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Schools of Buddhism => Vajrayana => Dzogchen => Topic started by: ground on June 30, 2017, 10:41:48 pm

Title: The Three Statements That Strike the Essential Points
Post by: ground on June 30, 2017, 10:41:48 pm
Quote
The Three Statements That Strike the Essential Points by Garab Dorje

One is introduced directly to one's own nature.

One definitively decides upon this unique state.

One continues directly with confidence in liberation.

THE GOLDEN LETTERS, JOHN MYRDHIN REYNOLDS

These three statements are everything that needs to be said. Nevertheless these led to countless scholary comments, one more elaborative than the other, adding numerous details and thus causing confusion in minds that mis the first essential point from the outset when never having been directly introduced even when having participated in one of these contrived traditional ceremonies misleadingly called 'direct introduction'.

Due to its extraordinary integration of brevity and preciseness however I would like to add one comment:

Quote
A Short Commentary on the Three Statements of Garab Dorje by H. H. Dudjom Rinpoche

I. As for the direct introduction to one's own nature: This fresh immediate
awareness of the present moment, transcending all thoughts related to the three
times, is itself that primordial awareness or knowledge (ye-shes) that is selforiginated
intrinsic Awareness (rig-pa). This is the direct introduction to one's
own nature.

II. As for deciding definitively upon this unique state: Whatever phenomena of
Samsara and Nirvana may manifest, all of them represent the play of the creative
energy or potentiality of one's own immediate intrinsic Awareness (rig-pa'i rtsal).
Since there is nothing that goes beyond just this, one should continue in the state
of this singular and unique Awareness. Therefore, one must definitively decide
upon this unique state for oneself and know that there exists nothing other than
this.

III. As for directly continuing with confidence in liberation: Whatever gross or
subtle thoughts may arise, by merely recognizing their nature, they arise and
(self-)liberate simultaneously in the vast expanse of the Dharmakaya, where
Emptiness and Awareness (are inseparable). Therefore, one should continue
directly with confidence in their liberation.


THE GOLDEN LETTERS, JOHN MYRDHIN REYNOLDS

As one can clearly see there is neither any mention of any practice before direct introduction nor any mention of any practice practice to be performed after direct introduction. Therefore beware of traditions that claim to teach 'how to practice dzogchen'.
Title: Re: The Three Statements That Strike the Essential Points
Post by: Samana Johann on July 01, 2017, 12:10:30 am
So Ground thinks "his" liberation (as you say you are already) was determined?
Title: Re: The Three Statements That Strike the Essential Points
Post by: ground on July 01, 2017, 12:57:25 am
Mind your own business. There is nothing to discuss here.
 
If I would tell you that you are already liberated from the outset you would doubt. Why? Because you've not been directly introduced.

If I would tell you that you are not liberated yet you would perhaps agreee but I would speak false.

If I would tell you that you are not liberated yet but I am liberated from the outset I would speak false.

If I would tell you that I am not liberated yet I would speak false.

So whatever I would tell you in terms of liberation of you and me -  if it would be authentic you would doubt and only if it would be false there is a chance you would agree.

What's the use of speaking in terms of persons and you and me other than to perpetuate innate self perception?

Every-thing is already liberated from the outset and  what is called 'person' or 'you' or 'me' is nothing other than a thing.
Title: Re: The Three Statements That Strike the Essential Points
Post by: Samana Johann on July 01, 2017, 01:27:53 am
Own business... hmmm.

A determined thing?

"You would doubt. Why? Because you've not been directly introduced." Didn't gound say that there is no need to teach?

(People will love you "Hot dogs" for everyone stories, Ground could determined make a good livelihood with it.)
Title: Re: The Three Statements That Strike the Essential Points
Post by: ground on July 01, 2017, 01:36:36 am
Own business... hmmm.

A determined thing?
an empty thing.

"You would doubt. Why? Because you've not been directly introduced." Didn't gound say that there is no need to teach?
I never taught anything. Sometimes I say or assert things that people expect or are greedy to hear e.g. when I quote suttas from the pali canon. But I never teach anything. Why? Because there is nothing to teach except the many things one has to know in the world but that is what schools are for.

Title: Re: The Three Statements That Strike the Essential Points
Post by: Samana Johann on July 01, 2017, 01:58:56 am
Own business... hmmm.

A determined thing?
an empty thing.
Permanent also?

"You would doubt. Why? Because you've not been directly introduced." Didn't gound say that there is no need to teach?
I never taught anything. Sometimes I say or assert things that people expect or are greedy to hear e.g. when I quote suttas from the pali canon. But I never teach anything. Why? Because there is nothing to teach except the many things one has to know in the world but that is what schools are for.

