Dale Carnegie

[pickledpitbull]

Last year, during my performance review at work, my supervisor recommended that I take the Dale Carnegie course.  I balked, saying that I had just too much going on (truth) and that I really had no interest in taking it (another truth).  A few months ago, my supervisor gave me an audio CD from the Dale Carnegie course to listen to when I had time.  Since annual review time is once again upon us, I decided to listen to said CD.

Has anyone else listened to this audio?  Here's my take on it:

The first section was all anecdotal.  There were stories about how so-an-so took the course and their business improved, their relationships with their employees improved, etc.  There was no data presented, just story-telling.  I work in an analytical field and data is important to me if you're talking about results.

The second and third parts were pretty much the same.  There were stories about Abe Lincoln and other people who had the same philosophy as that which was presented on the CD and how wonderful the world became as a result.  Still no data, but by now I wasn't expecting any.

It was the fourth and last part which bothered me the most.  In this section, the author talked about how to get people to do what you want them to do by basically feeding their egos and this is where I have the problem.  As a Buddhist, I have an issue with causing others to suffer by feeding their egos.  I would rather "sell" my point of view by appealing to a person's ability to reason by presenting facts and data.

Does anyone else have experience with Dale Carnegie?  Do you have the same feelings about the material presented in the course?  What did I miss?

Peace.

[francis]

I’ve read How to Win Friends and Influence People.

I think it’s pretty good advice, though getting a little dated in some respects like the terminology.  The anecdotal evidence might not work for you, but it’s a powerful persuader.

It was the fourth and last part which bothered me the most.  In this section, the author talked about how to get people to do what you want them to do by basically feeding their egos and this is where I have the problem.  As a Buddhist, I have an issue with causing others to suffer by feeding their egos.  I would rather "sell" my point of view by appealing to a person's ability to reason by presenting facts and data.

Appealing to a person's ability to reason by presenting facts and data just doesn’t work, well except for the people who are already converted.  There are many examples of this, like the global warming debate, where the facts presented by the science community are ignored in favour of emotional arguments presented by people like Lord Monckton.

I also think it depends on how you look at it.  If you don’t like the terminology, then instead of saying feeding people egos, you could say you are acknowledging people for what they are good at, which is positive.  If you want to change people’s attitudes, sell them something or whatever. Then it’s necessary to use emotional persuasion.

Interestingly enough, I just posted a link to A Scientific View of Non-Scientific Beliefs, in the Anti-Science Movement thread. If you get a chance, read the transcript or listen to the audio.  It's a very good paper on this topic.

[Hanzze]

If you like to rule others I would commend the book "The 48 laws of power , hence the Way of Dharma is a different one. There is just one Battle to win. So the short story "Dhamma Fight", hence the Way of Dharma is a different one. There is just one Battle to win. So the short story "Dhamma Fight" is maybe more useful. *smile*

[francis]

Hi Hanzee, good point. It is interesting to see the similarities between what Dale Carnegie and Ajahn Chah are saying.  Even more interesting are the links made in the following Dharma Talks - When things fall apart and "What we think, we become" -  Buddha.

[pickledpitbull]

Thanks for the links!  And yes, francis, that's the book.

I understand what you're saying, francis, with regards to global warming.  However, whenever I want to get money out of the boss, unless I show him how it's going to save him money in the long run I don't have very good chances.  The same thing goes for when he wants me to do something that I just don't think will pan out.  If I have data, my chances of winning my point are much better than if I just stroke his ego. 

The same goes with my co-workers in the field.  My company sells a high-end product with a price tag to match.  We can tell the customer how wonderful he is all day long, but unless we can convince him that we're going to provide some value, he's not going to buy.

On the other hand, asking someone to do something because he does it best isn't really fair.  I remember working with a guy who did a lousy job intentionally.  His reasoning was that there would be no expectation and therefore no one would ask him to do anything.  From what I could see, it worked - no one asked the guy to do anything and he sat on his tookis all night.  The guy who did good work got stuck doing all the dirty jobs (although everyone told him what a good job he was doing).

I realize that everyone likes to be recognized, and I'm not suggesting that they don't deserve a pat on the back.  I just don't think flattery should be used as a way to manipulate people, even if it works. 

Now, this is not to say that one shouldn't use flattery when offering constructive criticism.  That can soften the blow and keep the person open-minded to another way of doing things.  But I don't consider this the same thing.  I look at it as saying that you value the person, but maybe the task could have been approached differently.

I'll check out the links you both provided.  I've read "When Things Fall Apart", but I'm not familiar with the others.  Maybe with enough data, I can be persuaded!

Thanks, again.

[francis]

Fair enough pickledpitbull.  Perhaps, I was a tad ambiguous previously, and I should have said that good marketing requires a combination of good data as well as good persuasion skills.  If you were going for a new job in a competitive field for example, then you would need good persuasion skills as well as excellent sales figures to get the job. 

I think it’s a good idea to be open to new ideas and take the odd marketing course because we don’t know everything, and we can always learn more about ourselves and other people.  I also used to believe that because I worked in an analytical field and data was important to me, then it just had to be important to everyone else including clients.  I learnt that  this was not necessarily the case, through attending marketing courses. 

From the Buddhist perspective, being generous seems to be the key. 

I got the following from How the Buddha Solved His Marketing Problem

“When you think of the Buddha, you don’t think of marketing.  At least I hope not.  The Buddha was a spiritual teacher, with zero interest in profit. In fact, he forbade his ordained followers from even handling money. But if we agree with Seth Godin that marketing is about spreading ideas, then you could say the Buddha was one of the greatest marketers of all time. But even if you’re running a business for profit, you’ve probably noticed that generosity (link below) and purpose are critical to success in the 21st century. It’s also a nicer way of doing things.  So you may be surprised how much you can learn from the Buddha’s approach.

The Millionaire’s Secret Trait That Attracts Crazy Amounts of Success

The millionaires’ secret trait is:  Generosity.

Despite stereotypes about greedy, ruthless businesspeople, the truth is successful entrepreneurs always find ways to give. They give away generous samples of their products. They share their time, energy and success with partners. They give back to their communities. They generously support charities. They reward great employees.  They know that generosity is the smartest way to open up the floodgates of success. …”




Cheers

[Hanzze]

Well, their is one danger if a person has gained some knowledge. Many times its more trickiness then wisdom and the key to leave trickiness and change to wisdom is only in the way to be honest to one self.

I have not seen any businessman doing business for the welfare of others, even he is still thinking so. We need to dig a lot to find the cause of being busy. *smile*

How ever, one can never fail to do the right thing if the priority is always virtue and not "generosity" as compassion and real compassion is quite very different. It's easy to win peoples attachment, its quite difficult to take their attachments away.