Author Topic: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?  (Read 10841 times)

Offline swampflower

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2010, 02:06:26 pm »
If anyone wishes to see more pictures of horror, a vivid hell on earth, see photos of HIROSHIMA AND NAGASAKI after U.S atomic bombs were dropped.
The anniversary of the bombings were on August 6 and August 9, 1945.
May the Earth never again witness such events.
The U.S.A. and Japan are close allies now despite the awful War and the mutual horrors inflicted.
The only way to end conflict is to have compassion and equanimity.
Om Tare Tutare Svaha

"All that we are is the result of what we have thought.  The mind is everything.  What we think we become." Buddha Sakyamuni

Offline Bodhicandra

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2010, 03:38:08 pm »
Bodhichitta is the foundation for all views including Dzogchen and so is included in those views. No compassion, no view. If bodhichitta isn't included in dzogchen view so much for dzogchen but I don't think you'll find a dzogchen teacher ever saying that.

Agreed!

But what's at the heart of this issue is how (as I understand it) a Bodhisattva can simultaneously exhibit Equanimity and yet suffer heart-rending compassion for those beings (such as the one you illustrate) who are experiencing suffering, as well as for those for those who perpetrate it.

I believe it's something to do with understanding both the nature of Reality (big R), in which everything is 'perfect' - as discussed in my post above -  and the reality (small R) of the suffering of those whose confusion continues to bind them to existence in a Desire realm.

So please don't anyone get the impression that Dzogchen practitioners are indifferent to suffering, or in denial about it. I think we are talking here about developing two, parallel, simultaneous levels of understanding.
"Your first task on the path is to learn to stop being a nuisance to the world"
adapted from Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche

Offline santamonicacj

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2010, 04:16:45 pm »
Bodhichitta is the foundation for all views including Dzogchen and so is included in those views. No compassion, no view. If bodhichitta isn't included in dzogchen view so much for dzogchen but I don't think you'll find a dzogchen teacher ever saying that.

Agreed!

But what's at the heart of this issue is how (as I understand it) a Bodhisattva can simultaneously exhibit Equanimity and yet suffer heart-rending compassion for those beings (such as the one you illustrate) who are experiencing suffering, as well as for those for those who perpetrate it.

I believe it's something to do with understanding both the nature of Reality (big R), in which everything is 'perfect' - as discussed in my post above -  and the reality (small R) of the suffering of those whose confusion continues to bind them to existence in a Desire realm.

So please don't anyone get the impression that Dzogchen practitioners are indifferent to suffering, or in denial about it. I think we are talking here about developing two, parallel, simultaneous levels of understanding.
Although I started this thread I want to make it clear that I'm not an advocate of this view. However I think Bodhicandra is in the ballpark with his understanding of it.

I think in the case of grotesque suffering, as in the various versions of hell both on the Earth and not, that the suffering is a perfect reflection, if you will, of the mistaken actions and mindset of the individuals involved. It is perfect in the sense that it is perfectly their karma. The compassion comes in by seeing that the fundamental mistake is one of misunderstanding, of ignorance. Nobody wants to experience the effects of fully ripened negative karma, but the suffering that ensues is a perfect description of the 'wrongness' of the act that caused it.

This view is definitely counter-intuitive. I mean after all, what did Anne Frank do to deserve the horrors of death in a concentration camp? I still am appalled by the memory of a guy that was choking at a Dharma event and a couple of the monks (westerners) ran over to him and started doing mantras over him. He didn't need mantras, he needed the Heimlich maneuver!

At least that's my description of what it is to grasp the elephant's tail. I could be totally off base in my understanding.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2010, 04:35:42 pm by santamonicacj »
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Offline catmoon

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2010, 09:49:35 pm »
I always believed that the idea was not so much that everything is peachy keen, but more like everything is perfectly exactly what it is, no more and no less. But I might have it all wrong, I'm not an HYT practioner or anything like that.
Sergeant Schultz was onto something.

Offline santamonicacj

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2010, 10:22:37 pm »
I always believed that the idea was not so much that everything is peachy keen, but more like everything is perfectly exactly what it is, no more and no less. But I might have it all wrong, I'm not an HYT practioner or anything like that.
I don't know either--hence the question mark in the title of the thread. I'd like to hear other people's interpretations as well.

Actually I don't even know if what you just said and what I said even differ, or for that matter what Bodhicandra said either. Could all be different parts of the elephant!
« Last Edit: August 10, 2010, 10:27:42 pm by santamonicacj »
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Offline Bodhicandra

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2010, 01:53:10 am »
I always believed that the idea was not so much that everything is peachy keen, but more like everything is perfectly exactly what it is, no more and no less. But I might have it all wrong, I'm not an HYT practioner or anything like that.
I don't know either--hence the question mark in the title of the thread. I'd like to hear other people's interpretations as well.

