Author Topic: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?  (Read 9232 times)

Offline santamonicacj

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Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« on: August 06, 2010, 01:30:23 pm »
On another thread I said that the Dzogchen view was that "everything was perfect just as it is". Now to me that is a little hard to take, especially when you are looking at horror and suffering. However I am of the impression that this is the Dzogchen view. Is that so?
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Offline Karma Dondrup Tashi

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2010, 01:35:12 pm »
Sorry. Replied on other thread.
[size=90]what I want is a view. Hannibal Lecter[/size]

Offline swampflower

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2010, 02:02:13 pm »
Everything is perfect (or purrfect as we cat lovers say) within a view realizing the true nature of reality.
However that does not mean there are no horrors in the world of conventional existence.
One must try to view all things with equanimity and to realize there is no (in my humble opinion) true evil.  There are mere obscurations veiling the true clear light of all existence.
As with all things, there is no inherent existence, only the mirror reflection of emptiness shown through manifestations of dependent origination.
Om Tare Tutare Svaha

"All that we are is the result of what we have thought.  The mind is everything.  What we think we become." Buddha Sakyamuni

Offline Caz

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2010, 02:55:40 pm »
Everything is perfect (or purrfect as we cat lovers say) within a view realizing the true nature of reality.
However that does not mean there are no horrors in the world of conventional existence.
One must try to view all things with equanimity and to realize there is no (in my humble opinion) true evil.  There are mere obscurations veiling the true clear light of all existence.
As with all things, there is no inherent existence, only the mirror reflection of emptiness shown through manifestations of dependent origination.

Good i like that.  :D

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Offline santamonicacj

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2010, 03:28:10 pm »
Everything is perfect (or purrfect as we cat lovers say) within a view realizing the true nature of reality.
However that does not mean there are no horrors in the world of conventional existence.
One must try to view all things with equanimity and to realize there is no (in my humble opinion) true evil.  There are mere obscurations veiling the true clear light of all existence.
As with all things, there is no inherent existence, only the mirror reflection of emptiness shown through manifestations of dependent origination.
Good i like that.
My own personal take on it is that enlightenment is retroactive. Once you see the perfection of all things you see that they always were perfect, but that until then there is the need for practice, etc.

But the issue here is not my perspective, but elucidating what is the formal Dzogchen view. Any Dzogchenpas out there?
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Offline Karma Dondrup Tashi

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2010, 03:31:12 pm »
Dzogchen view is that emptiness and clarity are inseparable. New Age writers say everything is perfect. Those seem to be different views.

Additionally even in samsara, which is imperfect, the base is still the base and so needs to be revealed. Even in dzogchen the view just means form is what you choose to make it.

Just because atiyoya is'highest' teaching in some schools doesn't mean it isn't still just upaya since upaya is inseparable from absolute truth.

Without bodhichitta dzogchen view is pointless. A kid dying of famine doesn't need to hear about rigpa.
[size=90]what I want is a view. Hannibal Lecter[/size]

Offline gregkavarnos

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2010, 12:29:12 am »
What it be correct to say that everything is perfect at the ultimate level but that everything is crap (suffering) at the relative level BUT that at the end of the day nothing is either/neither perfect or crap, or anything for that matter?  :lmfao:
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Offline swampflower

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2010, 11:58:36 am »
What it be correct to say that everything is perfect at the ultimate level but that everything is crap (suffering) at the relative level BUT that at the end of the day nothing is either/neither perfect or crap, or anything for that matter?  :lmfao:
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THE HEART SUTRA
Om Homage to the Perfection of Wisdom the Lovely, the Holy !

Avalokita, the Holy Lord and Bodhisattva, was moving in the deep course of the Wisdom which has gone beyond.

He looked down from on high, He beheld but five heaps, and He saw that in their own-being they were empty.

Here, O Sariputra,

form is emptiness and the very emptiness is form ;

emptiness does not differ from form, form does not differ from emptiness, whatever is emptiness, that is form,

the same is true of feelings, perceptions, impulses, and consciousness.

Here, O Sariputra,

all dharmas are marked with emptiness ;

they are not produced or stopped, not defiled or immaculate, not deficient or complete.

Therefore, O Sariputra,

in emptiness there is no form nor feeling, nor perception, nor impulse, nor consciousness ;

No eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind ; No forms, sounds, smells, tastes, touchables or objects of mind ; No sight-organ element, and so forth, until we come to :

No mind-consciousness element ; There is no ignorance, no extinction of ignorance, and so forth, until we come to : There is no decay and death, no extinction of decay and death. There is no suffering, no origination, no stopping, no path.

There is no cognition, no attainment and no non-attainment.

Therefore, O Sariputra,

it is because of his non-attainmentness that a Bodhisattva, through having relied on the Perfection of Wisdom, dwells without thought-coverings. In the absence of thought-coverings he has not been made to tremble,

he has overcome what can upset, and in the end he attains to Nirvana.

All those who appear as Buddhas in the three periods of time fully awake to the utmost, right and perfect Enlightenment because they have relied on the Perfection of Wisdom.

Therefore one should know the prajnaparamita as the great spell, the spell of great knowledge, the utmost spell, the unequalled spell, allayer of all suffering, in truth -- for what could go wrong ? By the prajnaparamita has this spell been delivered. It runs like this :

gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha.

( Gone, gone, gone beyond, gone altogether beyond, O what an awakening, all-hail ! -- )

This completes the Heart of perfect Wisdom.

