Author Topic: Why?  (Read 760 times)

Offline francis

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Re: Why?
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2017, 06:01:42 pm »
Perfect liberation is when one find the meaning. Moreover you are missing the truth too. You have gods/Gods in Hinduism and have no god/God in Buddhism. Which one is correct? All Buddha's teaching founded through meditation could be wrong.

Hi bahman,

By way of clarification.

The Buddha’s teachings are based on his insight into human nature and are unique amongst other belief systems because they don’t rely on blind belief in an everlasting soul, and a God or gods for salvation. Instead, the Buddha gave us the tools we need to realise truth and liberate ourselves.

What is the truth?

Hi bahman,

The truth is the Buddha invites people to test his teachings for themselves. He asks them to see if they are true, rather than blindly follow them.

This offer is well documented particularly in the famous Kalama Sutta, the Buddha's charter of free inquiry.

This is my favourite Buddha quote on testing the truth of his teachings:

Do not accept any of my words on faith,
Believing them just because I said them.
Be like an analyst buying gold, who cuts, burns,
And critically examines his product for authenticity.
Only accept what passes the test.
By proving useful and beneficial in your life.
The Buddha (Jnanasara-samuccaya)

This is probably a good time to remember the Buddha’s teachings are based on his insight into human nature, and many of his teachings, like his teaching on anatta for example, may appear counter intuitive. However to the doubters, all I can say is scientists are proving many of the Buddha’s teachings on human nature to be accurate.

 
:r4wheel:
"Enlightenment, for a wave in the ocean, is the moment the wave realises it is water." - Thich Nhat Hanh

Offline stillpointdancer

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Re: Why?
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2017, 02:34:58 am »
Yes, the truth is that the Buddha wants us to find the truth for ourselves. It's why I'm a Buddhist.
“You do not need to leave your room. Remain sitting at your table and listen. Do not even listen, simply wait, be quiet, still and solitary. The world will freely offer itself to you to be unmasked, it has no choice, it will roll in ecstasy at your feet.” Franz Kafka

Offline bahman

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Re: Why?
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2017, 09:29:25 am »
Perfect liberation is when one find the meaning. Moreover you are missing the truth too. You have gods/Gods in Hinduism and have no god/God in Buddhism. Which one is correct? All Buddha's teaching founded through meditation could be wrong.

Hi bahman,

By way of clarification.

The Buddha’s teachings are based on his insight into human nature and are unique amongst other belief systems because they don’t rely on blind belief in an everlasting soul, and a God or gods for salvation. Instead, the Buddha gave us the tools we need to realise truth and liberate ourselves.

What is the truth?

Hi bahman,

The truth is the Buddha invites people to test his teachings for themselves. He asks them to see if they are true, rather than blindly follow them.

This offer is well documented particularly in the famous Kalama Sutta, the Buddha's charter of free inquiry.

This is my favourite Buddha quote on testing the truth of his teachings:

Do not accept any of my words on faith,
Believing them just because I said them.
Be like an analyst buying gold, who cuts, burns,
And critically examines his product for authenticity.
Only accept what passes the test.
By proving useful and beneficial in your life.
The Buddha (Jnanasara-samuccaya)

This is probably a good time to remember the Buddha’s teachings are based on his insight into human nature, and many of his teachings, like his teaching on anatta for example, may appear counter intuitive. However to the doubters, all I can say is scientists are proving many of the Buddha’s teachings on human nature to be accurate.

 
:r4wheel:

 That is all good and dandy. He however offered a prescription namely meditation as a useful tool to find the truth. My main question is if meditation is a useful tool for finding the truth then why Hinduism is different from Buddhism?

Online IdleChater

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Re: Why?
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2017, 09:38:59 am »

 That is all good and dandy. He however offered a prescription namely meditation as a useful tool to find the truth. My main question is if meditation is a useful tool for finding the truth then why Hinduism is different from Buddhism?

In terms of the fruition of Buddhist practice, meditation is, IMHO, the ONLY tool to find the truth.

As far as the importance of meditation in Hinduism and Buddhism goes there is a lot of similarity.  The biggest differences lie in the stance on self.

Offline pureleaf

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Re: Why?
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2017, 09:45:01 am »
Meditation is calm focus, in order to contemplate the truth, as you understand it.
So understanding the teaching is necessary.

You must understand the self is an addition to selfless body, mind, etc.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2017, 09:48:41 am by pureleaf »

Offline bahman

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Re: Why?
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2017, 11:42:05 am »

 That is all good and dandy. He however offered a prescription namely meditation as a useful tool to find the truth. My main question is if meditation is a useful tool for finding the truth then why Hinduism is different from Buddhism?

In terms of the fruition of Buddhist practice, meditation is, IMHO, the ONLY tool to find the truth.

