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Schools of Buddhism => Vajrayana => Dzogchen => Topic started by: Bodhicandra on August 31, 2010, 12:41:19 am

Title: Dzogchen meditation practice rooted in the Pali canon
Post by: Bodhicandra on August 31, 2010, 12:41:19 am
The Dzogchen sangha I belong to, the Longchen Foundation, was founded by Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche and HH Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche. The foundation of our practice is Formless meditation, taught in the three-year 'Lion's Roar'  introductory course,.

Thanks to a thread in the Theravada section of this Forum (http://www.freesangha.com/forums/index.php?topic=1812.0) I've been led to a better understanding of the relationship of our Tradition's practice to its roots in Pali canon teaching of  Ānāpānasati.

The Wikipedia page which revealed this link to me is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anapanasati; the few paragraphs just before the end of the page mention the group meditation practice defined by Trungpa, and compares it to one observer's experiences of other traditions in Tibet.

It appears from this description that the group meditation - used for at least one hour at every Sangha event at all levels  (so far as I am aware) - may be unique to our tradition.

Can anyone with experience of any other Dzogchen tradition comment on this?
Title: Re: Dzogchen meditation practice rooted in the Pali canon
Post by: Thubten_Sherab on July 13, 2012, 07:51:14 am
[Is a reply sent two years after the question too late? lol] Group meditation is also a recommended "practice" in the Gelukpa tradition, also. I think it's also happens to be a recommended practice in the Hindu Advaita tradition. They all also emphasize individual retreats at some point. Dzogchen (Nyingma & Bon), Mahamudra (Kagyu, Sakya and somewhat Gelukpa), and the Hindu Advaita all seem to be facets of the one very similar meditation basis, practice and goal. (That's just my opinion.) Doesn't matter how you "get" there; just that you do. (Another opinion of mine. lol) Take care, TS
Title: Re: Dzogchen meditation practice rooted in the Pali canon
Post by: santamonicacj on July 13, 2012, 06:17:22 pm
Dzogchen (Nyingma & Bon), Mahamudra (Kagyu, Sakya and somewhat Gelukpa)....
Gelugpas definitely practice Mahamudra. Kagyus often practice Dzoghen as well as Mahamudra. So I think it would have been better to list those parentheticals as:

"Dzogchen (Bon, Nyingma, and somewhat Kagyu), Mahamudra (Kagyu, Sakya and Gelugpa)...."    :two cents:
*****
The original question posed by the O.P. was in regards to group practice. However the title of the thread is about Dzogchen being rooted in the Pali Canon.

In regards to the title, I have a book called "In Praise of Dharmadhatu" by Nagarjuna translated by Brunnholzl. In it Brunnholzl has a chapter titled "The History of Luminous Mind" in which he cites several Pali scriptures that mention that the mind's nature is luminosity. This idea that mind is luminous is a centerpiece of the Dzogchen view. So, much to my own surprise, evidently there is some basis for what would later become Dzogchen in the Pali Canon!

Who knew? :eek:
Title: Re: Dzogchen meditation practice rooted in the Pali canon
Post by: Spiny Norman on July 14, 2012, 01:35:52 am
Thanks to a thread in the Theravada section of this Forum ([url]http://www.freesangha.com/forums/index.php?topic=1812.0[/url] ([url]http://www.freesangha.com/forums/index.php?topic=1812.0[/url])) I've been led to a better understanding of the relationship of our Tradition's practice to its roots in Pali canon teaching of  Ānāpānasati.


I've practiced both Dzogchen shamata and anapanasati, and have observed a great deal of similarity.  In both practices the breath is used as an "anchor".
Title: Re: Dzogchen meditation practice rooted in the Pali canon
Post by: NepalianBuddhist on December 26, 2012, 04:01:16 pm
Quote

Can anyone with experience of any other Dzogchen tradition comment on this?


Need a Dzogchen Instructor to interact with first. (Implementing the Mirror)
Title: Re: Dzogchen meditation practice rooted in the Pali canon
Post by: BlueSky on December 26, 2012, 11:17:58 pm
The difference between dzogchen and Anapanasati is in the introduction of your true nature.

You don't have that introduction in Anapanasati.

Actually dzogchen is very huge topic. We need to know first whether that practitioner has realized their true nature or not. If yes, they just stay in that presence both in still and in movement. And that is not meditation, because meditation means you have something to meditate.

In dzogchen and Mahamudra, the best meditation is not meditation. Because by meditating you somehow change/transform something. Basically you do something. So, what they are doing is let everything as originally as possible and within that originality they can see and they can stay in the purity (free of subject and object). So, what they are doing is not to fall into dualistic.

