Author Topic: Lend $25 for free  (Read 4455 times)

Offline heybai

  • Member
  • Posts: 2146
    • View Profile
Re: Lend $25 for free
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2011, 12:48:29 am »
Hanzze, while you sort through the ethics of fishing and what is / is not dana, some of us would like to loan a single HIV mom $25 so she can she can feed the family next month.

@ catmoon -- thanks for the smile...
« Last Edit: October 10, 2011, 12:50:42 am by Su Dongpo »

Offline Hanzze

  • Member
  • Posts: 2077
  • (Johann)
    • View Profile
Re: Lend $25 for free
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2011, 02:54:48 am »
"Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, but teach him to fish and will never hunger."

That is the most horrible quote in our world today. As it misses one important point. Learn somebody without moral and ethic how to fish and he will fish the lakes empty.
Maybe one should not get caught up in the fishing part. It's just a saying. One might just as well say "Give a man a bread and he'll eat for a day, but teach him to grow a crop and he will never hunger."

I know that the economic model our entire society is based on is far from perfect, but it's what we've got to work with.
Don't worry Wonky, I am not pedantic. Its not the fish as a direct wrong livelihood but if you give somebody "power" and he has no moral education that he does not care about his surrounding and that is what is happening all over the "poor" world. It might be a nice thought to help somebody to make the live easier, but actually the things is that people like to have it more easier all the time. So one may have pity seeing the man cutting wood with his hand and give him a motor saw. Now he has 6h more time a day as before and the "needs" increases in the same amount. So why not making a business, taking is an easy way.
All those countries had good developed ways of living and there was nothing missing for the normal daily live. We easy get compassion mixed up with pity.
What do you think, how many people in poor countries are thinking about a loan to get there dreams fixed and how many think on planting some food for them self. They have been used to do that form a long long time. They are poor because they are told so.

I guess there is nothing more horrible as "compassion" without wisdom, therefore its good just to give if one meets a hungry person or a with another real need. Everything else makes headache and this headache does have its reason.

Do not misunderstand me, one is able to make it with a good intention and a good mind state so that it has also a benefit. Giving to try to be good or to change something into something better is very risky and does not make anybody more independent.
In this case the donator has expectancies (doing something good, maybe money save back), the suppliers and NGOs also the Banks have prospects and aims to fulfill, the borrower has a lot of pressure to carry to fulfill all his promises... One single part of this long chain may break and a lot of people are unhappy. Don't think that the reports the donators get back are not full of fake. That is naturally, nobody would like to have bad feedback or likes to be involved in an unsuccessful project.

It might look like a lot of pessimism, no its not. It is great if people help others to come out. If they do so without claim, freely and no wish for something in return, it would be great in any way.

So it should not be a critic about the project generally but the danger of having unwholesome mind states or wishes in return when one likes to support with loans. It does not mean that there is no possible beneficial way for the giver as well as for the receiver, but it seems to me very difficult to get not caught in wrong views.

Offline Hanzze

  • Member
  • Posts: 2077
  • (Johann)
    • View Profile
Re: Lend $25 for free
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2011, 03:04:18 am »
Hanzze, while you sort through the ethics of fishing and what is / is not dana, some of us would like to loan a single HIV mom $25 so she can she can feed the family next month.

@ catmoon -- thanks for the smile...
If you get in touch with a human starving and you can share, I would not understand why one does not do it. There is no need to be more or less worthy (woman, man, with children, without, sick, healthy, young, old, nice, rude), every being is worth for a share of food.
To give a loan to an HIV woman is a little strange, how should she pay it back if she is not able to work and the risk that she will die soon makes the prosperity of a lend a little strange.

What does one like back from food? It is normal that we like to have some results or benefits back if we but some gasoline into a machine. I guess we should not have any requests in supporting real needs.
Everything beside this needs are always very speculative, regarding there results. *smile*

Offline heybai

  • Member
  • Posts: 2146
    • View Profile
Re: Lend $25 for free
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2011, 03:14:01 am »
Don't worry Wonky, I am not pedantic.


How about specious then?

Quote
Its not the fish as a direct wrong livelihood but if you give somebody "power" and he has no moral education that he does not care about his surrounding and that is what is happening all over the "poor" world.


We are talking about the working poor in most cases.  Let's leave the "moral education" of others aside, shall well?  Judge not, that ye not be judged.

Quote
It might be a nice thought to help somebody to make the live easier, but actually the things is that people like to have it more easier all the time.


We are not talking about moving from easy to easier, but from living on a knife's edge to somewhere off the knife and away from immediate harm.  Call it breathing space.  A chance.  Some hope.

Quote
So one may have pity seeing the man cutting wood with his hand and give him a motor saw. Now he has 6h more time a day as before and the "needs" increases in the same amount. So why not making a business, taking is an easy way.


Again, you are way clear of the mark.  Go here and have a look at some actual people seeking loans --

http://www.kiva.org/lend

Quote
All those countries had good developed ways of living and there was nothing missing for the normal daily live. We easy get compassion mixed up with pity.


I don't follow.  I don't think I agree but I am not sure what you are saying.

