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General Buddhism => Tea Room => Topic started by: Rasputin on October 08, 2018, 04:45:03 pm

Title: I need help
Post by: Rasputin on October 08, 2018, 04:45:03 pm
I have been fired from three jobs this year. I am a professional, so this is extra bad. The essence of it all is I am self sabotaging and I don’t know why. I get very defensive when I perceive I’ve been wronged as opposed to just letting it flow off my back like water off a duck. I talk too much when I should listen more. I unconsciously hurt myself. I just want to get along better with people. Life is with people. I need to function more harmoniously with them.
Title: Re: I need help
Post by: Chaz on October 09, 2018, 03:28:12 am
I have been fired from three jobs this year. I am a professional, so this is extra bad. The essence of it all is I am self sabotaging and I don’t know why. I get very defensive when I perceive I’ve been wronged as opposed to just letting it flow off my back like water off a duck. I talk too much when I should listen more. I unconsciously hurt myself. I just want to get along better with people. Life is with people. I need to function more harmoniously with them.

There won't be any answers here although some may try to give them.  You should seek counseling from a qualified therapist.
Title: Re: I need help
Post by: Rasputin on October 09, 2018, 06:16:00 am
There has to be some ways the dharma can help me though.
Title: Re: I need help
Post by: Chaz on October 09, 2018, 07:02:55 am
There has to be some ways the dharma can help me though.

Yes, but not with why you're getting fired.

Is there a problem with getting therapy?
Title: Re: I need help
Post by: Gibbon on October 09, 2018, 07:43:25 am
I think that establishing a regular meditation practice would certainly bring benefit in the long run.  The key is to start small, sit just a few minutes, but aim to do it every day.  If there is a slip-up, don't worry and just go back to it, it happens to everybody.  Do not expect instant results, but eventually the mind will become more peaceful and manageable. 

There is nothing wrong at supplementing this with therapy or coaching, too, if it helps.


There has to be some ways the dharma can help me though.
Title: Re: I need help
Post by: Rasputin on October 09, 2018, 10:01:43 am
Thank you gibbon
Title: Re: I need help
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on October 10, 2018, 09:50:45 pm
There has to be some ways the dharma can help me though.

You should listen to answers from a qualified Buddhist.  :dharma:

Is there a problem with getting therapy?

Financial cost.  :smack:
Title: Re: I need help
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on October 10, 2018, 10:20:26 pm
I have been fired from three jobs this year. I am a professional, so this is extra bad.

Hi friend.

The workplace today (at least in the West) has increasingly become authoritarian and politically correct; particularly where females are strongly represented in management. Therefore, it is easy to get fired for not maintaining mental composure.

I get very defensive when I perceive I’ve been wronged as opposed to just letting it flow off my back like water off a duck.

The above is "unprofessional" behaviour today because the modern professional is often expected to suspend ethical judgment, endure abuse and humiliation and never lose composure.

The essence of it all is I am self sabotaging and I don’t know why.


If you are a professional and don't know why you are acting unprofessionally; you should inquire somewhere about receiving some "vocational counselling" or training.

I talk too much when I should listen more. I unconsciously hurt myself. I just want to get along better with people. Life is with people. I need to function more harmoniously with them.

The most important thing is not never lose your temper or mental composure. I can suggest the following:

1. Try to find a job in a reasonably ethical workplace because a volatile employee in an unethical workplace is a bad mix. If you get fired then you end up worrying about receiving a bad reference from the bad workplace.

2. If you have a personal or emotional issue with anything; including with your manager; never ever express it publically. Instead, ask the person could you speak privately with them; which includes having a supervised private discussion. Generally, professional offices have small meeting rooms and if you ever have an issue then arrange to talk privately in a private room.

3. If you have an issue with a fellow employee; again; if wise; first discuss the issue with your manager. It is not possible to know which fellow employees you can trust.

4. In summary, as said, never express issues publicly and only express issues privately.

5. The Art of Negotiation is often mastered in this way; namely; by discussing issues you have or simply discussing everyday work negotiations (if they are expected to have some disagreement among parties) in a private meeting room with your manager or colleague. This prevents both parties from worrying about "losing face" in the public office.

If you have any more questions or matters you wish to discuss with me, please feel free to post them here.

