Author Topic: Dzogchen Samplers - a caution  (Read 8845 times)

Offline Mahasiddha Bodhisattva

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Re: Dzogchen Samplers - a caution
« Reply #30 on: June 21, 2012, 07:19:41 am »
Further to the above, no less an authority than Dudjom Rinpoche writes:

Quote
As for the direct introduction to one's own nature: This fresh immediate awareness of the present moment, transcending all thoughts related to the three times, is itself that primordial awareness or Knowledge (ye-shes) that is self-originated intrinsic Awareness (Rig-pa). This is the direct introduction to one's own nature.


Yeshe

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Re: Dzogchen Samplers - a caution
« Reply #31 on: June 21, 2012, 10:14:01 am »
Sometimes I feel there is a confusion, which may partly explain a particularly acrimonious recent thread on DW, now locked.

For example, a Nyingma lama may recommend Ngondro, but is he recommending it as a precursor to HYT practice, or stating that it must be done before Dzogchen practice?

The 3 Statements of Garab Dorje are clear in that Direct Introduction is the starting point for Dzogchen. If some Gurus delay giving it, perhaps they haven't received it themselves or perhaps they feel Garab Dorje was wrong and people should wait for some form of readiness (in itself a contradiction of an innate state which is already present).

I am sceptical of most Gurus and most organisations. Is it a con to offer the sexy carrot of instant transmission and fun activities like singing and dancing, or is it a con to ask people to pay you for decades before revealing to them what they already had.

My guess is that both are possible and it is up to us to decide on the sincerity of Gurus, and also whether they seem to be right for us and right in their advice in general - AND to remember that our choice is not one to foist on others.

Offline santamonicacj

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Re: Dzogchen Samplers - a caution
« Reply #32 on: June 21, 2012, 10:24:13 am »
The Berzin link is quite good, but I still detect a little Gelug perspective. Anyway an important point often missed from that link:

There are two types of dzogchen practitioners: those who progress in stages (lam-rim-pa) and those for whom it happens all at once (cig-car-ba). This differentiation regards the manner of proceeding to enlightenment for practitioners once they have realized essence rigpa. In other words, it regards those who have become aryas (‘ phags-pa, highly realized beings) with the attainment of a seeing pathway mind (mthong-lam, path of seeing) and the true stopping of the emotional obscurations.

Those who progress in stages proceed through the arya bodhisattva ten bhumi levels of minds (sa, Skt. bhumi), one by one, gradually removing the cognitive obscurations.

Those for whom it happens all at once achieve a true stopping of both sets of obscuration all at once with the first realization of essence rigpa. Thus, they become aryas and Buddhas simultaneously.


I know for sure I'm not the all-at-once kind, but it's nice to know that there are people that are!
« Last Edit: June 21, 2012, 10:26:43 am by santamonicacj »
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Offline Mahasiddha Bodhisattva

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Re: Dzogchen Samplers - a caution
« Reply #33 on: June 21, 2012, 10:24:39 am »
Leaving aside the whole question of whether ecclesiasticism is a gimmick or a scam, the paradox of practice is intimately interinvolved with the paradox of the enlightened/unenlightened state of the transdual itself, which the Cabalists referred to as Tetragrammaton and which Padmasambhava was clearly very interested in. This is, indeed, the essential paradox of dharma!

Offline santamonicacj

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Re: Dzogchen Samplers - a caution
« Reply #34 on: June 21, 2012, 10:32:28 am »
This is, indeed, the essential paradox of dharma!
If I may I'd like to offer a totally unsupported idea in this regard:

Dharma is not paradoxical. Samsara is paradoxical. (Interdependent Origination, Cyclic existence, et al) But when we use the language and ideas of samsara to talk about Dharma the paradoxical limits of language and imagination seem to indicate it is a paradox.

A buddy of mine came up with the phrase of "radical simplicity" for a description of Dharma. I kinda like that.

