Author Topic: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?  (Read 8662 times)

Offline zerwe

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #45 on: August 19, 2010, 05:12:32 am »
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So, to help train in that thought, you keep reminding yourself that your problems, your sources of emotional disturbance  are inside, with you, not 'out there'. There's no point in wishing that external situations were different - they are not the problem.

So you adopt the view that 'Every thing (out there) is perfect, just as it is'.

Can you appreciate how such a view could help a practitioner at an appropriate stage of development?

 :focus:

Yes, it appears that the plot had been lost a number of posts ago.  :teehee:
Shaun :namaste:

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #46 on: August 19, 2010, 05:42:02 am »
...."everything was perfect just as it is".

It probably is for a Buddha.  For us everything is just dukkha. :wacky:

Spiny

Offline santamonicacj

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #47 on: August 19, 2010, 01:07:30 pm »
On the Path of Dharma you are coming to understand that the suffering you experience is caused by your own hopes and fears, by your own expectations, by your own judgements and comparisons with prior situations.

So you are coming to realize that you can't 'blame' external things, people, events - the causes of your suffering are all yours.

So, to help train in that thought, you keep reminding yourself that your problems, your sources of emotional disturbance  are inside, with you, not 'out there'. There's no point in wishing that external situations were different - they are not the problem.

So you adopt the view that 'Every thing (out there) is perfect, just as it is'.

Can you appreciate how such a view could help a practitioner at an appropriate stage of development?
The key phrase here is "at an appropriate stage of development".

It is not for us to either dismiss the suffering of an abused child or senior, or to pontificate to them that their circumstances do not need to be addressed. The linchpin for suffering is as you say. However it is a luxury to have the objective circumstances for suffering be something that can be ignored or dismissed. Every Tibetan teacher that made it to India had to run like hell to escape the Chinese. True some did passively stay behind, but most of those were killed.

In order for this to be a coherent view, that is the linchpin to suffering are mental defilements, then objective suffering has to be attributed to misdeeds and their resulting karma as an extension of those mental defilements. Hence the relevance to the teaching on the Precious Human Rebirth. We should be grateful and use the opportunity to end our involvement with the entire system that produces such sufferings.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2010, 01:10:43 pm by santamonicacj »
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Offline swampflower

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #48 on: August 19, 2010, 02:56:25 pm »
It may even be said that happiness causes suffering.
Happiness does not cause suffering, it is incorrect to say this.  It is due to the fact that some Buddhists go out making statements like this that non-Budhists consider us sour faced grumpy gits!  :D


Oh yes, but I was not speaking against happiness, ha ha.
Did not the Budddha smile?
But my wish is to obtain blissful joy within my Dharma practice and to rise above simply mundane happiness.
I did not mean to imply that happiness is THE cause of suffering, only one of 80,000 ways to experience suffering, again through the subtle suffering of change.
Since everything is impermanent we see change and try to cling to things as they just were.  That same impermanence however is emptiness and dependent origination in action.  I think this is a little bit of the Samsara and Nirvana are one sort of thing.
By recognizing impermanence and accepting impermanence it is potentially doable to see everything as perfect just as it is.  This relies on being in the now and not looking back with clinging or looking forward with craving. 
Just in the now-just as it is.
Om Tare Tutare Svaha

"All that we are is the result of what we have thought.  The mind is everything.  What we think we become." Buddha Sakyamuni

Offline santamonicacj

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #49 on: August 19, 2010, 07:07:13 pm »
I did not mean to imply that happiness is THE cause of suffering, only one of 80,000 ways to experience suffering, again through the subtle suffering of change...
...and also the suffering of compounded experience. Hence the hopelessly unsatisfactory nature of samsara.
Quote
Since everything is impermanent we see change and try to cling to things as they just were.  That same impermanence however is emptiness and dependent origination in action.
Good point.
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Offline gregkavarnos

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #50 on: August 20, 2010, 12:02:17 am »
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"If you fear you are running after the objects of the six senses, hold yourself with the hook:"

'Employ the watchman that is mindfulness.'

