Author Topic: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?  (Read 9049 times)

Offline Cheylah

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #75 on: June 22, 2017, 11:26:44 am »
In other words, one is not talking about a strange set of value judgements, but moving to a different level of awareness, one in which no value judgements (good or bad) are involved.


That is very clear.  "Perfect" transcends mind's decisions of good or bad. What is - relatively - is expression of what is - ultimately - and is changing and permanent accordingly, but exact and precise.

Offline ground

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #76 on: June 22, 2017, 08:05:01 pm »
In other words, one is not talking about a strange set of value judgements, but moving to a different level of awareness, one in which no value judgements (good or bad) are involved.
There is no ' moving to' because that awareness is spontaneously present. That is the crucial point and implies that there actually cannot be a dzogchen practice in the common sense of 'practice'. Therefore one speaks of 'direct introduction'.

Offline Rahul

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #77 on: June 22, 2017, 08:35:03 pm »
Accidentally, I hit a cup of coffee on my desk. It spilled all over the desk and on to my clothes...

Everything is just perfect! The gravity is working as it should be, that's why the coffee spilled over. The laws of physics about force, inertia, momentum are working as it they should be. That's why the cup tipped over. My pants absorbed the coffee, the table caught stains of coffee... all substances are working perfectly, obeying their natural properties perfectly...

Things won't be perfect if the cup didn't tip over when my hand hit it hard, if the coffee didn't flow out of the cup when it tipped over...

Yes, everything is just perfect.

Offline ground

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #78 on: June 22, 2017, 08:54:45 pm »
Accidentally, I hit a cup of coffee on my desk. It spilled all over the desk and on to my clothes...

Everything is just perfect! The gravity is working as it should be, that's why the coffee spilled over. The laws of physics about force, inertia, momentum are working as it they should be. That's why the cup tipped over. My pants absorbed the coffee, the table caught stains of coffee... all substances are working perfectly, obeying their natural properties perfectly...

Things won't be perfect if the cup didn't tip over when my hand hit it hard, if the coffee didn't flow out of the cup when it tipped over...

Yes, everything is just perfect.

The crucial point is everything is just perfect just as it is. So how is it?

Offline Rahul

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #79 on: June 22, 2017, 11:46:51 pm »
Accidentally, I hit a cup of coffee on my desk. It spilled all over the desk and on to my clothes...

Everything is just perfect! The gravity is working as it should be, that's why the coffee spilled over. The laws of physics about force, inertia, momentum are working as it they should be. That's why the cup tipped over. My pants absorbed the coffee, the table caught stains of coffee... all substances are working perfectly, obeying their natural properties perfectly...

Things won't be perfect if the cup didn't tip over when my hand hit it hard, if the coffee didn't flow out of the cup when it tipped over...

Yes, everything is just perfect.

The crucial point is everything is just perfect just as it is. So how is it?
'Perfection' is about likeness of given situation/phenomena to your picture of how it should be. You develop ideals, or a model, or a picture of how things should be. And then you compare that ideal or model with given situation/object/phenomena. The more the deviations from the ideal, the less perfect it is. The less deviations from the ideal, the more perfect it is.

Suffering can't exist without joy. Ah yes it's true: there is both suffering and joy in this world! Perrrrrfect.
Everyone must have freedom of actions. Ah yes this exists: there are people waging wars and people spreading message of peace, too! Perrrrrfect!
Each action will result in certain consequences. Ah yes, this is visible: people wage wars and as a result nations and people are destroyed, people work towards development and their nation is prospering. Perrrrrfect!
...

Everything is perfect the way it is because every law of cosmos is being obeyed just like it should be. Each law of cosmos is obeyed precisely and there is nothing happening against cosmic laws. In this way, the world is perfect as it is.

'Perfection' requires having an ideal in mind. If you evaluate the same thing against model 1, it is imperfect. But if you evaluate the same thing against model 2, it maybe just perfect.

