Author Topic: The Trouble With "Refuge"; The Problem With "Sangha"  (Read 788 times)

Offline landis

  • Member
  • Posts: 87
    • View Profile
Re: The Trouble With "Refuge"; The Problem With "Sangha"
« Reply #30 on: November 10, 2011, 11:39:40 pm »
From Refuge by Thanissaro Bhikkhu: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/refuge.html#goi
Quote
The act of going for refuge marks the point where one commits oneself to taking the Dhamma, or the Buddha's teaching, as the primary guide to one's life....

Buddhism is not a theistic religion — the Buddha is not a god — and so a person taking refuge in the Buddhist sense is not asking for the Buddha personally to intervene to provide protection. Still, one of the Buddha's central teachings is that human life is fraught with dangers — from greed, anger, and delusion — and so the concept of refuge is central to the path of practice, in that the practice is aimed at gaining release from those dangers. Because the mind is the source both of the dangers and of release, there is a need for two levels of refuge: external refuges, which provide models and guidelines so that we can identify which qualities in the mind lead to danger and which to release; and internal refuges, i.e., the qualities leading to release that we develop in our own mind in imitation of our external models. The internal level is where true refuge is found....

When a Buddhist takes refuge, it is essentially an act of taking refuge in the doctrine of karma: It's an act of submission in that one is committed to living in line with the principle that actions based on skillful intentions lead to happiness, while actions based on unskillful intentions lead to suffering; it's an act of claiming protection in that, by following the teaching, one hopes to avoid the misfortunes that bad karma engenders. To take refuge in this way ultimately means to take refuge in the quality of our own intentions, for that's where the essence of karma lies....

The word Sangha, on the external level, has two senses: conventional and ideal. In its ideal sense, the Sangha consists of all people, lay or ordained, who have practiced the Dhamma to the point of gaining at least a glimpse of the Deathless. In a conventional sense, Sangha denotes the communities of ordained monks and nuns. The two meanings overlap but are not necessarily identical. Some members of the ideal Sangha are not ordained; some monks and nuns have yet to touch the Deathless. All those who take refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha become members of the Buddha's four-fold assembly (parisa) of followers: monks, nuns, male lay devotees, and female lay devotees. Although there's a widespread belief that all Buddhist followers are members of the Sangha, this is not the case. Only those who are ordained are members of the conventional Sangha; only those who have glimpsed the Deathless are members of the ideal Sangha. Nevertheless, any followers who don't belong to the Sangha in either sense of the word still count as genuine Buddhists in that they are members of the Buddha's parisa.

When taking refuge in the external Sangha, one takes refuge in both senses of the Sangha, but the two senses provide different levels of refuge. The conventional Sangha has helped keep the teaching alive for more than 2,500 years. Without them, we would never have learned what the Buddha taught. However, not all members of the conventional Sangha are reliable models of behavior. So when looking for guidance in the conduct of our lives, we must look to the living and recorded examples provided by the ideal Sangha. Without their example, we would not know (1) that Awakening is available to all, and not just to the Buddha; and (2) how Awakening expresses itself in real life.

On the internal level, the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha are the skillful qualities we develop in our own minds in imitation of our external models. For instance, the Buddha was a person of wisdom, purity, and compassion. When we develop wisdom, purity, and compassion in our own minds, they form our refuge on an internal level. The Buddha tasted Awakening by developing conviction, persistence, mindfulness, concentration, and discernment. When we develop these same qualities to the point of attaining Awakening too, that Awakening is our ultimate refuge. This is the point where the three aspects of the Triple Gem become one: beyond the reach of greed, anger, and delusion, and thus totally secure.

OP's emphases
Like a rock,
like a planet,
like a f**king atom bomb,
I'll remain unperturbed by the joy and the
madness
that I encounter everywhere I turn
I've seen it all before
in books and magazines
like a twitch before dying
like a pornographic sea
there's a flower behind the window
there's an ugly laughing man
like a hummingbird in silence
like the blood on my door
it's the generator
oh yeah, oh yeah, like the blood on my door
wash me clean and I will run
until I reach the shore
I've known it all along
like the bone under my skin
like actors in a photograph
like paper in the wind
there's a hammer by the window
there's a knife on the floor
like turbines in darkness
like the blood on my door
it's the generator
-Bad Religion, Generator

Offline Hanzze

  • Member
  • Posts: 1406
    • View Profile
Re: The Trouble With "Refuge"; The Problem With "Sangha"
« Reply #31 on: November 10, 2011, 11:54:52 pm »
Quote
Although there's a widespread belief that all Buddhist followers are members of the Sangha, this is not the case. Only those who are ordained are members of the conventional Sangha
I would not agree on that. *smile* Rather I would say that there are even more members of the Sangha be found in people who never have even heard about Buddha Dharma and official ordination. Even the ideal Sangha can be found there, today more often as in the official Sangha.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2011, 11:56:33 pm by Hanzze »
- - - - - - - - - - - Don't   worry,   it's   just   a   reflection.   Nothing   real.   If   smiling   it   will   be   a   smile. - - - - - - - - - - -
Googlyana Mindfulness practicing
Hate (dosa)...............................................................Greed...........................................................Color
Angry......................................................................smitten.............................................................red
Cynically(high-spirited)...........................................arrogating (claiming)....................................orange
apologetically...........................................................suppliantly.........................................................pink
Shyly.........................................................................sad.................................................................green
Off - Topic..................................................................=....................................................................blue
participating since  2011-12-06


