Author Topic: Grasping - Chogyam Trungpa  (Read 3924 times)

Offline edgeoftheboard

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Grasping - Chogyam Trungpa
« on: January 25, 2013, 06:44:57 pm »
I realise this teacher is sometimes controversial, but I found the following reference recently and it's interesting to contemplate...

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S: Everybody seems to have different interpretations or opinions as to what you feel about drug addiction or alcoholism in relation to the Buddhist path. Can you relate drug use or heavy drinking to bardo experience?

TR: Well, it seems to be connected with the idea of reality, what is real and what is not real. Everybody tries to find what is real, using all sorts of methods, all sorts of ways. A person may discover it by using alcohol or by using drugs, but then you want to make sure that discovery of reality is really definite, 100% definite. So you go on and on and on. Then somehow, a sort of greediness takes over from your discovery at the beginning, and the whole thing becomes destructive and distorting.

This happens constantly with any kind of experience of life. At the beginning, there's a relationship; but if you try to take advantage of that relationship in a heavy-handed way, you lose the relationship absolutely, completely. That relationship becomes a destructive one rather than a good one. It's a question of whether the experience could be kept an actual experience without trying to magnify it. At a certain stage, you begin to forget that the situation that the usage is not pure experience alone; it begins to become a built-up situation that you require. And then there will be conflict.
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http://www.beezone.com/Trungpa/transcendingmadness/transcendingmadness2.html

Offline former monk john

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Re: Grasping - Chogyam Trungpa
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2013, 06:51:17 am »
I'm sorry but isn't this kinda like asking Lance Armstrong why we shouldn't dope cycling??
to me, the signs of a successful practice are happiness and a cessation of suffering, buddhism often gives me this; not all the answers.

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Re: Grasping - Chogyam Trungpa
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2013, 09:01:25 am »
I'm sorry but isn't this kinda like asking Lance Armstrong why we shouldn't dope cycling??

Apart from the irony, is there something wrong with what the Vidyadhara said?

Offline former monk john

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Re: Grasping - Chogyam Trungpa
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2013, 01:15:03 pm »
I think Lance Armstrong is saying we shouldn't dope cycling, too!!

I don't buy into this "Do as I say, not as I do" stuff very much.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2013, 01:17:47 pm by former monk john »
to me, the signs of a successful practice are happiness and a cessation of suffering, buddhism often gives me this; not all the answers.

Offline edgeoftheboard

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Re: Grasping - Chogyam Trungpa
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2013, 01:40:57 pm »
It's interesting...I don't see anything in that reading about what one should or shouldn't do!

I relate to the way the Chogyam describes the process, experiencing and then grasping until it becomes destructive.

Offline david.mcclelland843

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Re: Grasping - Chogyam Trungpa
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2014, 12:12:07 pm »
Fascinating that someone with so much self knowledge combined with an encyclopedic knowledge of the dharma, still couldn't overcome his own addiction.  If that doesn't speak to the power of karma and conditioning, I don't know what does.

Offline heybai

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Re: Grasping - Chogyam Trungpa
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2014, 10:35:55 pm »
I'm sorry but isn't this kinda like asking Lance Armstrong why we shouldn't dope cycling??

Apart from the irony, is there something wrong with what the Vidyadhara said?

It is true that we should learn to rely on the teachings more than the messenger, but sometimes, as when the messenger is an egomaniac reprobate, confidence is quickly eroded and it is hard to take any of the words seriously. 

Offline OldPathWhiteClouds

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Re: Grasping - Chogyam Trungpa
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2016, 09:12:16 pm »
I realise this teacher is sometimes controversial, but I found the following reference recently and it's interesting to contemplate...

--------------------------------------------------------
S: Everybody seems to have different interpretations or opinions as to what you feel about drug addiction or alcoholism in relation to the Buddhist path. Can you relate drug use or heavy drinking to bardo experience?

TR: Well, it seems to be connected with the idea of reality, what is real and what is not real. Everybody tries to find what is real, using all sorts of methods, all sorts of ways. A person may discover it by using alcohol or by using drugs, but then you want to make sure that discovery of reality is really definite, 100% definite. So you go on and on and on. Then somehow, a sort of greediness takes over from your discovery at the beginning, and the whole thing becomes destructive and distorting.

This happens constantly with any kind of experience of life. At the beginning, there's a relationship; but if you try to take advantage of that relationship in a heavy-handed way, you lose the relationship absolutely, completely. That relationship becomes a destructive one rather than a good one. It's a question of whether the experience could be kept an actual experience without trying to magnify it. At a certain stage, you begin to forget that the situation that the usage is not pure experience alone; it begins to become a built-up situation that you require. And then there will be conflict.
------------------------------------------------------
http://www.beezone.com/Trungpa/transcendingmadness/transcendingmadness2.html


To me his statement is placing a certain emphasis is this relationship between the movement to distort the mind and the meditative ground experience. One loses oneself by letting go the ground in a desire to go-all-in with the distorting/grasping.

Offline OldPathWhiteClouds

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Re: Grasping - Chogyam Trungpa
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2016, 09:22:14 pm »
Fascinating that someone with so much self knowledge combined with an encyclopedic knowledge of the dharma, still couldn't overcome his own addiction.  If that doesn't speak to the power of karma and conditioning, I don't know what does.

It is possible you have a different interpretation of what he was doing than he did. When the old tantric masters drank, and drank heavily, were they grasping or clinging? I'm not certain you could say that. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the vajra tradition.

Offline OldPathWhiteClouds

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Re: Grasping - Chogyam Trungpa
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2016, 09:32:40 pm »
I'm sorry but isn't this kinda like asking Lance Armstrong why we shouldn't dope cycling??

Apart from the irony, is there something wrong with what the Vidyadhara said?

It is true that we should learn to rely on the teachings more than the messenger, but sometimes, as when the messenger is an egomaniac reprobate, confidence is quickly eroded and it is hard to take any of the words seriously.

Interesting. Does external judging of that which or those whom you don't understand combat ones ego or does it feed it by warding off threats to the ego's desire for self-reinforcement?

Offline Dairy Lama

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Re: Grasping - Chogyam Trungpa
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2016, 04:44:53 am »
It is true that we should learn to rely on the teachings more than the messenger, but sometimes, as when the messenger is an egomaniac reprobate, confidence is quickly eroded and it is hard to take any of the words seriously.

Indeed.  And anyone can sound a bit profound when they're drunk.  There are plenty of authentic teachers around, no need to waste time on charlatans.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 05:00:25 am by Spiny Norman »
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Offline Chaz

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Re: Grasping - Chogyam Trungpa
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2016, 08:17:26 pm »
I find some the attitudes demonstrated here a bit ironic.  Or selective at least.  Quite common among people who weren't  touched bt CTR's teaching.  People revere people like Coeleridge and Wordsworth, even though they were opium addicts.  Poe is honored inspite of drinking himself to death.  Joplin and Cobain have their legions of fans, and they were junkies.  One of the Beatles most popular albums was influenced by LSD trips.  Hunter Thompson, Ernest  Hemingway, John Steinbeck, Scott Fitzgerald, the greatest American novelists of the 20th century all had drug and alchohol problems.  All these we overlook their weaknesses and praise their art.  Yet, people condemn CTR for the same shortcomings and more.  They go out of their way to entirely and puritanically dismiss everything he ever said or did.  It's  a shame.  Most of them wouldn't  be Buddhists today were it not for CTR's prpogating of the Dharma.

We sometiimes es conveniently forget that the teacher will seldom conform to our preconcieved expectaions.  This is one reason so many of us never make that precious connection. 

 


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