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Schools of Buddhism => Vajrayana => Dzogchen => Topic started by: Thao on September 01, 2010, 09:59:48 am

Title: What is the Dzogchen Method for Handling Anger?
Post by: Thao on September 01, 2010, 09:59:48 am
Okay, I asked the question.  :D
Title: Re: What is the Dzogchen Method for Handling Anger?
Post by: Bodhicandra on September 02, 2010, 02:24:35 am
To receive any Dzogchen practice you have to have an authentic teacher and receive the transmission of the teaching in person.

So no one can describe the method on-line.

What I can try to do is inspire you connect to the teachings by giving you some published information on the Dzogchen attitude to anger.

The best quote I can find is from "Mind beyond Death", Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche, Snow Lion Publications, 2006 (pp. 113/114):

"When we look straight at an emotion such as anger, no matter where or how we look, we cannot pinpoint anything that is solid or real. Our anger appears to us like the reflection of the moon on water - clearly apparent, yet utterly selfless. It is nothing more than the display of mind's luminous energy arising from empty awareness wisdom.
...

For a moment, pretend that it is tomorrow and you are looking back at today, at any moment of anger or strong emotion that you remember. What appears to us now as so real and compelling, such that we speak and act in certain ways, can appear from tomorrow's point of view as no more substantial and significant than a mirage.

When we truly look at our emotions, we find they are simply a display - the expression of self-existing, self-arising wisdom. They are the expression of the nature of mind, of ordinary mind, of rigpa. They are nothing but the manifestation of mind's inherent clarity."


As you can probably tell from the above you need to have been trained in Dzogchen to be able to fully understand, to be able to experience for yourself, this relationship to the emotions.

As I said in one of my other posts, anger is such a strong emotion that it's really valuable in doing these practices, since its effects are so strong and obvious. So the Dzogchen student can be really grateful to anger - and to those who cause it - for providing such a rich training experience.
Title: Re: What is the Dzogchen Method for Handling Anger?
Post by: MikeL on January 07, 2013, 10:04:49 pm
I'd say that if you're focusing on your anger, you may not be open to the rest of reality.  There is so much space in mind. 

You don't "handle" anything in Dzogchen. 

And if you're into methods, I doubt Dzogchen is what you're really interested in.   
Title: Re: What is the Dzogchen Method for Handling Anger?
Post by: NepalianBuddhist on January 07, 2013, 10:16:48 pm
Anger is either channeled out of the body or it gradually dissipates thru a meditation technique.
Title: Re: What is the Dzogchen Method for Handling Anger?
Post by: Lobster on January 07, 2013, 11:13:25 pm
You don't "handle" anything in Dzogchen. 

Clearly
Title: Re: What is the Dzogchen Method for Handling Anger?
Post by: ground on January 08, 2013, 08:37:37 am
Asking teachers, listen to words that produce nice feelings or noble intentions, performing rituals ... whether you look at Theravadins or Vajrayanists or Zennists or Dzogchen practitioners ... they all are manifesting the same dilemma ... no difference.  :fu:
Title: Re: What is the Dzogchen Method for Handling Anger?
Post by: MikeL on January 08, 2013, 10:49:46 am
Hey, Wesley:

You apparently are saying that anger only is extinguished or leaves after something gets rid of the anger.  Is that right? 

I assume that in your meditation you're watching something.  Anger would be a part of your observations, wouldn't it?  If so, then how do you see anger leaving your body-mind?  Do you observe the same repetitive causes driving the anger out, do you observe some randomness (different preceding events or causes), or do you find that anger self-liberates?  I think Dzogchen practitioners would argue that anger (and everything else in the mind) self-liberates.  That, in my view, is not a meditation technique.  It's a form of nonaction:  don't do anything. 

As an aside, it might be of interest to you to look at some of Paul Ekman's work at SFSU.  He's written a few book on emotions. (He's also a close friend of HHDL, and he's complied a set of interviews with HHDL onto a large set of CDs.)  Ekman's work argues that the facial expressions of people from all cultures are identical when it comes to the same basic emotions. Anger is one of a small set of emotions that he delves into in his book, "Emotions Revealed."  That book has maybe 30-40 pictures of people's faces to illustrate his arguments.  Ekman's says that about 40% of the many muscles (75?) in the face cannot be consciously manipulated--but are triggered unconsciously in different emotional states.  (This has helped security forces to develop profiles and behavioral cues by which to assess people's current emotional states; and it supports Strasberg's and Kazan's method acting approaches in theatre and film.)  One of the interesting implications that come out of this his work is that people can sometimes recognize others' emotional states before the people who are experiencing them can recognize them. 