The empty thing needs a school? Let thing guess: to learn the ratio skill.
Title: Re: The Three Statements That Strike the Essential Points
Post by: ground on July 01, 2017, 02:07:31 am
The empty thing needs a school? Let thing guess: to learn thr ratio skill.
empty things can be very needy due to empty feelings.
Title: Re: The Three Statements That Strike the Essential Points
Post by: Samana Johann on July 01, 2017, 06:12:15 am
The empty thing needs a school? Let thing guess: to learn thr ratio skill.

empty things can be very needy due to empty feelings.

But they can also have the feeling to be liberated, while still "needy" (greedy), if empty instructed by no-instruction.

Quote
One is introduced directly to one's own nature.

By a Dhammas nature that knows, Dhamma guesses.
(Different conventionell: one hears the Good Dhamma, 4NT (inkl. satipaṭṭhānā) with proper attention) -> Maggāmagga-nāna-dassana-visuddhi, purification of the insight-knowledge of right and wrong path.

Quote
One definitively decides upon this unique state.

(Different conventionell: saddha (faith) becomes firm after decision. -> Anuloma-Nāna (knowledge of acceptance), followed by Gotrabha-Nāna (knowledge about the change of kind-ship) -> sotāpanna (Stream-Winner)

Quote
One continues directly with confidence in liberation.

(Different conventionell: whether very eager or not, finall liberation will be reached after max. 7 more existences). More or less consistent satipaṭṭhāna.

Well thats nice, if so. Mudita. But as told, if form got forgotten such a "quicky" can be of disadvantage in just: "Whatever gross or
subtle thoughts may arise, by merely recognizing their nature, they arise and
(self-)liberate simultaneously."

Or like retold once before:

Quote
The Tree Pulls Itself Down ([url]http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/lib/thai/chah/insimpleterms_en.html[/url])

Craving and desire lead us to suffering. But if we contemplate, our contemplation leans out from craving. It contemplates craving, and it pulls on the craving, shakes it up, so that it goes away or lessens on its own.

It's like a tree. Does anyone tell it what to do? Does anyone give it hints? You can't tell it what to do. You can't make it do anything. But it leans over and pulls itself down. When you look at things in this way, that's Dhamma.


Atma still wonders why still searching or clinging after different approach if "liberated" (Streamwinner)? Anyhow, the matter of seeing clearly comes latest with being confronted by death's approach (dukkha), breaking up of form. Or what does Ground like to think and empty comment on it?
Title: Re: The Three Statements That Strike the Essential Points
Post by: IdleChater on July 01, 2017, 06:20:19 am
The empty thing needs a school? Let thing guess: to learn thr ratio skill.

empty things can be very needy due to empty feelings.

But they can also have the feeling to be liberated, while still "needy" (greedy), if empty instructed by no-instruction.

Quote
One is introduced directly to one's own nature.

By a Dhammas nature that knows, Dhamma guesses.
(Different conventionell: one hears the Good Dhamma, 4NT (inkl. satipaṭṭhānā) with proper attention) -> Maggāmagga-nāna-dassana-visuddhi, purification of the insight-knowledge of right and wrong path.

Quote
One definitively decides upon this unique state.

(Different conventionell: saddha (faith) becomes firm after decision. -> Anuloma-Nāna (knowledge of acceptance), followed by Gotrabha-Nāna (knowledge about the change of kind-ship) -> sotāpanna (Stream-Winner)

Quote
One continues directly with confidence in liberation.

(Different conventionell: whether very eager or not, finall liberation will be reached after max. 7 more existences). More or less consistent satipaṭṭhāna.

Well thats nice, if so. Mudita. But as told, if form got forgotten such a "quicky" can be of disadvantage in just: "Whatever gross or
subtle thoughts may arise, by merely recognizing their nature, they arise and
(self-)liberate simultaneously."

Or like retold once before:

Quote
The Tree Pulls Itself Down ([url]http://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/lib/thai/chah/insimpleterms_en.html[/url])

Craving and desire lead us to suffering. But if we contemplate, our contemplation leans out from craving. It contemplates craving, and it pulls on the craving, shakes it up, so that it goes away or lessens on its own.

It's like a tree. Does anyone tell it what to do? Does anyone give it hints? You can't tell it what to do. You can't make it do anything. But it leans over and pulls itself down. When you look at things in this way, that's Dhamma.


Atma still wonders why still searching or clinging after different approach if "liberated" (Streamwinner)? Anyhow, the matter of seeing clearly comes latest with being confronted by death's approach (dukkha), breaking up of form. Or what does Ground like to think and empty comment on it?


Maybe you two should get a room?

 :lmfao: :lmfao:
Title: Re: The Three Statements That Strike the Essential Points
Post by: Samana Johann on July 01, 2017, 06:46:54 am
Idle chater would looks and listen into by nature, would otherwise fearing to lake of material to chater, idle, wouldn't IdleChater?
Title: Re: The Three Statements That Strike the Essential Points
Post by: IdleChater on July 01, 2017, 08:08:45 am
Idle chater would looks and listen into by nature, would otherwise fearing to lake of material to chater, idle, wouldn't IdleChater?