Kind regards  :namaste:
Title: Re: I need help
Post by: Anemephistus on October 13, 2018, 03:15:31 pm
I work in an extremely difficult environment, with a very large number of personality types ranging from self indulgent murderers and rapists (yes I am being literal) to home schooled fundamental Pentecostal supervisors.  I have to balance a great deal of authority and maintain composure through very trying things some of which are life threatening.

There are several ways in which the Dharma has helped me navigate these pressures and several things which come to mind. Two I think are most important to composure: Compassion and equanimity, a great deal has been written about both and what virtues they bring, friend, I would like to offer a few thoughts about these to you specific to my experience of them which is not complete.

The first is that others are often acting out of the momentum of their full circumstances and are part of a larger picture we cannot always see. Regardless of their behavior towards us we are just a tiny fraction of the equation.  A person may act in an unkind way to you because their father has passed away, because they are unhappy, because they are caught in a storm of things similar to your own and cannot see past it. Often they have a view of one kind or another which brings them some manner of discontentment and the behavior they exhibit has very little to do with you even if you have become the focus of some unpleasant expression from them.

Patience and serenity in the face of these things comes from seeing how alike we are as people instead of how different we are. It comes from developing compassion for them and seeing that they are suffering just like you are. If you have been hungry you know how good it is to have food, and if you have been cold then warmth is recognizable as a comfort. We get lost in a vast confusion with one another and we suffer from it, others are the exact same as we are in this regard. We forget we both as people enjoy food, and being warm when it is cold. If a person is angry , find out why and focus on helping them , look deep at why you are offended, not deeply at your offense. Your unhappiness with their behavior does not come from them, it comes from your reaction to them and you can change that if you let go of the views which cause it. 

We attach a lot of value to our self, then we get mad or irritated when that value is challenged and we defend it. Our single life is not of more value than that of an entire office, of a town, of a country, we just place emphasis on our interests because we are predisposed to doing so as part of being human. I would question this and try to weed it out. Others go home and have a place they live, people they love and things they like and dislike, again we are the same and our offense arises within us, not as a result of circumstances within them. We cannot wrestle this offense into submission, we must remind it that the person who we wish to be offended with is in a tapestry with us but which is very different from their view and not all of our views are valid either.

As a practical matter: Arrive a little early to work. Do what is asked of you, in the time frame which you are asked to do it. Be kind to others and find what they love and share it with sympathetic joy. I have a person higher in rank than I am who loves cats, I easily understand this so I ask him how his cats are, it brings him some joy to tell me. Investigate people a little by asking them about their lives, it will make it easier to identify with them and help you connect. Try to see that they feel every bit as much as you do that their values, experience, and circumstances are as relevant as your own and they may not be able to see past their views because they do not know how to look or do not see the value in doing so.

There will be unethical people, angry and unhappy people, and people who dislike you as a matter of their internal judgment through no cause of your own. You may feel this way about others, these views build and turmoil is the result. The four noble truths, and the Eight fold path hold answers to how to approach these views, what is correct and what is not, and how to live with others who do not see things the same way.

The duck is not wet because the water rolls off, this is true, but the water rolls off because it is in the ducks nature to produce oils which insulate it from the water. The work of being free from the difficulties of living with others in the world is never done, but we all work to make duck oil.

I suggest a good teacher, or a good book on the subject, several are suggested in this thread:


http://www.freesangha.com/forums/beginner's-buddhism/the-one-book-for-beginners/ (http://www.freesangha.com/forums/beginner's-buddhism/the-one-book-for-beginners/)



Title: Re: I need help
Post by: zafrogzen on October 13, 2018, 04:19:59 pm

The workplace today (at least in the West) has increasingly become authoritarian and politically correct; particularly where females are strongly represented in management.

Why does that kind of sweeping statemen not surprise me. Poor baby.

Title: Re: I need help
Post by: Rasputin on October 13, 2018, 08:57:19 pm
I have been fired from three jobs this year. I am a professional, so this is extra bad.

Hi friend.

The workplace today (at least in the West) has increasingly become authoritarian and politically correct; particularly where females are strongly represented in management. Therefore, it is easy to get fired for not maintaining mental composure.

