Author Topic: Buddhism and sexuality  (Read 1016 times)

Offline niriho

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Buddhism and sexuality
« on: October 16, 2017, 12:59:11 pm »
Hi, I've read in Wikipedia The Buddha's criticism of a monk who broke his celibate vows—without having disrobed first. They were very unpleasant and it doesnt make sense that the buddha expressed himself like that(couldnt find the compassion) , I am very puzzled about the whole thing... Here's the link for it, I am wondering what others think about it.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_sexuality
Under the Celibacy and monasticism.
Thanks.

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Buddhism and sexuality
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2017, 01:32:39 pm »
Hi, nihiro.

One of the accounts I have read about Prince Sidhartha involved his making love on the balconies of his father's mansion, rolling on the floors, falling over the edge with his sexual partner through the trees and terraces.

Once he became the Budhha, all of that seemed to stop, as he chose celibacy and required it of all of his monks.

The Rules for Monks describes these rules of celibacy here:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/vin/
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline VincentRJ

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Re: Buddhism and sexuality
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2017, 04:33:19 pm »
I think the following part of the quote from the Wikipedia article, puporting to be a record of the Buddha's words,  perhaps highlights the puzzling aspect for Niriho, and might seem to demonstrate a lack of compassion on the part of the Buddha.

However, I interpret this as a method of helping the monk to overcome his uncontrollable sexual urges by using such frightening language. The sexual urge is the strongest, or at least one of the strongest urges we have.

Certain Catholic priests in modern times might have benefited from paying attention the following words attributed to the Buddha.

"Worthless man, it would be better that your penis be stuck into the mouth of a poisonous snake than into a woman's vagina.

It would be better that your penis be stuck into the mouth of a black viper than into a woman's vagina.

It would be better that your penis be stuck into a pit of burning embers, blazing and glowing, than into a woman's vagina.

Why is that? For that reason you would undergo death or death-like suffering, but you would not on that account, at the break-up of the body, after death, fall into deprivation, the bad destination, the abyss, hell..."

Offline Rahul

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Re: Buddhism and sexuality
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2017, 10:17:28 pm »
The Pali Canon was composed after Buddha's death by his disciples, and for centuries passed on verbally before being incorporated in written books. Hence, chances are that the text in it has been edited/rewritten by others and maybe doesn't represent Buddha's response verbatim always.

Secondly, Sangha is an institution that depends on donations from the society. Activities of each member of the Sangha affects the credibility and worthiness of the Sangha in the eyes of the society. For this very reason, it is utmost important to keep the image of the Sangha clean. This might be a reason why Buddha might have (if he had at all) used harsh language to rebuke that monk.

Thirdly, humans understand gravity of the situation from the strong words in the expression. Imagine Buddha coming to the monk and saying: Dear monk, this is not good for the image of the Sangha. I condemn your actions and advise you to immediately stop the violation of the monastic rules... How would this be interpreted by that monk and the members of the society that give alms to this Sangha?

If you ever managed a team of people, you would know that depending on severity of the action, your rebuke has to be strong enough to make it clear how unacceptable certain behaviour is, regardless of whether you are internally calm or angry about the situation.

Offline niriho

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Re: Buddhism and sexuality
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2017, 11:47:04 pm »
The Pali Canon was composed after Buddha's death by his disciples, and for centuries passed on verbally before being incorporated in written books. Hence, chances are that the text in it has been edited/rewritten by others and maybe doesn't represent Buddha's response verbatim always.

Secondly, Sangha is an institution that depends on donations from the society. Activities of each member of the Sangha affects the credibility and worthiness of the Sangha in the eyes of the society. For this very reason, it is utmost important to keep the image of the Sangha clean. This might be a reason why Buddha might have (if he had at all) used harsh language to rebuke that monk.