Quote
What do you think, how many people in poor countries are thinking about a loan to get there dreams fixed and how many think on planting some food for them self. They have been used to do that form a long long time. They are poor because they are told so.


Sorry, this is just nonsense.  They are "poor" or struggling because of their situations. 

Quote
I guess there is nothing more horrible as "compassion" without wisdom, therefore its good just to give if one meets a hungry person or a with another real need. Everything else makes headache and this headache does have its reason.


There are things more horrible than "compassion" without wisdom...

Quote
Do not misunderstand me, one is able to make it with a good intention and a good mind state so that it has also a benefit. Giving to try to be good or to change something into something better is very risky and does not make anybody more independent.


So, helping victims of a tsunami or other disasters is bad idea then?  I'm taking notes.  Continue...

In this case the donator has expectancies (doing something good, maybe money save back), the suppliers and NGOs also the Banks have prospects and aims to fulfill, the borrower has a lot of pressure to carry to fulfill all his promises... One single part of this long chain may break and a lot of people are unhappy. Don't think that the reports the donators get back are not full of fake. That is naturally, nobody would like to have bad feedback or likes to be involved in an unsuccessful project.

It might look like a lot of pessimism, no its not. It is great if people help others to come out. If they do so without claim, freely and no wish for something in return, it would be great in any way.

So it should not be a critic about the project generally but the danger of having unwholesome mind states or wishes in return when one likes to support with loans. It does not mean that there is no possible beneficial way for the giver as well as for the receiver, but it seems to me very difficult to get not caught in wrong views.
[/quote]

You are assuming way too much, my friend.  Remind me not to call on you in an emergency.

Offline heybai

  • Member
  • Posts: 2146
    • View Profile
Re: Lend $25 for free
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2011, 03:16:03 am »
Hanzze, while you sort through the ethics of fishing and what is / is not dana, some of us would like to loan a single HIV mom $25 so she can she can feed the family next month.

@ catmoon -- thanks for the smile...
If you get in touch with a human starving and you can share, I would not understand why one does not do it. There is no need to be more or less worthy (woman, man, with children, without, sick, healthy, young, old, nice, rude), every being is worth for a share of food.
To give a loan to an HIV woman is a little strange, how should she pay it back if she is not able to work and the risk that she will die soon makes the prosperity of a lend a little strange.

What does one like back from food? It is normal that we like to have some results or benefits back if we but some gasoline into a machine. I guess we should not have any requests in supporting real needs.
Everything beside this needs are always very speculative, regarding there results. *smile*

Why wouldn't you help an HIV woman?  Maybe she can buy medicine, live for many years, send her children to school, live a better life.

Sounds good to me!

*smile*

Offline Hanzze

  • Member
  • Posts: 2077
  • (Johann)
    • View Profile
Re: Lend $25 for free
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2011, 03:29:51 am »
Hanzze, while you sort through the ethics of fishing and what is / is not dana, some of us would like to loan a single HIV mom $25 so she can she can feed the family next month.

@ catmoon -- thanks for the smile...

If you get in touch with a human starving and you can share, I would not understand why one does not do it. There is no need to be more or less worthy (woman, man, with children, without, sick, healthy, young, old, nice, rude), every being is worth for a share of food.
To give a loan to an HIV woman is a little strange, how should she pay it back if she is not able to work and the risk that she will die soon makes the prosperity of a lend a little strange.

What does one like back from food? It is normal that we like to have some results or benefits back if we but some gasoline into a machine. I guess we should not have any requests in supporting real needs.
Everything beside this needs are always very speculative, regarding there results. *smile*


Why wouldn't you help an HIV woman?  Maybe she can buy medicine, live for many years, send her children to school, live a better life.

Sounds good to me!

*smile*

Why should somebody help a HIV woman and not a health woman. As I told you, there should be no judgement of worthier or not regarding needs.
Speculation brings suffering with it naturally.

That makes me think on a simile of Ajhan Chah:

Children, Bullets

A gun shoots its children — its bullets — outward. We shoot ours inward, into our heart. When they're good, we're shot in the heart. When they're bad, we're shot in the heart. They're an affair of kamma, our children. There are good ones, there are bad ones, but both the good and bad are our children all the same.

When they're born, look at us: The worse off they are, the more we love them. If one of them comes down with polio and gets crippled, that's the one we love the most. When we leave the house we tell the older ones, "Look after your little sister. Look after this one" — because we love her. When we're about to die we tell them, "Look after her. Look after my child." She's not strong, so you love her even more.

---
I know it is not easy to give without preconception, but actually to learn this is the point of the practice of charity. Not to be good, just to do "good", finally just letting go. If we let go of what we have to much, we help in any way.

I forgot to *smile* *smile* how heedless

Offline Hanzze

  • Member
  • Posts: 2077
  • (Johann)
    • View Profile
Re: Lend $25 for free
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2011, 03:45:51 am »
You are assuming way too much, my friend.  Remind me not to call on you in an emergency.

I guess that is a good point. It is not an emergency but a pool of speculation with all its natural failures.
Emergency and livelihood projects are something different. One is a need the other another dream. I know that it is natural to try lift others up till the own addiction, but I guess that this idea will always fail.