 Then why you accept the no-self through meditation? Hinduist believe differently.

As far as the importance of meditation in Hinduism and Buddhism goes there is a lot of similarity.  The biggest differences lie in the stance on self.

 Yes, and that is the problem, self.

Offline bahman

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Re: Why?
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2017, 11:48:30 am »
Meditation is calm focus, in order to contemplate the truth, as you understand it.
So understanding the teaching is necessary.

You must understand the self is an addition to selfless body, mind, etc.


 What do you mean (with Italic part)?

Offline pureleaf

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Re: Why?
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2017, 12:06:00 pm »
Well you think someone is watching you…
and discover no one is in the room…

Offline bahman

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Re: Why?
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2017, 12:36:33 pm »


Well you think someone is watching you…
and discover no one is in the room…



 Well, you cannot watch yourself unless you have a reflector, your body and what is surrounding you. Therefore, you cannot experience your self no matter how deep you go in the meditation. That could be true.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2017, 12:38:44 pm by bahman »

Offline pureleaf

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Re: Why?
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2017, 12:48:46 pm »
Since everyone says "you," it seems there is a you.

The teaching is contrary to how it seems
« Last Edit: May 07, 2017, 12:50:47 pm by pureleaf »

Offline bahman

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Re: Why?
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2017, 12:58:48 pm »
Since everyone says "you," it seems there is a you.

The teaching is contrary to how it seems


 That could be true too.

Online IdleChater

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Re: Why?
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2017, 08:23:00 pm »

 That is all good and dandy. He however offered a prescription namely meditation as a useful tool to find the truth. My main question is if meditation is a useful tool for finding the truth then why Hinduism is different from Buddhism?

In terms of the fruition of Buddhist practice, meditation is, IMHO, the ONLY tool to find the truth.

 Then why you accept the no-self through meditation? Hinduist believe differently.

Others do not inform my beliefs.

Offline francis

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Re: Why?
« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2017, 02:51:34 am »
That is all good and dandy. He however offered a prescription namely meditation as a useful tool to find the truth. My main question is if meditation is a useful tool for finding the truth then why Hinduism is different from Buddhism?

Hi bahman,

I have already answered most of those questions, but let’s break it down.

He however offered a prescription namely meditation as a useful tool to find the truth.

The Buddha is often called the doctor because he offered many prescriptions in the suttas. First he would listen to a problem, make a diagnosis and offer a prescription for  the problem. 

As said previously,

The Buddha's teachings are founded on understanding the Four Noble Truths and following the Noble Eightfold Path leading to liberation. The Noble Eightfold Path is sometimes broken into three divisions: Ethical Conduct, Mental Discipline (meditation) and Wisdom.

So while mediation is an important part of Buddhism, it is not the whole of Buddhism. All the elements of the Noble Eightfold Path should be practiced together as they all are linked together, and practicing each one helps develop others. This is why the Noble Eightfold Path is sometimes represented as a wheel.

The three mental disciplines are Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, and Right Concentration.

Right Mindfulness is traditionally the practice of mindfulness of breathing meditation (anapanasati) for both mental calm (samatha) and insight and (vipassana).

Right Concentration (samadhi) is practicing the first four stages of jhana (dhyana) meditation.

My main question is if meditation is a useful tool for finding the truth then why Hinduism is different from Buddhism?

Firstly, what do you mean by Hinduism? Hinduism is a name for many different practices.
Secondly, I don’t know anything about Hindu meditation. So,
Thirdly, there are many forms of meditation, what do you mean by Hindu meditation?

From the Buddha’s perspective he had two great meditation teachers, first Alara Kalama and then Udaka Ramaputta. When he mastered their skills he moved on because he was not satisfied he had learn enough. 

From there, he practiced with the ascetics and nearly starved to death final collapsing under Bo-tree. He was revived with food given to him by a villager named Sujata. Then he decided to sit, until he discovered the path to liberation. While sitting he remembered a moment from his childhood and reached a jhana state of meditation. Then he realised it was the right path to awakening, and so on.

why Hinduism is different from Buddhism?

To reiterate, the Buddha’s teachings are based on his insight into human nature and are unique among other belief systems because they don’t rely on blind belief in an everlasting soul, and a God or gods for salvation. So there is no reincarnation in Buddhism. Instead, the Buddha gave us the tools we need to realise truth and liberation for ourselves (4NT and N8FP).

The Buddha also taught anatta, that is, we are empty of self (anatta) and what we call “self” is comprised of nothing more than the five aggregates (khandhas/skandhas). It’s the five aggregates working seamlessly together that create the illusions of a "self". Attachment to this so-called “self” is the cause of all the worlds suffering.

I hope that finally answers your questions.