But if we do not realize that true nature by experience but just by concept, which means still guessing, then they are variety of techniques. In this case anapanasati is one of them.

However, that anapanasati is anapabasati with the introduction of your true nature, while in Theravada, the anapanasati is without introduction.

It is actually harder to do anapanasati in Theravada because we do not have the so called final answer. You learn it yourself from your experience. This is tough.

If you are a monk and you have a teacher who is ready to guide you 24/7, probably that is not so difficult.

But if you are a lay person who seldom see teacher, that Theravada way is really tough. Sometimes, because lacking of technique, we can get stuck somewhere.

Theravada meditation also involves mostly in silent, in this sense sitting meditation. Even they walk, walking meditation, it is also very silent.

Dzogchen trains in movement. Basically, you must be able to reach same serenity when you are sitting and when you are dancing. And for that purpose you must know your true nature.
Title: Re: Dzogchen meditation practice rooted in the Pali canon
Post by: santamonicacj on December 27, 2012, 01:52:20 am
Quote
I've practiced both Dzogchen shamata and anapanasati, and have observed a great deal of similarity.  In both practices the breath is used as an "anchor".

In the Karma Kagyu the progression is Shamatha, Vipassana and then Mahamudra. Since Dzogchen is equivalent to Mahamudra I find the term "Dzogchen Shamatha" odd. As far as I know they are two different practices, at least to my heavily Tibetan influenced understanding. The term "Anapanassti" was unfamiliar to me. I just looked it up in Wiki.

I thought Dzogchen was a stand alone practice. I have not heard of these hybrids before.
Title: Re: Dzogchen meditation practice rooted in the Pali canon
Post by: ground on December 27, 2012, 08:19:49 pm
In the Karma Kagyu the progression is Shamatha, Vipassana and then Mahamudra. Since Dzogchen is equivalent ...
If there is progression then it is just a fabrication by the intellect.  :fu:
Title: Re: Dzogchen meditation practice rooted in the Pali canon
Post by: santamonicacj on December 27, 2012, 10:48:32 pm
In the Karma Kagyu the progression is Shamatha, Vipassana and then Mahamudra. Since Dzogchen is equivalent ...
If there is progression then it is just a fabrication by the intellect.  :fu:
My meditation instructor has been doing Mahamudra for over 50 years. He has been the retreat master for many 3 year retreats, which includes teaching Mahamudra as well as the 6 Yogas of Naropa. He teaches the meditations in that order, and in doing so is respecting the way it has been done for centuries.

Your bank account numbers, credit card numbers, usernames and passwords are all "fabrications by the intellect". If you find such fabrications all "of one taste" as a Buddha does, you would not be afraid to post them here on the internet. If you find such an action unwise, as I would, then please do not be dismissive of something as a "fabrication of the intellect". In such a scenario you would be speaking from confusion, not transcendence.

But then again perhaps you are speaking from a transcendent state. I have no way of knowing. But in any case please do not post your financial accounts usernames and passwords on the internet to prove a point. I would feel horribly responsible.

If you have a meditation instructor, and he has taught you to do things differently, then you will have different information or a different perspective. If you don't have a meditation instructor that is authorized to teach by an authentic tradition, I suggest you get one, the same as I suggest to everybody that has a sincere interest in Dharma. In any case you are entitled to your own opinion.   :namaste:
Title: Re: Dzogchen meditation practice rooted in the Pali canon
Post by: Spiny Norman on December 28, 2012, 02:51:55 am
Quote
I've practiced both Dzogchen shamata and anapanasati, and have observed a great deal of similarity.  In both practices the breath is used as an "anchor".

In the Karma Kagyu the progression is Shamatha, Vipassana and then Mahamudra. Since Dzogchen is equivalent to Mahamudra I find the term "Dzogchen Shamatha" odd. As far as I know they are two different practices, at least to my heavily Tibetan influenced understanding. The term "Anapanassti" was unfamiliar to me. I just looked it up in Wiki.

I thought Dzogchen was a stand alone practice. I have not heard of these hybrids before.