Someone who has been captured with a hook has no option but to go wherever he is led. In the same way, if we catch hold of our mind--which risks being distracted by the objects of the six senses--with the hook of mindfulness, and with vigilance and carefulness, this will be of enormous benefit. We should use this watchman to constantly check how many positive or negative thoughts and actions we produce during the day. When we are able to control our minds through mindfulness, everything that appears in samsara and nirvana becomes an aid in our practice and serves to confirm the meaning of the teachings. All appearances are understood as being dharmakaya. We perceive everything in its natural purity, and there is nothing we can call impure.

--from Zurchungpa's Testament: A Commentary on Zurchung Sherab Trakpa's 'Eighty Chapters of Personal Advice' by Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, based on Shechen Gyaltsap's Annotated Edition, translated by the Padmakara Translation Group, published by Snow Lion Publications
"A genius is a person who, on a beach full of nudists, can remember peoples faces!"  Arka

Offline Ngawang Drolma

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #51 on: August 20, 2010, 12:37:47 am »
Dzogchen view is that emptiness and clarity are inseparable. New Age writers say everything is perfect. Those seem to be different views.

Additionally even in samsara, which is imperfect, the base is still the base and so needs to be revealed. Even in dzogchen the view just means form is what you choose to make it.

Just because atiyoya is'highest' teaching in some schools doesn't mean it isn't still just upaya since upaya is inseparable from absolute truth.

Without bodhichitta dzogchen view is pointless. A kid dying of famine doesn't need to hear about rigpa.

 :jinsyx:

Offline Bodhicandra

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #52 on: August 20, 2010, 02:02:56 am »
... one is not talking about a strange set of value judgements, but moving to a different level of awareness, one in which no value judgements (good or bad) are involved.

So at that stage in one's development, there are really no concepts such as good or evil, no horror, no suffering, nothing is good or bad, harmful or attractive, because your own relationship with these phenomena is one of equanimity. There's nothing that could do you any harm, because there isn't really any 'you'.

On the Path of Dharma you are coming to understand that the suffering you experience is caused by your own hopes and fears, by your own expectations, by your own judgements and comparisons with prior situations.

So you are coming to realize that you can't 'blame' external things, people, events - the causes of your suffering are all yours.

So, to help train in that thought, you keep reminding yourself that your problems, your sources of emotional disturbance  are inside, with you, not 'out there'. There's no point in wishing that external situations were different - they are not the problem.

So you adopt the view that 'Every thing (out there) is perfect, just as it is'.

Can you appreciate how such a view could help a practitioner at an appropriate stage of development?


Quote
When we are able to control our minds through mindfulness, everything that appears in samsara and nirvana becomes an aid in our practice and serves to confirm the meaning of the teachings. All appearances are understood as being dharmakaya. We perceive everything in its natural purity, and there is nothing we can call impure.

--from Zurchungpa's Testament: A Commentary on Zurchung Sherab Trakpa's 'Eighty Chapters of Personal Advice' by Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, based on Shechen Gyaltsap's Annotated Edition, translated by the Padmakara Translation Group, published by Snow Lion Publications

Excellent quote! Illustrates my point exactly - perhaps because it's author - HH Dilgo Khyentse  Rinpoche - was the co-founder of our Longchen Foundation and my teacher's Dzogchen teacher.

I've quoted my previous posts above, not to feed my ego (as I have too much of it) but because seeing the same point made in three slightly different ways (plus HH's additional point about understanding all appearances as dharmakaya, which I only dared hint at) might help more people connect with this challenging Dzogchen viewpoint.

 Thanks, Greg.
"Your first task on the path is to learn to stop being a nuisance to the world"
adapted from Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche

Offline gregkavarnos

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #53 on: August 20, 2010, 03:31:40 am »
In Mahamudra we utilise the same approach
Quote
Like the centre of the cloudless sky,
The self luminous mind is impossible to express. 
It is the wisdom of non-thought beyond analogy,
Naked ordinary mind.  Not keeping to dogmatism or arrogance,
It is clearly seen as Dharmakaya. 