I get very defensive when I perceive I’ve been wronged as opposed to just letting it flow off my back like water off a duck.

The above is "unprofessional" behaviour today because the modern professional is often expected to suspend ethical judgment, endure abuse and humiliation and never lose composure.

The essence of it all is I am self sabotaging and I don’t know why.


If you are a professional and don't know why you are acting unprofessionally; you should inquire somewhere about receiving some "vocational counselling" or training.

I talk too much when I should listen more. I unconsciously hurt myself. I just want to get along better with people. Life is with people. I need to function more harmoniously with them.

The most important thing is not never lose your temper or mental composure. I can suggest the following:

1. Try to find a job in a reasonably ethical workplace because a volatile employee in an unethical workplace is a bad mix. If you get fired then you end up worrying about receiving a bad reference from the bad workplace.

2. If you have a personal or emotional issue with anything; including with your manager; never ever express it publically. Instead, ask the person could you speak privately with them; which includes having a supervised private discussion. Generally, professional offices have small meeting rooms and if you ever have an issue then arrange to talk privately in a private room.

3. If you have an issue with a fellow employee; again; if wise; first discuss the issue with your manager. It is not possible to know which fellow employees you can trust.

4. In summary, as said, never express issues publicly and only express issues privately.

5. The Art of Negotiation is often mastered in this way; namely; by discussing issues you have or simply discussing everyday work negotiations (if they are expected to have some disagreement among parties) in a private meeting room with your manager or colleague. This prevents both parties from worrying about "losing face" in the public office.

If you have any more questions or matters you wish to discuss with me, please feel free to post them here.

Kind regards  :namaste:

All I can say is, wow!  I also received some advice from a monk at my temple. He said to imagine myself as a Bodhisattva. How would a Bodhisattva behave and react to things. I can tell you, it’s already helped along with returning to my meditation practice.
Thank you for your advice. I will do as much of what you suggest as conditions will permit.
Title: Re: I need help
Post by: Rasputin on October 13, 2018, 09:01:21 pm
I work in an extremely difficult environment, with a very large number of personality types ranging from self indulgent murderers and rapists (yes I am being literal) to home schooled fundamental Pentecostal supervisors.  I have to balance a great deal of authority and maintain composure through very trying things some of which are life threatening.

There are several ways in which the Dharma has helped me navigate these pressures and several things which come to mind. Two I think are most important to composure: Compassion and equanimity, a great deal has been written about both and what virtues they bring, friend, I would like to offer a few thoughts about these to you specific to my experience of them which is not complete.

The first is that others are often acting out of the momentum of their full circumstances and are part of a larger picture we cannot always see. Regardless of their behavior towards us we are just a tiny fraction of the equation.  A person may act in an unkind way to you because their father has passed away, because they are unhappy, because they are caught in a storm of things similar to your own and cannot see past it. Often they have a view of one kind or another which brings them some manner of discontentment and the behavior they exhibit has very little to do with you even if you have become the focus of some unpleasant expression from them.

Patience and serenity in the face of these things comes from seeing how alike we are as people instead of how different we are. It comes from developing compassion for them and seeing that they are suffering just like you are. If you have been hungry you know how good it is to have food, and if you have been cold then warmth is recognizable as a comfort. We get lost in a vast confusion with one another and we suffer from it, others are the exact same as we are in this regard. We forget we both as people enjoy food, and being warm when it is cold. If a person is angry , find out why and focus on helping them , look deep at why you are offended, not deeply at your offense. Your unhappiness with their behavior does not come from them, it comes from your reaction to them and you can change that if you let go of the views which cause it. 

We attach a lot of value to our self, then we get mad or irritated when that value is challenged and we defend it. Our single life is not of more value than that of an entire office, of a town, of a country, we just place emphasis on our interests because we are predisposed to doing so as part of being human. I would question this and try to weed it out. Others go home and have a place they live, people they love and things they like and dislike, again we are the same and our offense arises within us, not as a result of circumstances within them. We cannot wrestle this offense into submission, we must remind it that the person who we wish to be offended with is in a tapestry with us but which is very different from their view and not all of our views are valid either.

