to me that much of this discourse is from a materialist point of view. Buddhism is for me a vehicle for spiritual growth. I can't argue that someone is having, or should be having, a good or bad life with only superficial knowledge of him. Following the guidance set forth in the eightfold path has led to a richer, happier life for me. Kamma?  I would say yes. By richer I mean a deeper, sometimes more insightful, appreciation and understanding of myself and the way I interact with the world. Happier as a result. Kamma
« Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 07:04:00 pm by philboyd »
Peace

 


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