:r4wheel:
« Last Edit: May 08, 2017, 03:44:02 am by francis, Reason: clarity »
"Enlightenment, for a wave in the ocean, is the moment the wave realises it is water." - Thich Nhat Hanh

Offline stillpointdancer

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Re: Why?
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2017, 01:05:33 am »
The more I compare meditation in Buddhism to meditation in other religions and even when there is no religion, the more I understand what the Buddha taught. Anyone can meditate, but can they meditate in a context that will bring about the kind of understanding the Buddha showed us? Conditions for insight need to be right, and so too does the ability to interpret the aftermath of insight. Hopefully this helps answer bahman's question.
“You do not need to leave your room. Remain sitting at your table and listen. Do not even listen, simply wait, be quiet, still and solitary. The world will freely offer itself to you to be unmasked, it has no choice, it will roll in ecstasy at your feet.” Franz Kafka

Offline Rahul

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Re: Why?
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2017, 12:52:41 am »
Well, you cannot watch yourself unless you have a reflector, your body and what is surrounding you. Therefore, you cannot experience your self no matter how deep you go in the meditation. That could be true.
That would be too big a claim to be made by any of us who do not meditate, or haven't meditated deep enough.

Regarding your question about differences between Hinduism and Buddhism:

  • The core philosophy of both of these religions is strikingly similar: rebirth/cycle of birth, nirvana or moksh as the ultimate goal, meditative practices as tools etc.
  • However, Hinduism consider 4 vedas to be their core scriptures, which are written in highly literary poetic style, open to interpretation, difficult to understand, have no verifiable author.
  • Buddhism doesn't recognize the authority of the 4 vedas, refrains from writing books in literary vague poetic open to interpretation style and prefers writing in plain language, easily understandable, and come from Buddha's own experience. For your kind information, in ancient India there were two groups of languages: the Sanskrit (the language of the high class, used by the elites), and Prakrit, Pali etc. languages of the common men, less sophisticated. While Hindu authors chose Sanskrit (the language of the elites) for their literature, Buddha chose the language of the common men - Pali - for his discourses.
  • Hinduism gives lots of importance to gods, goddesses, is full of mythology, rife with rites and rituals. Original Buddhism was totally against any rite/rituals, had no mythology, advised not going into worshipping gods and goddesses, emphasized on virtue and contemplation.
  • Hinduism believes in 'atma' (soul) or an eternal self, Buddhism denies it.
  • Hinduism emphasized on caste-system, Buddhism rejected the idea of segregating the society in castes and considering some castes superior/inferior.
  • Hinduism believes that the ultimate goal - moksha - (exactly same as nirvana) is possible by means other than meditation such as total unconditional devotion to a god/goddess. Buddhism doesn't elaborate on any means other than the eightfold path which combines virtues and meditation.
  • In both religions priests (in Hinduism)/monks (in Buddhism) are traditionally charged with studying the scriptures, interpreting the scriptures, giving discourses and propagating the religion.
  • But Hindu priests are mostly householders, and make a living by administering rites/rituals, and due to their self-interest (income) have abused the religion consistently. Buddhist monks, on the other hand, have traditionally stayed away from rites/rituals, take a vow to live life of poverty and beg for food, abandon their household and live rather disciplined, strict life.
  • In Hinduism, brahmins do study palmistry, study astronomy, predict futures, make calendars with details of auspicious and ominous days/hours of the days etc. Interpret positions of starts and its impact on fortune and behaviour of people and a dozen such arts.
  • Buddha described all such fields as palmistry, interpretation of constellations positions etc. as 'animal art'. He severely criticized these practices and advised people not to indulge/believe in these.
  • Hindu brahmins were considered the children of the creator (the Brahma), were given highest position, were regarded as having divine powers of blessing/cursing people, and they enjoyed great command over society. Buddha rejected the claims of brahmins, didn't recognize their 'divine' powers, and insisted that monks must live life of poverty and celibacy.
Fundamentally, Buddha rejected the core books of Hinduism, criticized the Hindu brahmins of abusing the religion and indulging in 'animal arts', rejected the social system of segregating people in superior/inferior castes (i.e. didn't recognize high social status of brahmins/warriors and brought them to the same level as laymen - shoemakers, farmers, laborers,), strongly criticized making money on the name of religion, advised people not to accept the 'divine powers' of brahmins...

This fundamentally created an atmosphere where the strongest class of the ancient India, the Brahmins, were about to lose their wealth, power, status, everything. For centuries, both sides were competing for royal support. At some point, Buddhism became the prevalent religion in India. Eventually, the Brahmins managed to wipe out Buddhism from India and establish their dominance.

Thus, both religions have the same/similar core philosophy, but Buddhism is more practical and logical. Both religions were at odds with each other. Despite having originated from India, today less than 0.8% population of India is following Buddhism.

 


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