Author Topic: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?  (Read 8685 times)

Offline swampflower

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #60 on: August 21, 2010, 11:19:39 am »
Quote from: Bodhicandra
Looks like just about everyone other then myself has a problem with this phrase.

Dependent origination in itself would show how any consequence is a perfect sequitur to its cause and conditions.  It's not like reality lacks something we have to add to it.  ...
... we can always work to shift the direction of natural perfection by changing the conditions that will generate more causes.  I think we Buddhists call it practice.


It is all mud for the lotus.

:headbow:
Ogyen.

Most excellent!  Om
Om Tare Tutare Svaha

"All that we are is the result of what we have thought.  The mind is everything.  What we think we become." Buddha Sakyamuni

Offline catmoon

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #61 on: August 21, 2010, 12:18:28 pm »
Food will not be a problem, I'm quite sure there will lots of souvlaki and baklava and such in the heap. But stay way from the retsina!
Actually given that I have taken the precept not to indulge in intoxicants, am a vegetarian for even I don't know how long and don't particularly like sweets you'll find none of the three above-listed delicacies in my pile of attachments!  You'll have to make do with green tea, cheese pies and maybe, if you are lucky, a freshly baked chocolate croissant.
 :namaste:


Ah the perils of guesswork. All the same, the menu sounds quite tolerable and should sustain life for a considerable period of time. come to think of it I rather like cheese pies and such. Gee.... ( rummage rummage rummage) there's some pretty cool stuff in here! Hmmm... maybe I should accept some of these attachments myself. I wonder if there's any feta in here.....
Sergeant Schultz was onto something.

Offline Spiny Norman

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #62 on: August 23, 2010, 03:29:57 am »
Everything IS perfect as it is, it is complete, it is not lacking in any way except for the right or wrong moral meaning which add as our own connotations.  Perfect does NOT mean good or bad or favorable/unfavorable, wholesome/unwholesome.  It is simply a state of completely as it is, it could be no other way than it is.  

Yes, I can see it makes sense with this rather technical application of the word "perfect".   But why not just say "things are as they are"?

Spiny

Offline gregkavarnos

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #63 on: August 23, 2010, 03:50:23 am »
Yes, I can see it makes sense with this rather technical application of the word "perfect".   But why not just say "things are as they are"?
Probably coz we wouldn't be able to agree to what "are" is.  How things "are" for you may not be how things "are" for me.  Maybe it would be better to say things are complete but even that would cause a fray cause I may sense a lack of something.  I imagine in its entirety existence is complete and perfect, but when we focus on a detail it seems incomplete and imperfect.  Like looking at a single pixel of a whole picture.
 :namaste:
"A genius is a person who, on a beach full of nudists, can remember peoples faces!"  Arka

Offline Pema Rigdzin

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #64 on: September 23, 2010, 01:31:25 am »
On another thread I said that the Dzogchen view was that "everything was perfect just as it is". Now to me that is a little hard to take, especially when you are looking at horror and suffering. However I am of the impression that this is the Dzogchen view. Is that so?

Everything IS perfect, "just as it is." But, without direct knowledge of our true nature - from which our confused mind and our experience of all phenomena arise - we don't experience things "just as they are," we experience samsara. When Dzogchen says "everything is perfect just as it is," it is not disregarding the fact that samsara seems damn real to ordinary sentient beings - all too often unimaginably horribly real. Dzogchen is definitely not saying that an ordinary being's point of view and experience - samsara - is in any way perfect. But you must remember that samsara is not permanent and truly, objectively existing. No level of Buddhist teaching says samsara inherently exists. If samsara objectively existed and were inherently real, then samsaric beings could only ever experience samsara, never liberation. For such beings in such a reality, nothing could ever, ever bridge the gap between samsara and nirvana. However, samsara is not inherently, objectively existent. It is only a view and experience based upon not knowing how things truly are. Samsara is unawareness and nirvana is wisdom awareness. Neither is a truly existing, objective reality. Both are just modes of experience. Saying they are "just" modes of existence does not minimize them, it sends a liberating message that we are not doomed to suffer samsara forever. Therefore, it is said that the difference between samsara and nirvana is the state of one's own mind. Good or bad, high or low, all is within the state of emptiness. But with realization of this comes the painful realization that although this is the case, incalculable beings are unaware of this and even firmly convinced they and the world around them are objectively real, so they experience experience all kinds of suffering. Bodhicitta comes in the picture here, driving one to endeavor to fully realize the nature as it is in order to uncover and actualize the capacity to help all other beings realize it too so they can escape, or better yet transcend, suffering once and for all. This is what the Middle Way says, what Mahamudra says, and what Dzogchen says.



« Last Edit: September 23, 2010, 02:06:37 am by Pema Rigdzin, Reason: typo correction »

Offline humanitas

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #65 on: September 23, 2010, 07:34:21 pm »
 :Approval:

You have no idea how happy I am to see you.


Gosh it just hit me how much I've missed you.
This post was made with 100% recycled karma

Offline Pema Rigdzin

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #66 on: September 23, 2010, 07:35:26 pm »
:Approval:

You have no idea how happy I am to see you.


Gosh it just hit me how much I've missed you.


Hahaha awww... good to see you too, my friend! :)

Offline MikeL

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #67 on: January 05, 2013, 11:17:11 am »
Sure, everything is perfect.  How can it be any other way?