Actually I don't even know if what you just said and what I said even differ, or for that matter what Bodhicandra said either. Could all be different parts of the elephant!

By pure coincidence (or should I say: 'Due to causes and conditions...') yesterday afternoon I discovered in a Hereford bookshop a new book on Chinese Religions (Fowler, J&M, Sussex Academic Press 2008 - so far an excellent book). In it (p.144)  is the following description of a new school of Taoism which emerged in the final stages of the Song dynasty (960 -1297):

Complete (or Perfect) Reality (or Realization, Perfection) Taoism

Looks like the same struggle for adequate words to describe this tricky viewpoint!

Curiously, the date of the emergence of this school of Taoism roughly coincides with the life of my Tibetan Dzogchen hero, Longchen Rabjam (probably 1308 – 1364), who did a wonderful job of codifying and documenting the philosophy and practice of Dzogchen.


"Your first task on the path is to learn to stop being a nuisance to the world"
adapted from Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche

Offline santamonicacj

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2010, 03:38:55 am »
I always believed that the idea was not so much that everything is peachy keen, but more like everything is perfectly exactly what it is, no more and no less. But I might have it all wrong, I'm not an HYT practioner or anything like that.
I don't know either--hence the question mark in the title of the thread. I'd like to hear other people's interpretations as well.

Actually I don't even know if what you just said and what I said even differ, or for that matter what Bodhicandra said either. Could all be different parts of the elephant!

By pure coincidence (or should I say: 'Due to causes and conditions...') yesterday afternoon I discovered in a Hereford bookshop a new book on Chinese Religions (Fowler, J&M, Sussex Academic Press 2008 - so far an excellent book). In it (p.144)  is the following description of a new school of Taoism which emerged in the final stages of the Song dynasty (960 -1297):

Complete (or Perfect) Reality (or Realization, Perfection) Taoism

Looks like the same struggle for adequate words to describe this tricky viewpoint!

Curiously, the date of the emergence of this school of Taoism roughly coincides with the life of my Tibetan Dzogchen hero, Longchen Rabjam (probably 1308 – 1364), who did a wonderful job of codifying and documenting the philosophy and practice of Dzogchen.
Any of the eastern traditions that touch on the 'non-dual' concept get tricky linguistically. The idea that samsara and nirvana are the same only experienced differently immediately runs against common sense. Yet it is found in the East repeatedly.

Weird.
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Offline Karma Dondrup Tashi

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2010, 08:51:19 am »
Bodhichitta is the foundation for all views including Dzogchen and so is included in those views. No compassion, no view. If bodhichitta isn't included in dzogchen view so much for dzogchen but I don't think you'll find a dzogchen teacher ever saying that.

Agreed!

But what's at the heart of this issue is how (as I understand it) a Bodhisattva can simultaneously exhibit Equanimity and yet suffer heart-rending compassion for those beings (such as the one you illustrate) who are experiencing suffering, as well as for those for those who perpetrate it.

I believe it's something to do with understanding both the nature of Reality (big R), in which everything is 'perfect' - as discussed in my post above -  and the reality (small R) of the suffering of those whose confusion continues to bind them to existence in a Desire realm.

So please don't anyone get the impression that Dzogchen practitioners are indifferent to suffering, or in denial about it. I think we are talking here about developing two, parallel, simultaneous levels of understanding.
Although I started this thread I want to make it clear that I'm not an advocate of this view. However I think Bodhicandra is in the ballpark with his understanding of it.

I think in the case of grotesque suffering, as in the various versions of hell both on the Earth and not, that the suffering is a perfect reflection, if you will, of the mistaken actions and mindset of the individuals involved. It is perfect in the sense that it is perfectly their karma. The compassion comes in by seeing that the fundamental mistake is one of misunderstanding, of ignorance. Nobody wants to experience the effects of fully ripened negative karma, but the suffering that ensues is a perfect description of the 'wrongness' of the act that caused it.

This view is definitely counter-intuitive. I mean after all, what did Anne Frank do to deserve the horrors of death in a concentration camp? I still am appalled by the memory of a guy that was choking at a Dharma event and a couple of the monks (westerners) ran over to him and started doing mantras over him. He didn't need mantras, he needed the Heimlich maneuver!

At least that's my description of what it is to grasp the elephant's tail. I could be totally off base in my understanding.