But again, THAT JUST MY INFORMAL IDEA.   :wacky:
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Offline Mahasiddha Bodhisattva

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Re: Dzogchen Samplers - a caution
« Reply #35 on: June 21, 2012, 10:35:22 am »
I agree with that, except that dharma creates samsara ultimately, so it also creates paradox. It is simple and paradoxical, just as it is real and illusory at the same time. The ultimate paradox is the non-paradoxicality of paradoxicality, and the paradoxicality of simplicity. The Sutra of Perfect Enlightenment really gets at this.

Offline Mahasiddha Bodhisattva

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Re: Dzogchen Samplers - a caution
« Reply #36 on: June 21, 2012, 10:39:19 am »
What is the link to the locked, acrimonious thread? Sounds like great reading. :)

Yeshe

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Re: Dzogchen Samplers - a caution
« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2012, 10:51:30 am »
What is the link to the locked, acrimonious thread? Sounds like great reading. :)


It makes for sad reading:

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=8879

Offline Mahasiddha Bodhisattva

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Re: Dzogchen Samplers - a caution
« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2012, 11:01:51 am »
Ugh! Animated icons.

Offline santamonicacj

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Re: Dzogchen Samplers - a caution
« Reply #39 on: June 21, 2012, 12:46:46 pm »
I agree with that, except that dharma creates samsara ultimately, so it also creates paradox.
That's not necessarily a paradox. From the perspective of a realized being it's simply "what is". Nothing else need be--or even can be--said about it.

However to ME it' a paradox...
« Last Edit: June 21, 2012, 12:50:30 pm by santamonicacj »
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Offline Mahasiddha Bodhisattva

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Re: Dzogchen Samplers - a caution
« Reply #40 on: June 21, 2012, 12:49:13 pm »
What is, is transdual. The transdual creates the dual.

GoGet

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Re: Dzogchen Samplers - a caution
« Reply #41 on: June 21, 2012, 01:30:54 pm »
What is the link to the locked, acrimonious thread? Sounds like great reading. :)


It makes for sad reading:

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=8879


It would be funny were it not so pathetic.

While there's nothing wrong with discussing Dzogchen publicly, it's been my experience that real Dzogchen practitioners usually don't talk about it much.  Hell, most teachers of Dzogchen don't talk about it much - at least not to those who they deem unready for it.  My own Guru is a Dzogchen lineage holder and he taught Dzogchen to his students for the first time in ten years only a few months ago.

Discussing the "necessity" of Ngondro is utterly pointless.  Ngondro is essentially guru yoga.  For a bunch of 'Net Buddhists to discuss Ngondro in the context of necessity is beyond stupid.  Only the guru decides the necessity of Ngondro practice. You can't begin Ngondro without the guru's permission and you can't stop unless the guru says so.

That thread should have been closed after the first page.

Offline Mahasiddha Bodhisattva

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Re: Dzogchen Samplers - a caution
« Reply #42 on: June 21, 2012, 01:35:06 pm »
I don't disagree that Dzogchen is beyond the ken of most people but on the other hand I would point to the necessity of the time from the perspective of mappo and Kalachakra and observe the state of total emergency in which the human race is currently embroiled. The old rules don't apply anymore. As we approach the year 2100, give or take, you will see everything change qualitatively, Go.

GoGet

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Re: Dzogchen Samplers - a caution
« Reply #43 on: June 21, 2012, 01:50:02 pm »
I don't disagree that Dzogchen is beyond the ken of most people but on the other hand I would point to the necessity of the time from the perspective of mappo and Kalachakra and observe the state of total emergency in which the human race is currently embroiled. The old rules don't apply anymore. As we approach the year 2100, give or take, you will see everything change qualitatively, Go.

well, I for one, don't have any plans on being here in the year 2100, so I won't "see" anything around that time.

In the meantime I have no interest in speculating what may or may not be in that year.

Offline Mahasiddha Bodhisattva

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Re: Dzogchen Samplers - a caution
« Reply #44 on: June 21, 2012, 02:01:18 pm »
The time is now. :)

 


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