Thirdly, humans understand gravity of the situation from the strong words in the expression. Imagine Buddha coming to the monk and saying: Dear monk, this is not good for the image of the Sangha. I condemn your actions and advise you to immediately stop the violation of the monastic rules... How would this be interpreted by that monk and the members of the society that give alms to this Sangha?

If you ever managed a team of people, you would know that depending on severity of the action, your rebuke has to be strong enough to make it clear how unacceptable certain behaviour is, regardless of whether you are internally calm or angry about the situation.

Thank you Rahul and others for replies, I can better understand and accept the harsh words now.

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: Buddhism and sexuality
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2017, 12:57:28 am »
(couldnt find the compassion)

The quote is from the monastic disciple (Vinaya rules) and is obviously composed to be read by monks. The Pali is word is "mogha", which means "foolish" or "dense".

Quote
mogha
adjective
empty; vain; useless.
PTS Pali English Dictionary
mogha
adjective
empty, vain useless, stupid, foolish DN.i.187 (opp. to sacca), DN.i.199; Snp.354; Dhp.260 (˚jiṇṇa grown old in vain; C. explains as tuccha-jiṇṇa Dhp-a.iii.388); Dhp-a.i.110 (patthanā a futile wish); Pv-a.194
■ Opp. amogha SN.i.232; Ja.vi.26; Dhp-a.ii.34 (˚ṃ tassa jīvitaṃ: not in vain).

-purisa a stupid or dense fellow Vin.iv.126, Vin.iv.144.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 01:12:09 am by VisuddhiRaptor »

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: Buddhism and sexuality
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2017, 01:01:40 am »
One of the accounts I have read about Prince Sidhartha involved his making love on the balconies of his father's mansion, rolling on the floors, falling over the edge with his sexual partner through the trees and terraces.

Where exactly is this account from? 

Once he became the Budhha, all of that seemed to stop, as he chose celibacy and required it of all of his monks.

It seemed to stop long before he become a monk. How do you account for 12 years old childless marriage, apart from having a child (obviously to please his father) before he left home?


Offline Pixie

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Re: Buddhism and sexuality
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2017, 01:29:04 pm »

One of the accounts I have read about Prince Sidhartha involved his making love on the balconies of his father's mansion, rolling on the floors, falling over the edge with his sexual partner through the trees and terraces.



What ? Who's sex fantasy was that?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 01:35:10 pm by Pixie »
May all beings have happiness and the causes of happiness.
May they all be free from suffering and the causes of suffering.
May they never be deprived of true happiness devoid of any suffering.
May they abide in great impartiality, free from attachment to loved ones and aversion to others.

Offline Pixie

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Re: Buddhism and sexuality
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2017, 01:33:29 pm »
deleted
May all beings have happiness and the causes of happiness.
May they all be free from suffering and the causes of suffering.
May they never be deprived of true happiness devoid of any suffering.
May they abide in great impartiality, free from attachment to loved ones and aversion to others.

Offline IdleChater

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Re: Buddhism and sexuality
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2017, 03:31:11 pm »

One of the accounts I have read about Prince Sidhartha involved his making love on the balconies of his father's mansion, rolling on the floors, falling over the edge with his sexual partner through the trees and terraces.



What ? Who's sex fantasy was that?

Ron's maybe?  I dunno, but I think that Sidartha was a real animal in the sack.

Offline ground

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Re: Buddhism and sexuality
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2017, 11:01:39 pm »
Hi, I've read in Wikipedia The Buddha's criticism of a monk ... I am very puzzled about the whole thing...
Avoid reading stuff.  :fu:

Offline jimsouth

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Re: Buddhism and sexuality
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2017, 11:47:02 am »
I have always viewed healthy sex as just a normal part of life. Why anyone or any ideology/religion would get caught up with a normal biological function, & blow it out of proportion, allow it to go off on wild tangents, and not simply see it for exactly what it is, is beyond me. Just another part of life. I do understand the physical & emotional aspects, the closeness between partners, the bond created. Thing is, for some reason, many taboos have surfaced over one of the, if not thee, most normal biological function. Pleasurable, and conducive to propagating the species. About it.

