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Schools of Buddhism => Vajrayana => Dzogchen => Topic started by: Bodhicandra on August 27, 2010, 06:24:02 am

Title: Limitations of the other Yanas
Post by: Bodhicandra on August 27, 2010, 06:24:02 am
Please make sure you have read and understood my caution in http://www.freesangha.com/forums/index.php?topic=1795.0 (http://www.freesangha.com/forums/index.php?topic=1795.0) before proceeding!

This is 'diving in at the deep end' - it's a precious Tantra, it's the one that first grabbed hold of me, just from reading the book below, and brought me face-to-face with the need to find a Dzogchen teacher.

This extract is from "The Supreme Source - the Fundamental Tantra of the Dzogchen Semde - Kunjed Gyalpo", Norbu & Clemente, Snow Lion 1999 (pp.182-3).

The Supreme Source, who is teaching, is the primordial Buddha, Samantabhadra, who is 'pure and total consciousness'.

Quote

Sattavajra asked: Teacher, Supreme Source! If your teaching is pure and total consciousness, and this itself is the state of enlightenment, are the beings of the three worlds not already enlightened? Why, in this case, do they transmigrate in the three worlds? Then the supreme source, pure and total consciousness, said:

Listen, great being! All the phenomena that spring forth from pure and total consciousness are a manifestation of the fundamental nature. This nature is single in its essence, yet it manifests in the five [sense] objects.

When desire and aversion arise, [śrāvakas] deem [the five sense objects] to be the cause of the passions and of suffering. Consequently, they try to eliminate them, even though precisely these five natural objects are self-arising wisdom. Thus, being unable to eliminate them in less than three kalpas, they continue to transmigrate in the three worlds.

When the five objects of the single, natural condition manifest, due to desire and aversion [pratyekabuddhas] deem them to be the cause of samsāra. Consequently, they try to eliminate them, even though in reality precisely these are self-arising wisdom. Thus unsuccessful for many kalpas, they continue to transmigrate in the three worlds.

When the five objects of the single, natural condition manifest, due to desire and aversion, [Bodhisattvas (not following one of the Vajrayana paths below)] deem them the abode of attachment. Consequently, they try to purify them, even though in reality precisely these are self-arising wisdom. Thus unable to purify them in less than one long kalpa, they continue to transmigrate in the three worlds.

When the five objects of the single, natural condition manifest from pure and total consciousness, due to desire and aversion [followers of kriyā] deem they have to be empowered by means of spiritual energy. Consequently, they empower the inner and the outer to make them pure, and likewise they purify the five natural objects even though in reality precisely these are self-arising wisdom. However, being unable to empower them in less than seven lives, they continue to transmigrate in the three worlds.

When the five objects of the single, natural condition manifest from pure and total consciousness, due to desire and aversion [followers of yoga] deem them the cause of higher and lower states. Consequently, they act in terms of acceptance and rejection as regards the fundamental nature. But, as self-arising wisdom cannot reject itself, however obstinately they try, they continue to transmigrate in the three worlds.

When the five objects of the single, natural condition manifest from pure and total consciousness, due to desire and aversion [followers of mahāyoga] recognize that the five objects are the Body, Voice and Mind, and so they try to realize them by practising. However, as they try to attain that which naturally exists, due to their striving, they continue to transmigrate.

...

All is one in the natural condition, just as it is, so seeking to alter it is a mistake!

...



Title: Re: Limitations of the other Yanas
Post by: mindyourmind on August 30, 2010, 03:12:30 am
I'm a Mahamudra practitioner, but thank you for the post and the link. It is always interesting to learn about other traditions, especially one as revered as Dzogchen.
 :anjali:
Title: Re: Limitations of the other Yanas
Post by: Bodhicandra on August 30, 2010, 05:43:40 am
I'm a Mahamudra practitioner, but thank you for the post and the link. It is always interesting to learn about other traditions, especially one as revered as Dzogchen.
 :anjali:


As I understand it, there's only a tiny difference between Mahamudra and Dzogchen - I don't know what that is.
Title: Re: Limitations of the other Yanas
Post by: mindyourmind on August 30, 2010, 06:17:34 am
I'm a Mahamudra practitioner, but thank you for the post and the link. It is always interesting to learn about other traditions, especially one as revered as Dzogchen.
 :anjali:


As I understand it, there's only a tiny difference between Mahamudra and Dzogchen - I don't know what that is.

I am particularly well unqualified to have an opinion on this, but sometimes I experience the opinions as simple confidence by various practitioners in their own paths. Somewhere in the fog of my memory though I seem to recall some advanced Tibetan practitioner that practiced both and who then had nice things to say about Dzogchen  :suit:
Title: Re: Limitations of the other Yanas
Post by: Yeshe Zopa on August 30, 2010, 06:28:22 am
I'm a Mahamudra practitioner, but thank you for the post and the link. It is always interesting to learn about other traditions, especially one as revered as Dzogchen.
 :anjali:



As I understand it, there's only a tiny difference between Mahamudra and Dzogchen - I don't know what that is.


In the dim and distant past, I seem to remember being told that the two have been taught together, and also as separate paths. The Gelugpa teach Mahamudra, which is my root, but I've never heard of Gelug Dzogchen so I assume it is considered separate.

This short article may be useful:

http://www.khandro.net/doctrine_higher_teachings.htm
Title: Re: Limitations of the other Yanas
Post by: Bodhicandra on August 30, 2010, 07:29:07 am
I'm a Mahamudra practitioner, but thank you for the post and the link. It is always interesting to learn about other traditions, especially one as revered as Dzogchen.
 :anjali:



As I understand it, there's only a tiny difference between Mahamudra and Dzogchen - I don't know what that is.


In the dim and distant past, I seem to remember being told that the two have been taught together, and also as separate paths. The Gelugpa teach Mahamudra, which is my root, but I've never heard of Gelug Dzogchen so I assume it is considered separate.

This short article may be useful:

[url]http://www.khandro.net/doctrine_higher_teachings.htm[/url]


Thanks for the link - interesting.

Clearly the paths, teminology (and hats) are different, but they seem to lead to very much the same 'place'.
Naturally, my tradition claims it is the better of the two, and I expect yours has the same opinion of itself.

Any differences in the end points? I guess we'll just have to wait till we meet up there and compare notes  :D
Title: Re: Limitations of the other Yanas
Post by: humanitas on August 30, 2010, 09:41:00 am
well if the hats are different, I guess that changes everything.

:lmfao:
o.
Title: Re: Limitations of the other Yanas
Post by: mindyourmind on August 30, 2010, 09:51:37 am

It is also clear to see from an advanced practitioner such as myself that Mahamudra is clearly better  :spiderman:
Title: Re: Limitations of the other Yanas
Post by: Yeshe Zopa on August 30, 2010, 12:27:30 pm

It is also clear to see from an advanced practitioner such as myself that Mahamudra is clearly better  :spiderman:

That'll be that Clear Light of Bliss illuminating the path.  Or headlights moments before you become roadkill! LOL :)
Title: Re: Limitations of the other Yanas
Post by: humanitas on August 30, 2010, 12:46:12 pm
YZ I think it depends on which hat you wear...
Title: Re: Limitations of the other Yanas
Post by: Yeshe Zopa on August 30, 2010, 12:50:27 pm
YZ I think it depends on which hat you wear...

In which case, I'll go for the fez! LOL :)
Title: Re: Limitations of the other Yanas
Post by: Lobster on November 03, 2012, 10:39:07 pm
Whatever the hat, the head is still empty.  :eek:

. . . think I'll go for a nice cape . . .  :grouphug:
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