Author Topic: re: Proliferation of simplicity / Cessation of complexity  (Read 5402 times)

Offline ground

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Re: re: Proliferation of simplicity / Cessation of complexity
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2017, 01:56:44 am »
It is fascinating that you proliferate a belief that is unique, while at the same time heavily dependent on Buddhist teachings. Creating a you and other by deprecating the very philosophy you have structured your reality on.
No belief, no philosophy, no dependence, no reality.

Empty of everything and nothing.  :fu:

That's  really clever. 
Suchness, i.e. simplicity, doesn't know 'clever'.  :fu:

How would you know?  You haven't achieved it.

What is 'you'? What is 'achieve'?

Offline ground

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Re: re: Proliferation of simplicity / Cessation of complexity
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2017, 02:00:32 am »
Isn't it fascinating how that which is utterly simple has an inherent urge to proliferate into complexity?

If one does not trace back complexity to its source how can there ever be what the theravadins call 'nibbida' and 'virago'?

Empty of everything and nothing.
  :fu:

In simplicity thoughts and perceptions are useless. They are the manifestations of the inherent urge which does not know. Being useless they are negative repelling any contact (phassa). Repelling any contact they leave no trace.

Utter boundless equanimity.

Once tasted the urge to proliferate ceases since knowing has taken its place.  :fu:
Emptiness births fascination?
It is fascinating that you proliferate a belief that is unique, while at the same time heavily dependent on Buddhist teachings. Creating a you and other by deprecating the very philosophy you have structured your reality on.
No belief, no philosophy, no dependence, no reality.

Empty of everything and nothing.  :fu:

Emptiness births many phenomena ... phenomena like bliss, murder, car and tree. There is nothing that is not born from emptiness. Perceptions, thoughts ... these words. Spontaneously present in absence.  :fu:

Offline philboyd

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Re: re: Proliferation of simplicity / Cessation of complexity
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2017, 02:59:20 am »
I agree, let's not forget belief, philosophy, dependence, and personality. Parrots too.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2017, 03:41:50 am by philboyd »
Peace

Offline ground

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Re: re: Proliferation of simplicity / Cessation of complexity
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2017, 04:21:29 am »
All phenomena are useless fabrications. Emptiness is empty of self and other, empty of everything and nothing.

Simplicity is the nature of nibbida and viraga.  :fu:


« Last Edit: October 08, 2017, 04:26:11 am by ground »

Offline ground

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Re: re: Proliferation of simplicity / Cessation of complexity
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2017, 09:14:06 pm »
Now, as far as nibbida is concerned, it may be stained by subtle kind of aversion. That is why it is sometimes translated as 'aversion, or 'weariness' regarding perceptions and thoughts.
But this aversion is simply the result of a failure of rational analysis, a lack of insight which results in not seeing the emptiness of perceptions and thoughts directly. Because if emptiness is seen directly emptiness, nibbida and viraga (dispassion) are actually inseparably one negative phenomenon where 'negative' implies the absence of what has ceased and the transformation of the ground of ordinary existence into the ground of being.

Thus the simplicity/suchness of the uselessness of perceptions and thoughts is accessed through temporary excursion into the complexity of applied perceptions and rational thoughts. What is important whowever is that any meditation has to be avoided. Meditation is a fetter.  :fu:

Offline Pixie

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May all beings have happiness and the causes of happiness.
May they all be free from suffering and the causes of suffering.
May they never be deprived of true happiness devoid of any suffering.
May they abide in great impartiality, free from attachment to loved ones and aversion to others.

Offline ground

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Re: re: Proliferation of simplicity / Cessation of complexity
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2017, 02:16:02 am »
I've been wondering what name would apply best for liberation through simplicity.

It's certainly a kind of nihilism to dissolve the whole display of all the khandhas in emptiness.

Simplicity = suchness = notionlessness.

But since there is not the least notion there isn't even the slightest negation either.

Neither thingness nor nothingness.

No notion applies.




See how the proliferation into complexity works? :fu:
« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 02:18:22 am by ground »

Offline Chaz

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Re: re: Proliferation of simplicity / Cessation of complexity
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2017, 03:04:58 am »
I've been wondering what name would apply best for liberation through simplicity.

Seeing is there can be no true liberation, the kind of liberation that the Buddha taught, through "simplicity", to find a word for it, apart from b________t,  would be an excercise in futility.