As a practical matter: Arrive a little early to work. Do what is asked of you, in the time frame which you are asked to do it. Be kind to others and find what they love and share it with sympathetic joy. I have a person higher in rank than I am who loves cats, I easily understand this so I ask him how his cats are, it brings him some joy to tell me. Investigate people a little by asking them about their lives, it will make it easier to identify with them and help you connect. Try to see that they feel every bit as much as you do that their values, experience, and circumstances are as relevant as your own and they may not be able to see past their views because they do not know how to look or do not see the value in doing so.

There will be unethical people, angry and unhappy people, and people who dislike you as a matter of their internal judgment through no cause of your own. You may feel this way about others, these views build and turmoil is the result. The four noble truths, and the Eight fold path hold answers to how to approach these views, what is correct and what is not, and how to live with others who do not see things the same way.

The duck is not wet because the water rolls off, this is true, but the water rolls off because it is in the ducks nature to produce oils which insulate it from the water. The work of being free from the difficulties of living with others in the world is never done, but we all work to make duck oil.

I suggest a good teacher, or a good book on the subject, several are suggested in this thread:


[url]http://www.freesangha.com/forums/beginner's-buddhism/the-one-book-for-beginners/[/url] ([url]http://www.freesangha.com/forums/beginner's-buddhism/the-one-book-for-beginners/[/url])


Thank you very much!
Title: Re: I need help
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on October 14, 2018, 06:03:03 pm
Why does that kind of sweeping statemen not surprise me. Poor baby.

Old man with fake vain beard. Know nothing much about Dhamma and nothing about modern reality. Left-wing old Cultural Marxist hippy? 

:teehee:

Quote
394. What is the use of your matted hair, O witless man? What of your garment of antelope's hide? Within you is the tangle (of passion); only outwardly do you cleanse yourself.

Dhammapada
Title: Re: I need help
Post by: VisuddhiRaptor on October 14, 2018, 06:12:02 pm
Thank you for your advice. I will do as much of what you suggest as conditions will permit.

You are welcome friend. Be heedful. Be careful. The Bodhisattva Eight Verses for Training the Mind are linked below. These are particularly relevant to your situation and to the environment of the Post 9/11 and Feminist workplace. Also, I am pleased to read you sought and obtained personal advice from a Qualified Buddhist.

 :namaste:

Quote
With a determination to achieve the highest aim
For the benefit of all sentient beings
Which surpasses even the wish-fulfilling gem,
May I hold them dear at all times.

Whenever I interact with someone,
May I view myself as the lowest amongst all,
And, from the very depths of my heart,
Respectfully hold others as superior.

In all my deeds may I probe into my mind,
And as soon as mental and emotional afflictions arise-
As they endanger myself and others-
May I strongly confront them and avert them.

When I see beings of unpleasant character
Oppressed by strong negativity and suffering,
May I hold them dear-for they are rare to find-
As if I have discovered a jewel treasure!

When others, out of jealousy
Treat me wrongly with abuse, slander, and scorn,
May I take upon myself the defeat
And offer to others the victory
.

When someone whom I have helped,
Or in whom I have placed great hopes,
Mistreats me in extremely hurtful ways,
May I regard him still as my precious teacher.

In brief, may I offer benefit and joy
To all my mothers, both directly and indirectly,
May I quietly take upon myself
All hurts and pains of my mothers.

May all this remain undefiled
By the stains of the eight mundane concerns;
And may I, recognizing all things as illusion,
Devoid of clinging, be released from bondage.


https://www.dalailama.com/teachings/training-the-mind/training-the-mind-verse-1 (https://www.dalailama.com/teachings/training-the-mind/training-the-mind-verse-1)

Title: Re: I need help
Post by: meez on October 15, 2018, 07:05:22 am
Why does that kind of sweeping statemen not surprise me. Poor baby.

Old man with fake vain beard. Know nothing much about Dhamma and nothing about modern reality. Left-wing old Cultural Marxist hippy? 

:teehee:

Quote
394. What is the use of your matted hair, O witless man? What of your garment of antelope's hide? Within you is the tangle (of passion); only outwardly do you cleanse yourself.