I have massive difficulty with this view also santa especially recently. It just seems unfair that ignorance is the thing that causes nature to inflict such unbelievable, massive suffering. Children are ignorant, but they are innocently so, and have parents to tell them not to stick forks in sockets. That's the way nature is supposed to work. It seems to me sometimes that in the Eastern views nature is this giant apersonal force which blankly refuses to instruct its children, and which views their ignorance as completely their own fault and responsibility. The endless aeons spent hanging around hell realms and desire realms until finally the turtle puts his head through the yoke in the middle of the ocean has become an extremely depressing view to me.
[size=90]what I want is a view. Hannibal Lecter[/size]

Offline Bodhicandra

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2010, 09:58:58 am »
I have massive difficulty with this view ...
... has become an extremely depressing view to me.
Well, at least now you have (re-)connected with Mahayana you know how to do something about it.
 ;D :dharma:
"Your first task on the path is to learn to stop being a nuisance to the world"
adapted from Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche

Offline TashiNyima

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2010, 11:51:28 am »
Dear Friends

om svasti

Perhaps we are projecting a meaning on the term 'perfection' that it does not have.

The etymology is thus: from L. perfectus "completed," pp. of perficere "accomplish, finish, complete," from per- "completely" + facere "to perform."

Perfect does not mean good, or desirable, or even acceptable. It means 'complete', 'lacking nothing.' It is in this sense that we can say "All is perfect, just as it is." Conventional reality is fullness of experience: the good and the bad, the beautiful and the ugly, the joyous and the terrible.

Buddhas and Mahasattva-Bodhisattvas possess the Two Non-dual Pristine Wisdoms simultaneously: seeing Ultimate Reality as it is, and seeing the variety of phenomenal manifestation (conventional reality) as others see it -- but without being affected by disturbing emotions. Their spontaneous compassion manifests without suffering.

Someone posted earlier that Buddhahood "is retroactive", and that is a wonderful insight. Because time is a conceptual elaboration, it is not present in Non-dual Wisdom. Upon separation from the emotional and cognitive obscurations that veil our Buddha Nature, all our suffering ceases. It is not only that (future) suffering will never arise again, but that all our suffering of yesterday and today has also ceased --and never was.

None of the above should be construed as condoning lack of compassion, as it is precisely through indiscriminate, all embracing compassion that we purify the cognitive and emotional obscurations that bind us to conventional reality. Knowing that we can help to bring to an end the suffering of others, past, present, and future, is the basis of Bodhichitta.

mangalam

Offline swampflower

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2010, 11:12:17 am »
Dear Friends

om svasti

Perhaps we are projecting a meaning on the term 'perfection' that it does not have.

The etymology is thus: from L. perfectus "completed," pp. of perficere "accomplish, finish, complete," from per- "completely" + facere "to perform."

Perfect does not mean good, or desirable, or even acceptable. It means 'complete', 'lacking nothing.' It is in this sense that we can say "All is perfect, just as it is." Conventional reality is fullness of experience: the good and the bad, the beautiful and the ugly, the joyous and the terrible.

Buddhas and Mahasattva-Bodhisattvas possess the Two Non-dual Pristine Wisdoms simultaneously: seeing Ultimate Reality as it is, and seeing the variety of phenomenal manifestation (conventional reality) as others see it -- but without being affected by disturbing emotions. Their spontaneous compassion manifests without suffering.

Someone posted earlier that Buddhahood "is retroactive", and that is a wonderful insight. Because time is a conceptual elaboration, it is not present in Non-dual Wisdom. Upon separation from the emotional and cognitive obscurations that veil our Buddha Nature, all our suffering ceases. It is not only that (future) suffering will never arise again, but that all our suffering of yesterday and today has also ceased --and never was.

None of the above should be construed as condoning lack of compassion, as it is precisely through indiscriminate, all embracing compassion that we purify the cognitive and emotional obscurations that bind us to conventional reality. Knowing that we can help to bring to an end the suffering of others, past, present, and future, is the basis of Bodhichitta.

mangalam

 :jinsyx: :jinsyx: :jinsyx:

It just is what it is, man.
And that is perfect, or all crap, or both, or neither.
Or all of the above.
Depends on the View.
Om Tare Tutare Svaha

"All that we are is the result of what we have thought.  The mind is everything.  What we think we become." Buddha Sakyamuni

Offline gregkavarnos

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2010, 12:39:38 am »
Venerable Tashi Nyima hits his head on the nail yet again!  ;D
 :namaste:
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Offline Dairy Lama

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2010, 02:43:47 am »
On another thread I said that the Dzogchen view was that "everything was perfect just as it is"

Things are as they are.  Suffering arises when we want things to be different.

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Offline gregkavarnos

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2010, 03:05:40 am »
I disagree, your statement invalidates the actions of Bodhisattvas and Buddhas who are constantly struggling to bring an end to suffering.

Clinging and attachment to a mistaken belief as to what/how things are brings suffering, change per se does not bring suffering.
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Offline santamonicacj

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2010, 03:20:22 am »
change per se does not bring suffering.
I think this is from the "Defects of samsara" portion of the teachings on turning the mind from samsara:

There is the suffering of suffering.
There is the suffering of change.
And there is the suffering of conditioned existence.

Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

 


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