Quote
It's certainly a kind of nihilism to dissolve the whole display of all the khandhas in emptiness.

wibble.  wibble, wibble.  wibble.



Quote
Simplicity = suchness = notionlessness.

Simplicity != Suchness.  notionlessness = making s__t up to impress newbs.


Offline ground

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Re: re: Proliferation of simplicity / Cessation of complexity
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2017, 10:58:35 pm »
Now I tell you about dependent cessation,
listen, ignore or reject ...

When perceptions and thoughts are known as useless and misleading,
interest in perceptions and thoughts ceases.
When interest in perceptions and thoughts ceases,
contact ceases.
When contact ceases and the six consciousnesses are relaxed,
perceptions and thoughts cease.
When perceptions and thoughts cease,
the empirical world collapses.
When the empirical world collapses,
times ceases.
When time ceases,
there is no more becoming or change or transition or causality,
there is neither desire, nor form, nor formless,
nor self nor other,
nor somethingness, nor nothingness.
Mere notionlessness without limit or center,
the ground of being which is complete cessation,
lucid and empty.

 :fu:

Offline ground

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Re: re: Proliferation of simplicity / Cessation of complexity
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2017, 01:53:51 am »
This complete cessation, the ground of being,
is the source of everything and nothing.
To speak of liberation is inadequate
because when this ground has revealed itself
nothing and nobody can be liberated.
All thoughts and perceptions that may arise in the aftermath
are without thinker or perceiver
but simply are the arising of that ground
in and as diversity.
Plain and simple.

 :fu:

Offline ground

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Re: re: Proliferation of simplicity / Cessation of complexity
« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2017, 11:28:03 pm »
Having said that
what's the use of saying 'ground of being' or 'source'?
Since nothing has ever existed as ground of being or source
these are simply totally useless thoughts.
Plain and simple.

 :fu:

Offline ground

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Re: re: Proliferation of simplicity / Cessation of complexity
« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2017, 11:15:51 pm »
Sun withdrawn to let
darkness win before it is
dispelled by bright snow.

 :fu:

Offline Anemephistus

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Re: re: Proliferation of simplicity / Cessation of complexity
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2017, 08:38:19 am »
If we are master builders, then say we build a bookshelf. We use our saw, our hammer, our drills and our measures and many other tools and our knowledge of how to best apply them. When we are done we place our shelf and we put our tools away. We do not need to hammer a shelf that is completed!

 If we have built a good shelf other builders see it and wish to build one as skillfully, we describe our process to them if they inquire about how we achieved things they have struggled with in a way which demonstrates our understanding of the process. How we jointed the wood, how we used the features of the shelf to hide the nails and the screws, how we placed a finish on it which is smooth and desirable. The explanation we give is clear because our understanding of how we built the bookshelf is complete, we could explain it completely and without theory, and we could even share it with children and demonstrate it with ease to those who have no knowledge of building because we fully understand the intricacies of the process. 

There would be no need to insult the tools those who inquire own, that would be rude and cause frustration, this would be obvious, because the difficulty in mastering the building of things is memorable to us. It would not be the arrogance of what we know how to do being "better", it would be the value of experience we would share in order to help others out of compassion for the fully developed understanding of how difficult it is to master the techniques we use.   We could suggest what tools have worked for us and show them to those who own tools we feel will not get them the same results. Since we have a fully developed understanding of why these tools are not as good, because we have used tools that did not work, we could objectively explain in detail and without only inference as to the exact nature of the objective and qualitative differences.  And since we have mastered our art, we can recognize when others pose points about how  to build something in a different way with the same results that the outcome may be the same without having any ego attached to their method because we are secure in our own.

I have never personally known a Zen "Master", or any Buddhist "master" as far as I am aware. But I have known a couple of master woodworkers who produced art on a level that took them a lifetime to develop. They, on the point of their art were strikingly patient and put many things into practice when others of their craft suggested methods, they were open, and helpful.  This is what mastery looks like regardless of craft.