Dhammapada

VR:  Are you suggesting Z's appearance has some sort of relevance in this conversation?
Title: Re: I need help
Post by: Rasputin on October 15, 2018, 10:41:12 am
I’m not sure why the arguing with someone who is being helpful. Perhaps we can all get along.
Title: Re: I need help
Post by: meez on October 15, 2018, 11:57:33 am
I’m not sure why the arguing with someone who is being helpful. Perhaps we can all get along.

Yes, getting along would be ideal.
Title: Re: I need help
Post by: Gibbon on October 15, 2018, 12:36:50 pm
That is a very good, very faithful translation of the Eight Verses.  Here are a couple of others, as well:

http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-masters/geshe-langri-thangpa/eight-verses-training-mind (http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-masters/geshe-langri-thangpa/eight-verses-training-mind)  -- I like the way this one flows

http://www.lamrim.co.za/resources/prayers/training-the-mind/ (http://www.lamrim.co.za/resources/prayers/training-the-mind/)

I have heard a teaching about how to apply this in everyday life: after waking up in the morning, read the text immediately and set the motivation to follow these practices today.  Then try your best to apply during the hectic daily activities.  At the end of the day, sit down and ask yourself: "How did I do today?"  If some lapses happened, note them without beating yourself up and resolve to do better tomorrow.

Rinse and repeat.

Now, the most important thing is to get depressed if you couldn't do it perfectly, just decide to do better the next day.  This is a tough practice and it has a connection with mindfulness, so it supplements sitting meditation really well.
Title: Re: I need help
Post by: Chaz on October 15, 2018, 02:24:15 pm
Why does that kind of sweeping statemen not surprise me. Poor baby.

Old man with fake vain beard. Know nothing much about Dhamma and nothing about modern reality. Left-wing old Cultural Marxist hippy? 

:teehee:

Quote
394. What is the use of your matted hair, O witless man? What of your garment of antelope's hide? Within you is the tangle (of passion); only outwardly do you cleanse yourself.

Dhammapada

VR:  Are you suggesting Z's appearance has some sort of relevance in this conversation?
Yeah, I was wondering what a blatant ad hom has to do with it - especially one that is generally speaking incorrect as well.
Title: Re: I need help
Post by: Chaz on October 15, 2018, 02:27:29 pm
That is a very good, very faithful translation of the Eight Verses.  Here are a couple of others, as well:

[url]http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-masters/geshe-langri-thangpa/eight-verses-training-mind[/url] ([url]http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-masters/geshe-langri-thangpa/eight-verses-training-mind[/url])  -- I like the way this one flows

[url]http://www.lamrim.co.za/resources/prayers/training-the-mind/[/url] ([url]http://www.lamrim.co.za/resources/prayers/training-the-mind/[/url])

I have heard a teaching about how to apply this in everyday life: after waking up in the morning, read the text immediately and set the motivation to follow these practices today.  Then try your best to apply during the hectic daily activities.  At the end of the day, sit down and ask yourself: "How did I do today?"  If some lapses happened, note them without beating yourself up and resolve to do better tomorrow.

Rinse and repeat.

Now, the most important thing is to get depressed if you couldn't do it perfectly, just decide to do better the next day.  This is a tough practice and it has a connection with mindfulness, so it supplements sitting meditation really well.


Pema Chodron (one of those Marxist Hippy type dontcha know), came up with a brilliant idea.  Take all of the lojong sayings and put them on flash cards.  One is read each day and then send to the back for the next day.  It gives something to contemplate and practice.
Title: Re: I need help
Post by: Gibbon on October 15, 2018, 02:31:25 pm

Pema Chodron (one of those Marxist Hippy type dontcha know), came up with a brilliant idea.  Take all of the lojong sayings and put them on flash cards.  One is read each day and then send to the back for the next day.  It gives something to contemplate and practice.

Nice!
Title: Re: I need help
Post by: zafrogzen on October 15, 2018, 04:59:46 pm
I’m not sure why the arguing with someone who is being helpful. Perhaps we can all get along.

I don't think that someone is helpful who advises you that "where females are strongly represented in management" is somehow wrong, regardless of how good the individual females might be. Going in with that attitude isn't going to help you get along with any women you might find yourself working with.