Offline Amulet

  • Member
  • Posts: 6
  • Author of Thai Occult & Buddhist Publications
    • View Profile
Re: The Trouble With "Refuge"; The Problem With "Sangha"
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2012, 02:43:39 am »
Having experienced difficulty with refuge for more than 2 decades as a European Buddhist, and ten years in Thailand (part of which time ordained as a Bhikkhu and living in forest cave), and seen so many Monks behave terribly and so much confusion in the Sangha, that i would have problems when i got to 'Sangkang Saranang Kajchaami' (refuge in Sangha)

It was only later in deep insight that i realized that when i take refuge in Sangha, and erect the intention and intensify how much i mean it and am aware of the meaning it in my prayers (use 1st and 2nd Jhana samadhi to intensify the reality of the act of refuge) - if i think of the 'sommutti sangha' (imaginary Sangha - the ordained community), then i didnt feel that i was able to really mean it

After Vipassana took me to understand what is the stream entry, and what it is that differs inside the heart of a Human who has attained stream entry and one who has not yet attained it, i began to realize that the word 'Sangha' does not mean the ordained community, rather, it means all the beings now and in the past who have shed the asavas at least to sotapanna stage of stream entry, and those who have gone further - all the beings who have truly performed acts of renunciation and diligence to become super-human (for me its super natural to overcome ones innate impure nature and the most difficult meritorious attainment of efforts of all humans and devas)

So now when i take refuge, i stp with each line and make it clear in my head and heart and 'feel it' make it real and ask myself alone in the court room of my head 'am i just blindly repeating? or will i really mean it? am i really intending to connect my mind with the Buddhas? or am i chanting empty words?

Do i feel it? do i just wish i could feel something?
When i do it and get prana and goosebumps and Piti, then i know i am meaning it and taking refuge in the trple gem with proper understanding
1. do i believe in the Buddhas existence, his enlightenment and attainments? YES
2. Do i believe that the Dhamma was, is and always will be applicable to all reality? and that it is what relieves me and guides me in life? and thus is my protection and alleviation of sufferings YES
3. Do i believe that there have been beings who have attained the state of purity and become like Buddhas or angels or worthy of reverence for their great efforts and selfless attainments of difficult practice? and that there have truly been some beings somewhere that attained stream entry or Buddhahood? YES i do i am certain of it

So these are the 'Sangha' i take refuge in
they may be scaly humanoids from another galaxy, or may be some medieval historical character, or maybe even a Brahma who never was born on earth, or maybe a human.. it doesn't matter. Noble Beings are not only Human.

Once one has a deep understanding of what the Sangha Means, has true conviction in the Buddhas Enlightenment, and has faith based on practical experience in the perfection of the natural cosmic laws of the Dhamma, then we can begin to take MANIFEST Refuge inside our hearts with will power, one pointed focus and an open heart.

Those who do this know the meaning of refuge. Those who do not yet, are still reciting words without the hearts involvement
You have to get involved with it within yourself. Don't worry about the outer trimmings or if someone else does well or if they see your progress.. that wont help you
Turn within and know that you are the only witness to your thoughts and feelings, and that you are the cleaner who must sweep your house, nobody else
พุทโธๆๆๆ

Offline Hanzze

  • Member
  • Posts: 1406
    • View Profile
Re: The Trouble With "Refuge"; The Problem With "Sangha"
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2012, 06:23:08 am »
There are people (mainly from organized traditions) who on on hand denied that the first person (who is on the way to the first fruit), have to be included when speaking of Sangha.
And there are other people (mainly from organized traditions) who say that the first person is also no more a puthujjana (worldling) and turn the line there.

As far as I can see, there is no sharp line by attainments but if one likes to draw a line between sangha and not-sangha, from my view, there is just the intention which can be counted and this is very relative.

The danger in making Sangha equal with peoples of attainings, is that one will easy miss to forget on the physical support and in this way he would be cut of. Refuge is not only a matter of mental support and to think (especial if one is not 100% free from the dept of gratitude) this physical support needs no gratitude and is nothing that is not made by ones own merits could be often the reason why one might come to an end of his physical possibility to finish the way, even get not a little support on his spiritual way or needs to twist of the right livelihood and makes even Dhamma - deals.
- - - - - - - - - - - Don't   worry,   it's   just   a   reflection.   Nothing   real.   If   smiling   it   will   be   a   smile. - - - - - - - - - - -
Googlyana Mindfulness practicing
Hate (dosa)...............................................................Greed...........................................................Color
Angry......................................................................smitten.............................................................red
Cynically(high-spirited)...........................................arrogating (claiming)....................................orange
apologetically...........................................................suppliantly.........................................................pink
Shyly.........................................................................sad.................................................................green
Off - Topic..................................................................=....................................................................blue
participating since  2011-12-06


 


SimplePortal 2.3.3 © 2008-2010, SimplePortal