Would mind repeating that, but in English this time?

Sounds like the old "All your base are belong to us" meme.
Title: Re: The Three Statements That Strike the Essential Points
Post by: Samana Johann on July 01, 2017, 09:31:17 am
Idle chater would look and listen into by nature, would otherwise fearing to lake of material to chater, idle, wouldn't IdleChater?

Would mind repeating that, but in English this time?

Sounds like the old "All your base are belong to us" meme.

Strong sakkāya-diṭṭhi hinders that yonisomanasikāra arises. "CATS: Treasure what little time remains in your lives."
Title: Re: The Three Statements That Strike the Essential Points
Post by: ground on July 01, 2017, 08:36:30 pm
The statements in the opening post are fine. However they are the words of the translator. From my perspective these words are not authentic but a kind of dialectical information given to someone who is interested in direct introduction but has not yet been directly introduced.

In order to be able to authenticate these statements I would have to modify them as follows:

Quote
The Three Statements That Strike the Essential Points by ground inspired by Garab Dorje

One is introduced directly to the ground of being.

One definitively decides upon this.

One continues directly with certainty.

Quote
A Short Commentary on the Three Statements of Garab Dorje by ground inspired by H. H. Dudjom Rinpoche

I. As for the direct introduction to the ground of being: This self-aware lucid emptiness
is itself that primordial awareness that is spontaneously present.
This is the direct introduction to the ground of being.

II. As for deciding definitively upon this: Whatever phenomena of
Samsara and Nirvana may manifest, all of them are self-manifestations of self-aware lucid emptiness.
In it there is neither something nor nothing yet it arises in and as everything whatsoever,
so there is nothing to decide upon which is not it.

III. As for directly continuing with certainty: Whatever may be on the verge of arising,
it will arise as self-aware lucid emptiness. That is spontaneously present natural liberation.

Title: Re: The Three Statements That Strike the Essential Points
Post by: IdleChater on July 02, 2017, 05:08:34 am
The statements in the opening post are fine. However they are the words of the translator. From my perspective these words are not authentic but a kind of dialectical information given to someone who is interested in direct introduction but has not yet been directly introduced.

In order to be able to authenticate these statements I would have to modify them as follows:

Quote
The Three Statements That Strike the Essential Points by ground inspired by Garab Dorje

One is introduced directly to the ground of being.

One definitively decides upon this.

One continues directly with certainty.

Quote
A Short Commentary on the Three Statements of Garab Dorje by ground inspired by H. H. Dudjom Rinpoche

I. As for the direct introduction to the ground of being: This self-aware lucid emptiness
is itself that primordial awareness that is spontaneously present.
This is the direct introduction to the ground of being.

II. As for deciding definitively upon this: Whatever phenomena of
Samsara and Nirvana may manifest, all of them are self-manifestations of self-aware lucid emptiness.
In it there is neither something nor nothing yet it arises in and as everything whatsoever,
so there is nothing to decide upon which is not it.

III. As for directly continuing with certainty: Whatever may be on the verge of arising,
it will arise as self-aware lucid emptiness. That is spontaneously present natural liberation.


So you translated this yourself?  From what source text?
Title: Re: The Three Statements That Strike the Essential Points
Post by: ground on July 02, 2017, 05:28:26 am
So you translated this yourself?  From what source text?

This is what I have written:
Quote
The statements in the opening post are fine. However they are the words of the translator. From my perspective these words are not authentic but a kind of dialectical information given to someone who is interested in direct introduction but has not yet been directly introduced.

In order to be able to authenticate these statements I would have to modify them as follows:

And the titles read:
Quote
The Three Statements That Strike the Essential Points by ground inspired by Garab Dorje
Quote
A Short Commentary on the Three Statements of Garab Dorje by ground inspired by H. H. Dudjom Rinpoche
Title: Re: The Three Statements That Strike the Essential Points
Post by: Samana Johann on July 02, 2017, 06:53:41 am
Intoducing to catch the mind: Sometimes, even 10 Yeas no music listening, in certain momemts some sentences come to mind:

"You spin me right Ground, maybe
right round like a record, maybe
Right round round round
You spin me right to Ground, maybe
Right round like a record, maybe
Right round round Ground."

There is a nice Khmer folktale of the story how the rabbit finally became a good judge, which consist of many small stories till the final and is like the mind tendig to be actually smart but not wise for now: sadly the old originals are not avaliable and Atma had once found 4 old books in german, but only a view transcripted. This could contain a good heritage of the story: An Analysis of the Trickster Archetype as Represented by the Rabbit Character in Khmer Folktales (http://sangham.net/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item50):


(Nothing wrong with own translations, interpredations, ... Origin, Guru, Teacher, Honor, popularity... are not measures to prove if Dhamma-Vinaya or not.)

So maybe a general fresh start of the three niccas that could resist longer.
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