That is why we should practice Dana and not safe the world. The world will become better naturally in this way. *smile*

Again, you are way clear of the mark.  Go here and have a look at some actual people seeking loans --
http://www.kiva.org/lend

Don't worry I know the back round very well, some of them I could call my neighbors. I also know there really poor neighbors. It is not my intention to judge about there wish and there real intention and real needs.

But if you wish to have some stories how it works behind and what the results are pic up one case and I try to tell you what will happen with some good plausibility. 
*smile*

Offline Wonky Badger

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1440
    • View Profile
Re: Lend $25 for free
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2011, 05:09:28 am »
Don't think that the reports the donators get back are not full of fake. That is naturally, nobody would like to have bad feedback or likes to be involved in an unsuccessful project.
Actually I don't think that is true. The first loan I made at Kiva ended in loss, and still I'm there. It was noticed that the local lending company had overcharged the lender so Kiva warned the company (and maybe cut the ties to it, I don't remember), saw to that the woman that had lent the money didn't have to pay more than what was agreed upon, and we, the lenders, ended at loss. I have a hard time believing that anyone involved in that loan stopped loaning because of this. If they did, they were in it for the wrong reasons.
My actions are my only true belongings.
I cannot escape the consequences of my actions.
My actions are the ground on which I stand.
---
What would Buddha do?

Offline Hanzze

  • Member
  • Posts: 2077
  • (Johann)
    • View Profile
Re: Lend $25 for free
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2011, 05:30:57 am »
Don't think that the reports the donators get back are not full of fake. That is naturally, nobody would like to have bad feedback or likes to be involved in an unsuccessful project.
Actually I don't think that is true. The first loan I made at Kiva ended in loss, and still I'm there. It was noticed that the local lending company had overcharged the lender so Kiva warned the company (and maybe cut the ties to it, I don't remember), saw to that the woman that had lent the money didn't have to pay more than what was agreed upon, and we, the lenders, ended at loss. I have a hard time believing that anyone involved in that loan stopped loaning because of this. If they did, they were in it for the wrong reasons.

That is a great view  "to work on even there is a loss" and as I told, it might be that somebody is able to use it in a wholesome way. But the smallest thinking of gain or loose and worry about it would not lead to fruits.
Why not just giving without observing if it will fit to a promise or not. I understand that it has its excitements. First the choosing, who will be the one I support. That the thrill, will the one I chose get the loan. After that, what will happen further... It has also much of gambling, don't you think so? We all know that it is difficult to move people to help a little. As a business idea it is a great idea. If we like to get people be involved it is a great idea. But all those ideas are very delusive like most other kinds of our today's kind of business.

So much involvement and attachments, don't you think so.

So what is the reason that one gives loans if he has money left?

Offline Wonky Badger

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1440
    • View Profile
Re: Lend $25 for free
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2011, 05:38:53 am »
So much involvement and attachments, don't you think so.
For some maybe. Personally I've enabled the auto-load function so that Kiva re-issues my money to a new, random loan as soon as I have more than $25 in my account. I'm not in it for the thrill.

So what is the reason that one gives loans if he has money left?
Because he has money left!

The idea of Kiva is that the same $25 can help not only one person but several, maybe even dozens. We don't get any interest on the loans and Kiva is a non-profit organization.
My actions are my only true belongings.
I cannot escape the consequences of my actions.
My actions are the ground on which I stand.
---
What would Buddha do?

Offline Hanzze

  • Member
  • Posts: 2077
  • (Johann)
    • View Profile
Re: Lend $25 for free
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2011, 06:12:05 am »
So much involvement and attachments, don't you think so.
For some maybe. Personally I've enabled the auto-load function so that Kiva re-issues my money to a new, random loan as soon as I have more than $25 in my account. I'm not in it for the thrill.

I guess that is a great way to use it, but if it would work in this way it would not need all this thrill heels of attachment and personifications. Please don't misunderstand my posts as personal critic as well as no force for apologizing.
So what is the reason that one gives loans if he has money left?
Because he has money left!

The idea of Kiva is that the same $25 can help not only one person but several, maybe even dozens. We don't get any interest on the loans and Kiva is a non-profit organization.
[/quote]

How comes the idea that one could support more that one time? A loan has the reason to be payed back. So actually it is just a force to take somewhere else.
It might be a disbelieve that money is something that creates something by its own. If you have a tree and you led somebody wood to build a house he would need to cut another to pay it pay, or it he needs it just temporary and gives the same wood back, but even that wood it you share it temporary would not last.

The idea of charity is not to force people to do something or to make them join a way of living an make them involved but to share what is needed and shareable.

(Regarding NPO, that is nothing but a opposition. I have not seen any NPO, just alternative ways. I just took a look at some partners on side and they are nothing but subsidized credit institutes.
I guess I don't need to tell how much politic and other things are going on behind such institutions in poor countries. It is nothing but business, charity business is a really big industries.  But I guess that is another general point will led to far away form the point)

 


SimplePortal 2.3.3 © 2008-2010, SimplePortal