(Translated by E. Conze)
Om Tare Tutare Svaha

"All that we are is the result of what we have thought.  The mind is everything.  What we think we become." Buddha Sakyamuni

Offline Bodhicandra

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2010, 03:17:01 pm »
On another thread I said that the Dzogchen view was that "everything was perfect just as it is". Now to me that is a little hard to take, especially when you are looking at horror and suffering. However I am of the impression that this is the Dzogchen view. Is that so?
There have been some good responses to this in the posts above, but may I offer a slightly different approach, which might help some people?

Dzogchen is normally translated as 'Great Perfection'. However, an alternative meaning is 'Complete or ultimate transcendence'.

So the view you quote of 'everything was  [is?] perfect just as it is' could be thought of as 'every thing is transcended'.

In other words, one is not talking about a strange set of value judgements, but moving to a different level of awareness, one in which no value judgements (good or bad) are involved.

Dzogchen is rooted firmly in a path of experience, rather than philosophical standpoints. As I understand the Dzogchen process (I'm only a beginner) the training leads one to experience the 'natural liberation' of all your thoughts and of all your experiences of worldly phenomena.  From your state of awareness you can just watch them appear from nowhere, leave (hopefully) no impression on you and dissolve (self-liberate) back into nothingness. This is an experience of emptiness.

So at that stage in one's development, there are really no concepts such as good or evil, no horror, no suffering, nothing is good or bad, harmful or attractive, because your own relationship with these phenomena is one of equanimity. There's nothing that could do you any harm, because there isn't really any 'you'.

Actually, this brings up an interesting point of detail about the translation of the Heart Sutra. The translation quoted by swampflower (above) says, at the climax of the logic of the sutra: '- for what could go wrong?'. The translation we use has at this point '- because there is no fear.'. The key point to ponder is why there is no fear. What ingredients - needed for fear to be present, have been demonstrated (by the sutra) not to exist?

For you, the appearances of all (externally-apparent) phenomena have been liberated. So, at this stage one could say that, from your standpoint, the appearances of all phenomena have been transcended, have been perfected.

Trying to understand the phrase 'everything is perfect' before emptiness and natural liberation are understood / experienced may just lead one to get a rather strange idea of the views / ethics of Dzogchen practitioners!

Hope this helps.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2010, 04:20:58 pm by Bodhicandra »
"Your first task on the path is to learn to stop being a nuisance to the world"
adapted from Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche

Offline Bodhicandra

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2010, 12:09:33 am »
On another thread I said that the Dzogchen view was that ... . Now to me that is a little hard to take ... However I am of the impression that this is the Dzogchen view. Is that so?

I'd now like to offer a separate point about the word 'view'.

The Dzogchen process, as I've experienced it so far, is made up of a progression of stages of development. In the Longchen Foundation the 'Lion's Roar' meditation course (minimum of 3 years) comprises nine gates or stages.

Each gate has its own triplet of "view - meditation - action". The 'view' describes the approach you take at that stage in your development, the 'meditation' leads you in to gaining some experience of the reality of that view and the 'action' section shows how to embody the results of those meditational experiences into everyday life, thus actualizing the 'view'.

So, given this progression of views, linked to one's individual level of maturation, it's a bit problematic to speak of a Dzogchen view as something universally applicable.

This also explains something of the need for secrecy in higher-level teachings. This tends to be a contentious point in the West, where many feel that everything should be open to everyone.  However, if one gets exposed to views requiring a level of meditative experience which one has not yet attained, one can get very confused, annoyed, puzzled (the sort of emotions santamonicacj is expressing in the quote above). In the extreme this can do harm to the reader, because s/he is put off entering the path because of a negative reaction to concepts / views one is not yet ready for.

I'm not saying that this specific 'everything is perfect' viewpoint should be secret, but, hopefully, with this and my previous post the reader can begin to see / feel that here one is on the verge of accessing views which, at an everyday level of understanding, could seem very odd, very disturbing.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2010, 12:18:20 am by Bodhicandra »
"Your first task on the path is to learn to stop being a nuisance to the world"
adapted from Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche

Offline zen-zen

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2010, 03:55:24 am »
Bodhicandra, your two previous posts were well written and it was a pleasure reading them.

Everything indeed is purrfect just as it is.

Offline Karma Dondrup Tashi

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2010, 06:33:38 am »
Purrfect.

[size=90]what I want is a view. Hannibal Lecter[/size]

Offline santamonicacj

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2010, 12:46:37 pm »
Purrfect.
My point exactly, hence the thread and the discussion.
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Offline Karma Dondrup Tashi

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2010, 01:18:29 pm »
Bodhichitta is the foundation for all views including Dzogchen and so is included in those views. No compassion, no view. If bodhichitta isn't included in dzogchen view so much for dzogchen but I don't think you'll find a dzogchen teacher ever saying that.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2010, 01:22:36 pm by Karma Dondrup Tashi »
[size=90]what I want is a view. Hannibal Lecter[/size]

Offline swampflower

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2010, 01:23:13 pm »
Purrfect.




Wow, what a way to make a point.
So what is your "point"?
It is a purrfect point indeed.

One must accept that there is suffering.
One must also examine why there is suffering.
One must also seek for the cessation of suffering.
This is a process that may be seen as infinite in duration.
One must also have the guts to face horrors with compassion, both for the victim and for the perpetrator.
Om Tare Tutare Svaha

"All that we are is the result of what we have thought.  The mind is everything.  What we think we become." Buddha Sakyamuni

 


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