Offline Samana Johann

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #80 on: June 23, 2017, 12:19:21 am »
What a fart! That's how this is like.
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Offline ground

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #81 on: June 23, 2017, 12:31:50 am »
Accidentally, I hit a cup of coffee on my desk. It spilled all over the desk and on to my clothes...

Everything is just perfect! The gravity is working as it should be, that's why the coffee spilled over. The laws of physics about force, inertia, momentum are working as it they should be. That's why the cup tipped over. My pants absorbed the coffee, the table caught stains of coffee... all substances are working perfectly, obeying their natural properties perfectly...

Things won't be perfect if the cup didn't tip over when my hand hit it hard, if the coffee didn't flow out of the cup when it tipped over...

Yes, everything is just perfect.

The crucial point is everything is just perfect just as it is. So how is it?
'Perfection' is about likeness of given situation/phenomena to your picture of how it should be. You develop ideals, or a model, or a picture of how things should be. And then you compare that ideal or model with given situation/object/phenomena. The more the deviations from the ideal, the less perfect it is. The less deviations from the ideal, the more perfect it is.
That is one understanding of perfection. However there is a fault since applying this understanding there isn't 'more or less perfect' because either something is perfect or not.

However in the context here 'everything is perfect' means 'there is nothing to improve' just because all comparison with ideals and all wishing and hoping as well as fearing ceases. Everything is already perfect from the outset.

Offline Rahul

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #82 on: June 23, 2017, 01:50:09 am »

However in the context here 'everything is perfect' means 'there is nothing to improve' just because all comparison with ideals and all wishing and hoping as well as fearing ceases. Everything is already perfect from the outset.


'Evaluating scope of improving' is just another way of 'evaluating perfection', these two concepts are one and the same. But it seems that you already have an answer to the question why 'everything is perfect the way it is'.

Offline Samana Johann

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Offline ground

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Re: Is everything perfect "just as it is"?
« Reply #84 on: June 23, 2017, 04:48:31 am »

However in the context here 'everything is perfect' means 'there is nothing to improve' just because all comparison with ideals and all wishing and hoping as well as fearing ceases. Everything is already perfect from the outset.


'Evaluating scope of improving' is just another way of 'evaluating perfection', these two concepts are one and the same. But it seems that you already have an answer to the question why 'everything is perfect the way it is'.

I understand what you are trying to get at. The issue we are facing is that the linguistic expressions 'Everything is already perfect from the outset.' or 'there is nothing to improve' arise in a mode of consciousness that is not one with that to which it is intended to refer and - as is the nature of language - these expressions do necessarily appeal to a mode of consciousness that necessarily isn't the mode referred to either but which is conceptual and discursive (therefore your analysis).

The mode of consciousness referred to with these expressions actually is naturally nonconceptual and empty of conceptual recollection and empty of any dualities. So in this mode 'perfect vs imperfect' does actually not exist. However since this mode of consciousness is the source of all other modes of consciousness all conceptual modes of consciousnesses necessarily are its own manifestations and when these conceptual modes emerge then there is a similtude of recollection of the source base mode  concomitant with knowing itself to be its self-manifestation. Since linguistic/conceptual capacities are again present in this emerged conceptual mode this similitude of a recollection of the base mode can be verbalized, but the verbalization is not 'it' since 'it' is empty of verbalization, dualities and naturally nonconceptual.

So 'Everything is already perfect from the outset.' or 'there is nothing to improve' are expressions of similitudes of recollections but do not authentically describe the mode of consciousness which is directly introduced in the context of dzogchen because in this basic mode there is neither anything nor nothing. However when conceptual modes and modes of perception do set in again after direct introduction has happened there is self-knowing awareness even in these conceptual and perceiving modes of being its own base mode's manifestation. Thus all phenomena then do appear as manifestations of the base and thus empty of inherent existence and therefore neither aversions nor attractions do arise. Boundless equalness.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2017, 05:16:26 am by ground »

 


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