The universe exists, and it is obviously functioning. There are no problems with the universe.  Hence, the universe is perfect; it must be. How could it be anything other than that?  Is there something in the universe that's out of place or that doesn't work?  If not, then all objects in the universe (you, me, Uncle Bob, The Taliban) are all perfect, too.  They must be.  They are part of the universe (reality), and no part of reality is broken or not working.   

"But, but, but . . . what about all the suffering in the world?"  Well, that Must Be Perfect also. It's all a "part" of an evolving universe / reality that right now right here is absolute perfection.  Suffering is a part of the perfection.  It's just a part (one of the multitudes of displays) of the "lila" that's playing out in front of us. 

Suffering is counter-intuitive initially.  It implies there are things that are wrong or bad.  Look closely at anything, and you'll see that everything contains the openness or possibility of both positive and negative elements or outcomes in it.  You cannot have day without night, bad without good, right without wrong . . . and that might lead one to see every object as a polarity.  So if Everything holds opposites, then maybe those opposites (evaluations) are really just abstractions, constructions, or the results of selective perceptions.  Maybe they are not inherent in things.  Maybe evaluations (so-called "non-perfections") are simply the result of attachments and aversions. 

"But pain is real!"  Ok, about as much as anything else.  What's is the problem with pain, after all?  Pain can be very good. It can tell you that you're hand is on a hot stove, that you have problematical behaviors, or that something is threatening your well-being.  Isn't that good?  (You can apply this to everything from childhood learning experiences to health care programs in the U.S.)  This is how we develop, and the mind-body organism has millions of years of experience and development doing exactly that.  We are consciousness becoming aware of itself (an allegory).  This is how it goes.  Don't you think it's infinitely intelligent?

I'm also going to sidestep the idea that there are any objects in reality in this post.  (There aren't.)

So maybe that's one way to look at the statement.  Yeah, everything is perfect.  IT must be.  How could IT not be perfect? 

The other part of the question is even more interesting, I think:  "just as it is."  Natural Perfection = just as it is. 

There appear to be a number of core notions that teachers use that can lead to awakening, if understood and taken to the end of the line.  Natural perfection is one of them.  Emptiness is another. So are:  The Unborn; I Am; letting go; who is speaking / asking / talking?; pristine awareness, etc. 

Be well.

Offline dennis

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #68 on: October 29, 2013, 10:32:35 am »
I remember reading you shouldn't worry so much about making choices about the direction of your path.  It said instead to contemplate snowflakes, and how each falls in it's own perfect place.

And I read of the Buddha's first words after his enlightenment:  "What is this wonder I see?  Everyone and everything is already perfect."

I understand, later, sutras were written to clarify what was actually meant, but I think I know.

My poem in honor:

"I have seen truth.
And the truth is love.
And this is why everyone and everything is perfect."

Offline Lobster

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #69 on: October 29, 2013, 01:13:41 pm »
"I have seen truth.
And the truth is love.
And this is why everyone and everything is perfect."

 :hug:
When we begin it is difficult to comprehend what seems flawed, imperfect, ignorant, evil.
It is why we take refuge in the positive examples, the easily knowable and comprehensible. In effect the good. The good grows.  :namaste:


Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #70 on: October 29, 2013, 08:17:14 pm »
Hi, greg.  So happy to see your words on FS again. :hug: 

As for opinions, they come pretty cheap  by the dozen on most forums. :-P  What I truly value is experience, which leads to learning that helps us to survive under all foreseeable circumstances. I prefer these to both read and share. 

In any event, thanks for keeping me on the straight path as always. :)

_/\_Ron
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Offline dennis

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #71 on: November 01, 2013, 09:33:08 am »
"I have seen truth.
And the truth is love.
And this is why everyone and everything is perfect."

 :hug:
When we begin it is difficult to comprehend what seems flawed, imperfect, ignorant, evil.
It is why we take refuge in the positive examples, the easily knowable and comprehensible. In effect the good. The good grows.  :namaste:

Thanks, Friend Lobster.  :hug:

"When we begin....."  I must find myself especially blessed because I recently find the "flawed, imperfect, ignorant, evil" to be easily observable (terribly observable), within me, in a way I've never before experienced. (And there I was, all perfect and everything.) :wink1:

This leads me to my eternal internal question of  practicing  Buddhism without being a Buddhist.  Still having problems with the Sangha/Asperger thing, which is kind of why you see me popping up here in Dzogchen.

And yet, as you say:  The good grows.  I believe Compassion bears me forward.  As I'm certain it does yourself.

 :namaste: Friend
may flowers line your path,
denny

Offline NepalianBuddhist

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #72 on: November 01, 2013, 12:31:29 pm »
Could be.

Offline Martin Voggenberger

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #73 on: February 10, 2014, 05:00:09 am »
 :dharma:
« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 05:38:41 am by Martin Voggenberger »

Offline Ron-the-Elder

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #74 on: February 10, 2014, 07:54:24 am »
I am not sure, because I have yet to become aware of everything. :eek:  I am a little concerned about what is going on beyond the great barrier beyond the edge of our galaxy. :-P

The Great Barrier:  http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2007/08/great-galactic-.html
« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 07:57:09 am by Ron-the-Elder »
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

 


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