Imagine a book, full of woodworking instructions written by a self reported master who ends every thought with a reminder that he feels he is a master, focused only on what he feels are all of the wrong techniques, leaving ambiguous the exact nature of what is supposed to be done in practice and especially why it should be done in the way he described but instead offers only pictures of his finished products. So instead the book explains many of the classic methods briefly, and says they are wrong based on realizations about the nature of the wood, but the experience of the other workers is such that the information seems incorrect. So they ask the author to explain in detail, and all he gives is a few references that seem unconnected and treats the explanation as though it is fully satisfactory and those with the questions as though it is their fault they do not understand. He has given nothing at that point, because however good he thinks the explanation is, the students are left ignorant and he has handed down a complete lack of any technique. Which might be worse than handing down a bad technique

I have no doubt that you have developed some insights, I have not always been at odds with your logic and have a few times even been impressed by your thoughts, but you claim the whole of the Pali Canon has victimized Buddhists and that everything can be placed in a few sentences. Alright, in a complete, non theoretical way please, explain in your life how the realization of emptiness has provided you with complete freedom from suffering. Are you a being who, finding no value in the Pali Canon has achieved liberation from suffering and if so under what circumstances do live and work and survive? Has this ability skipped compassion for other beings? Is it unworthy of your time to fully discourse and disclose the breadth of what you are saying in enough detail that it might be accepted? Or have you jumped around many important lessons and found realizations, that while they may be true have not fully freed you from Samsara.   

I have had no fear in providing examples of my life, livelihood and even details of my practice and family. These personal things are provided because a person can claim anything they like, especially when they answer everything with a few  philosophical quips and let it sit there. The foundation of the teachings of an entire canon, all of the Sutta's it provides, you have implied you know better in some way . If you are correct then you can express it, start from the top, with a full discourse of the experiences and realizations which are relevant. I would also like to know how the teaching condensed to a few thoughts will free all living beings and how the wheel of the Dharma will turn with only a few lines. Please, use plain language, because hiding knowledge of the truth behind difficult phrasing is evasive and gives the impression you have no idea what you are talking about. Masters who have written books use plain language though they certainly understand many things, I am sure with full understanding you can do the same.

"The pali canon and all other budddhist texts can and should be reduced to a set of only a few sentences since buddhism can and should be reduced to simplicity which is suchness."

You have provided explicit assertions so please provide those lines exactly, in addition to a full description of the path that leads to accepting them since the Buddha who provided such a path included far more than a few lines and you have asserted that should be fixed. Please, keep in mind, the purpose of freeing all living beings from suffering and Samsara, which the canon you have listed is central to but which you have asserted should be reduced.

You have said "Thoughts and perceptions are useless "

Are you are typing without thinking, or accepting that others are only going to uselessly perceive what you are saying, which would mean there is no purpose in you sharing any of this? If not Then one must assume you have a purpose in sharing all of this. Since you must have a purpose, and it does not seem to be coming across very well try giving a plain language and full discourse.

To be honest I expect a few lines, a couple of quotes from my post which you can leverage some logic against, and to be treated as though I do not understand something or other and some flowery language followed by a Fu man wisdom signature implying you are above all of this. There may even be a personal insult, I saw that the other day from you, using someones problems to make an argument ad hominem in order to discredit them. You included link, it was mean and included no actual substance against the point they made.

You can act clever, then ask what clever is and talk about how irrelevant clever is all day, the ultimate truth of emptiness will always provide a Castle to which you can retreat pointing out the irrelevance inherent in any debate. But if recognition of emptiness is not enough to stop typing then it is not just a tool to use when others type as well and do not agree with you . You are claiming via the implication of knowing what to do with a canon to fully understand a very large scale subject and have called Buddhists who find meaning in that canon victims of it. If I take you at your word and you are correct then fully convey how, without evading or undermining the question, Because I work with liars and those who thrive on frustration and anger all day, and I work with con-men and narcissists all day, and I work with intellectuals who can build a conclusion, but are still very ill because while there logic is sound they fail to account for the truth of where it has taken them.

 If your purpose is to convey an important truth and you have mastered it then fully explain its relevance, feel free to walk me through it slow and explain the logic, if you have not mastered it but claim it as a fact of what should be, then you are insulting the teachings of an entire cannon out of ego and expect the universe to change and meet your expectations. If you claim the medium we use to communicate is irrelevant  and you believe that then you would not be using it. If you exploit terms to leverage logic against them without a full explanation then you are invested in their subjective nature and nothing you have said is really how you feel. And if you offer a personal insult to me for my request then I can assume you have no answer.




Offline ground

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Re: re: Proliferation of simplicity / Cessation of complexity
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2017, 11:13:44 pm »
Frosty morning air
covering snowy surface -
immersed in darkness.

 :fu:

Offline Chaz

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Re: re: Proliferation of simplicity / Cessation of complexity
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2017, 12:36:54 pm »

 


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