The appearance of the six sense objects, like the moon in water,
Shines in the state of wisdom. 
Whatever arises is the nature of Mahamudra. 
The phenomenal world is Dharmakaya great bliss.
From The Vajra Song of the First Jamgon Kongtrul Rinpoche, Lodro Thaye
 :namaste:
"A genius is a person who, on a beach full of nudists, can remember peoples faces!"  Arka

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #54 on: August 20, 2010, 07:48:44 am »
When we no longer find it necessary to debate views, then everything will be perfect, because that will be the last attachment of which we let go.   :namaste:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline gregkavarnos

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #55 on: August 20, 2010, 09:23:04 am »
When we no longer find it necessary to debate views, then everything will be perfect,
Is this your informed opinion shining through yet again Ron?  Sorry to be the one to tell you this Ron, but understanding is reached through discussion and debate, if you have all the answers then please share them with us so we can reach perfection too.  Until then we will just have to make do with our petty views!
Quote
...because that will be the last attachment of which we let go.
Fat chance!  I've got a bucket load more attachments to deal with after this one!  You want/need some?
 :namaste:
"A genius is a person who, on a beach full of nudists, can remember peoples faces!"  Arka

Offline swampflower

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #56 on: August 20, 2010, 10:35:22 am »
  I've got a bucket load more attachments to deal with after this one!  You want/need some?
 :namaste:

Ha ha, yes Greg please give me your attachments.
I can hardly imagine the amount of merit I will accumulate by doing so. :D
Om Tare Tutare Svaha

"All that we are is the result of what we have thought.  The mind is everything.  What we think we become." Buddha Sakyamuni

Offline catmoon

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #57 on: August 20, 2010, 11:06:59 pm »
  I've got a bucket load more attachments to deal with after this one!  You want/need some?
 :namaste:

Ha ha, yes Greg please give me your attachments.
I can hardly imagine the amount of merit I will accumulate by doing so. :D

Dear Swampie:

While I greatly admire your altruism in accepting Greg's attachments, I must insist that you take measures for your own safety before you do so, if only for the selfish reason that I wish to continue to benefit from your posts.

Please be sure to have an emergency locator beacon on your person. That way, after the attachments land on you, we can send search parties directly to the site of your burial. I would also recommend a firefighter's oxygen mask and backpack to ensure you last long enough to be found. Food will not be a problem, I'm quite sure there will lots of souvlaki and baklava and such in the heap. But stay way from the retsina!
Sergeant Schultz was onto something.

Offline gregkavarnos

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #58 on: August 20, 2010, 11:15:00 pm »
Food will not be a problem, I'm quite sure there will lots of souvlaki and baklava and such in the heap. But stay way from the retsina!
Actually given that I have taken the precept not to indulge in intoxicants, am a vegetarian for even I don't know how long and don't particularly like sweets you'll find none of the three above-listed delicacies in my pile of attachments!  You'll have to make do with green tea, cheese pies and maybe, if you are lucky, a freshly baked chocolate croissant.
 :namaste:
"A genius is a person who, on a beach full of nudists, can remember peoples faces!"  Arka

Offline humanitas

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #59 on: August 21, 2010, 10:08:24 am »
Quote from: Bodhicandra
Looks like just about everyone other then myself has a problem with this phrase.

I completely agree with the phrase personally.  Everything IS perfect as it is, it is complete, it is not lacking in any way except for the right or wrong moral meaning which add as our own connotations.  Perfect does NOT mean good or bad or favorable/unfavorable, wholesome/unwholesome.  It is simply a state of completely as it is, it could be no other way than it is.  

Dependent origination in itself would show how any consequence is a perfect sequitur to its cause and conditions.  It's not like reality lacks something we have to add to it.  Therefore everything IS perfect, just not always suitable to our tastes/preferences/ego, and therefore there IS suffering because WE suffer.  And if the perfect completeness of tragedy is too painful, we can always work to shift the direction of natural perfection by changing the conditions that will generate more causes.  I think we Buddhists call it practice.

Everything is not happy as it is there is so much suffering.  But it is perfect. Including Greg's attachments.   Perfectly samsara.  Complete in its dichotomy reflecting our exact collective level of development as a human race.

Perfectly Samsara.  Sounds like a good band name.  

So to throw in my 2 cents, everything is both perfect and excellent.  Not always pleasant but that is a matter of resolving with practice.  It is all mud for the lotus.

:headbow:
Ogyen.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2010, 10:13:27 am by humanitas »
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