I wasn't suggesting a hybrid, just that shamata is used in Dzogchen practice - as a preliminary practice if I remember correctly.  The version I was taught resembles anapanasati, with 25% attention on the breath and 75% "spacious awareness".
Title: Re: Dzogchen meditation practice rooted in the Pali canon
Post by: santamonicacj on December 28, 2012, 09:37:32 am
Quote

I wasn't suggesting a hybrid, just that shamata is used in Dzogchen practice - as a preliminary practice if I remember correctly.  The version I was taught resembles anapanasati, with 25% attention on the breath and 75% "spacious awareness".
Interesting. If you dont mind my asking, where did you learn this approach?
Title: Re: Dzogchen meditation practice rooted in the Pali canon
Post by: ground on December 28, 2012, 11:54:09 am
If there is progression then it is just a fabrication by the intellect.  :fu:

...
In any case you are entitled to your own opinion.   :namaste:

Hmh ... it is not an opinion but knowledge expressed by means of words.
A sense of "I" and "mine" may have manifested as feelings upon contacting these meaning- and feelingless words ...  consciousness grasping and affirming itself. Even if consciousness grasps itself as an idea of "mahamudra is this or that" or "there is progression in mahamudra" it still is just consciousness grasping itself and all that teaching about mahamudra is futile even if given by teacher with 100 years of practice and authoritative certification of all traditions of all word systems. Either there is direct introduction or there is no introduction. But mahamudra being a view is just evidence that no introduction ever took place. :fu:

Quote
... From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. ... Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

[url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html[/url])
Title: Re: Dzogchen meditation practice rooted in the Pali canon
Post by: santamonicacj on December 28, 2012, 12:34:44 pm
Quote
Hmh ... it is not an opinion but knowledge expressed by means of words.
A sense of "I" and "mine" may have manifested as feelings upon contacting these meaning- and feelingless words ...  consciousness grasping and affirming itself. Even if consciousness grasps itself as an idea of "mahamudra is this or that" or "there is progression in mahamudra" it still is just consciousness grasping itself and all that teaching about mahamudra is futile even if given by teacher with 100 years of practice and authoritative certification of all traditions of all word systems. Either there is direct introduction or there is no introduction. But mahamudra being a view is just evidence that no introduction ever took place. :fu:

Quote
... From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. ... Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

[url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html[/url] ([url]http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html[/url])


Please remember in both Mahamudra and Dzogchen that first there is a view, then there is the practice, and then comes the realization. One of the great pitfalls of transcendent language in The Buddha's Dharma is that unawareness can seize on it and mistake confused rhetoric for realization.

My own personal analogy is of someone that is just finding out about the game of baseball. They are told that the object of the game is to make it to home plate. Then when they get up to bat they proudly declare, "I don't need to swing the bat or run the bases, I'm already here at home plate!"

Perhaps you are a realized master, or perhaps you are a confuse dillitante. I have no way of knowing, nor do I feel compelled to form an opinion either way. However no Tibetan lama that I have ever met would ever dream to use the language of transcedance to dismiss the actual practice of Dharma.

However, as I have said, you are entitled to your own opinion.
Title: Re: Dzogchen meditation practice rooted in the Pali canon
Post by: ground on December 28, 2012, 09:18:09 pm
Yes what is called "tibetan lama" utters sounds which may entail consciousnesses grasping themselves upon these sounds touching ears since these sounds - due to conditioning starting with birth - may cause arising of affirmative ideas of past, present and future and of affirmation of the idea of some attractive state or endless attractive experience attainable in a conceived  future.  However such a religious sphere of conciousnesses actually may nevetheless entail reduction of stress if such conciousnesses are cultivated and are focusing on themselves. So there is dependence on words and dependence on perpetuation of conciousnesses which does not make a difference since dependence of the body on nutriment is concomitant.  :fu:
Title: Re: Dzogchen meditation practice rooted in the Pali canon
Post by: Spiny Norman on December 29, 2012, 02:45:12 am
Quote

I wasn't suggesting a hybrid, just that shamata is used in Dzogchen practice - as a preliminary practice if I remember correctly.  The version I was taught resembles anapanasati, with 25% attention on the breath and 75% "spacious awareness".
Interesting. If you dont mind my asking, where did you learn this approach?

While I was involved in Rigpa, Sogyal Rinpoche. 
Title: Re: Dzogchen meditation practice rooted in the Pali canon
Post by: santamonicacj on December 29, 2012, 03:43:11 am
Quote

I wasn't suggesting a hybrid, just that shamata is used in Dzogchen practice - as a preliminary practice if I remember correctly.  The version I was taught resembles anapanasati, with 25% attention on the breath and 75% "spacious awareness".
Interesting. If you dont mind my asking, where did you learn this approach?

While I was involved in Rigpa, Sogyal Rinpoche.
Thanks.
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