I don't know if it's a zen myth or not, but I thought the historical Buddha ordained females and treated them equally and that it was only later that Buddhism fell into the pattern of sexism common in most medieval societies and even in some Theravada Buddhism to this day.
Title: Re: I need help
Post by: meez on October 17, 2018, 09:12:49 am
I don't think that someone is helpful who advises you that "where females are strongly represented in management" is somehow wrong, regardless of how good the individual females might be. Going in with that attitude isn't going to help you get along with any women you might find yourself working with.

If that is self-portrait, old man, I sounds like you have no idea about the 21st century workplace, as I posted. I advised our new friend to be very careful if working in the modern feminist politically correct workplace. Did you just miss the non-sense of Blasey-Ford vs Kavanaugh? Or were you cheering on LSD from Palo Alto for Blasey-Ford?

 :teehee:

VR:  Are you suggesting Z's appearance has some sort of relevance in this conversation?

Yes, good sir. I was suggesting the Flower-Power era of the 1960s has ended.  :namaste:

Ease up, VR.  Doesn't need to go there.
Title: Re: I need help
Post by: Anemephistus on October 17, 2018, 10:13:14 am
For my part and with the intention to put something into this which I hope is of value...Views are dangerous.

I share my experience with a fair amount of freedom on this site. I work in a modern workplace, and was asked due to my difficulties with it if I wanted a miracle at one point.  This week I have been involved in multiple uses of physical force, I wear body armor at work, and I have been placed in charge of weapon teams and extractions, violence is part of my experience in this life. I face it often, far more often than many people in our society in the united states. I don't think I can be validly called emasculating names by anyone holding the view that peoples political opinions or social views create their suffering.  Suffering is a truth that is part of being alive with the exception that it is possible to end that suffering and still live.

I have personally seen the result of adherence to views destroy people and kill them. Gang members who are certain their ideologies are better than other views (yes they are about a lot more than drug turf) and people who view their lives as worthless and cannot escape the suffering of it. 

Somewhere in history I estimate that a pattern of justification for the actions of our ancestors started and they began to become divided by the will of their self natures. Somewhere in time those divisions which were of a nature to be dangerous to us were grown in a uncontrolled and instinctual manner and from the clouds of that storm came the lighting which has streaked through time. Everywhere it lands, it destroys. At the apex, the weapons of global destruction were made from ideas rooted in divisions, sowed in an environment of views along the evolution of time which with the energy spent contemplating divisive ideology gave reason to create the possibility of our total annihilation.

Equanimity cannot thrive in a view where a label gets in the way of the truth.  If a murder speaks the truth, it is still the truth, if a right winger, a left winger, a Marxist or a Monk speaks the truth it is still just a valid. I am not saying this because I think it, I am saying it because I work around murderers and other more standard people who disagree with me, because I live in the world and I see what we are doing to each other and I think we can be better.

I feel we have to look at the momentum of history and see where this all comes from, look at what we are trapped in. Humans are en-mass rallying to calls against each other everyday, people kill and die everyday from this phenomenon and to a lesser degree they suffer from it because they view a division and imagine how it would be if they were right or the world saw the view they had the same way. We do this instead of figuring out how to be where we are right now. I find There is no abrasion (or at least a lot less) against the mind when we interact with the person in front of us, I find the abrasion comes from interacting with who we think they are and what we think they represent.
 

Title: Re: I need help
Post by: zafrogzen on October 17, 2018, 01:21:16 pm
I find There is no abrasion (or at least a lot less) against the mind when we interact with the person in front of us, I find the abrasion comes from interacting with who we think they are and what we think they represent.

That's the only way to get along, but it has to extend out from our hearts to cover other "groups" of persons as well.
Title: Re: I need help
Post by: Anemephistus on October 17, 2018, 04:41:46 pm
I find There is no abrasion (or at least a lot less) against the mind when we interact with the person in front of us, I find the abrasion comes from interacting with who we think they are and what we think they represent.

That's the only way to get along, but it has to extend out from our hearts to cover other "groups" of persons as well.

I agree.

That ability is based on a realization I think. I tried to describe it, but it was very long. I have seen people suffering badly, it came faster for me under those conditions. The world suffers, the solutions are not views rooted in the momentum of divisive ideologies. As I have heard it, the Buddha said to question everything. The scale of that question is more of a realization than words do it credit...I haven't found an end.
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