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Buddhism and sexuality
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2017, 02:35:34 pm »
One of the accounts I have read about Prince Sidhartha involved his making love on the balconies of his father's mansion, rolling on the floors, falling over the edge with his sexual partner through the trees and terraces.


Where exactly is this account from? 


It was one of those stories about the life of the Buddha from birth to his paranibbana.  I do not recall the exact name of the account.



Once he became the Budhha, all of that seemed to stop, as he chose celibacy and required it of all of his monks.


It seemed to stop long before he become a monk. How do you account for 12 years old childless marriage, apart from having a child (obviously to please his father) before he left home?


Actually, according to the account he was studying with ascetics and hanging with followers of the ascetics.  He also experimented with starvation, which led nowhere, except to discover that it didn't work.

Following contains an account of those early years as a bodhisatta:

https://what-buddha-said.net/library/pdfs/The_Life_of_the_Buddha.pdf

Other accounts can be found in various versions of The Jataka Tales:  https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/kawasaki/bl135.html

Also in versions of The Dhammapada:  http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/scrndhamma.pdf

This quote seems to summarize his position and advisory to his monastics  http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/scrndhamma.pdf




« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 02:46:52 pm by Ron-the-Elder »
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline VisuddhiRaptor

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Re: Buddhism and sexuality
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2017, 05:36:20 pm »
I do not recall the exact name of the account.

Maybe it does not exist but was a dream had one night.

Actually, according to the account he was studying with ascetics and hanging with followers of the ascetics. 

According to the real accounts (rather than according to imagination), he lived in threee palaces & lost intoxication with worldly life while living in the palace & when he left the palace, in full view of his parents, the tears streamed down his parent's faces.

Here: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.038.than.html

Here: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.026.than.html

Quote
So, at a later time, while still young, a black-haired young man endowed with the blessings of youth in the first stage of life — and while my parents, unwilling, were crying with tears streaming down their faces — I shaved off my hair & beard, put on the ochre robe and went forth from the home life into homelessness.

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Buddhism and sexuality
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2017, 03:50:55 am »
Quote
VR:  Maybe it does not exist but was a dream had one night.

No, I remember reading the account.  It was illustrated also as I recall.

Quote
VR:  "According to the real accounts (rather than according to imagination),".....

As for imagination with regard to stories about Sidhartha Gottama, imagination no doubt played a large part in the telling of such stories.  After all, the stories regarding the method of the impregnation of his mother and Sidhartha's birth were quite imaginative .  This is understandable, since the primary means of entertainment during those early times in India was the result of highly imaginative story tellers, whose livelihood depended on their ability to entertain.  It is most likely an example of the porno of the times.

Quote
"Drunk with the intoxication of youth, an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person engages in bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, & mental misconduct. Having engaged in bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, & mental misconduct, he — on the break-up of the body, after death — reappears in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell.

"Drunk with the intoxication of health, an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person engages in bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, & mental misconduct. Having engaged in bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, & mental misconduct, he — on the break-up of the body, after death — reappears in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell.

"Drunk with the intoxication of life, an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person engages in bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, & mental misconduct. Having engaged in bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, & mental misconduct, he — on the break-up of the body, after death — reappears in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell.

"Drunk with the intoxication of youth, a monk leaves the training and returns to the lower life. Drunk with the intoxication of health, a monk leaves the training and returns to the lower life. Drunk with the intoxication of life, a monk leaves the training and returns to the lower life."

Anybody here (except the marines on this board) ever been to the hell realms?

Anybody here ever have an elephant impregnate them through their sides?

How about your previous lives in Tushita Heaven?  Anyone ever been there and hung with Great Brahmas?

The story I recall was  real.  When I find it (again).  I will post it for your entertainment as well.  Then you can ridicule the author instead of the reader. :-P
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 03:53:18 am by Ron-the-Elder »
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

 


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