In the book referenced above, Ekman argues for a basis of anger: basically, losing a sense of control over one's life in an important area to oneself. 

There might be many key operative nouns in his definition worth reflecting on: the word "control," the individualization of the word "one" (being a "self" to begin with), and the word "important."  In pure awakened mind, Dzogchen recognizes no existent self nor sense of importance of anything.  What shows up in mind is simply a display.  In other words, there are no concrete objects to attach anything to.  No big deal. 

(Sure, . . . easier said than done, hmm?)   :wink1:
Title: Re: What is the Dzogchen Method for Handling Anger?
Post by: NepalianBuddhist on January 08, 2013, 01:06:46 pm
Hey, Wesley:

You apparently are saying that anger only is extinguished or leaves after something gets rid of the anger.  Is that right? 


I don't know  I think it means finding out why you're "angry" then properly dealing with it.
Title: Re: What is the Dzogchen Method for Handling Anger?
Post by: MikeL on January 08, 2013, 08:21:33 pm
Wes:  Gotcha. 

Many good posts above on the matter, though. 

With all due respect to you and others  here, using spiritual approaches to fix an issue one is having with anger may not be the best approach.  You wouldn't use spiritual approaches to fix a car, and perhaps it might be a bit inappropriate to use them to deal with what might primarily be a psychological issue.  (One might suggest finding the right tool for the job, whatever that might be.) 

Dealing with a psychological issue is shoring up a self.  It is making a self feel better and more comfortable.

Some spiritual scholars / teachers have looked at anger because it provides a well-known experience that can be deconstructed and analyzed so to expose particular spiritual dynamics.  In the end, spiritual practices are meant to disassemble the self, to turn one from being self'ish to being selfless. 

The objectives of the two approaches are fiercely antagonistic; they appear to be diametrically opposed to each other.

Which issue do you want to really deal with?  The spiritual one or psychological one?  (That's a rhetorical question, Wes.  You don't need to answer it.  I admit, this is hardly any of my business other than responding to a post of yours.  What I'm writing doesn't really mean anything, you know.) 
Title: Re: What is the Dzogchen Method for Handling Anger?
Post by: NepalianBuddhist on January 08, 2013, 08:51:41 pm
Well, the basis of the practice is to chip away at all the neurosis/thought disorders and "psychological attachments" to get to the root of reality.

Title: Re: What is the Dzogchen Method for Handling Anger?
Post by: NepalianBuddhist on January 08, 2013, 08:56:32 pm
The therapy of Buddha means "chipping away" at all the mental neurosis and thought disorders - "To get to the root of the reality" ...

.
Title: Re: What is the Dzogchen Method for Handling Anger?
Post by: ground on January 08, 2013, 10:11:36 pm
The therapy of Buddha means "chipping away" at all the mental neurosis and thought disorders - "To get to the root of the reality" ...

.
Why then are there are many buddhists being obesessed by the mental neurosis of "getting somewhere" or "achieving something"?  :fu:
Title: Re: What is the Dzogchen Method for Handling Anger?
Post by: BlueSky on January 08, 2013, 10:26:01 pm
Because not all people know the true reality.

Like people who don't know they are dreaming, they will get involve in it.

Because they don't know the true reality, they think their normal view which is dualistic is reality.

If we have dualistic view, it is automatic there is something for you to achieve or to get.

Even if let's say we can already know there is nothing to achieve, we still have a strong habit that at anytime can bring you back to your old way of seeing.

Longchenpa said this very well in his Treasury of Reality:

Root Text-
"During the empty enchantment of dream
ignorant babes are entranced,
while the wise, disillusioned, are undeceived;
those unaware of the truth of absence,
clinging to their identity, wander in circles,
while the wise yogin, fully present,
aware of the zing of reality
convinced of the absence of that very moment,
is liberated in the non-contingent reality-matrix."

Auto-commentary -
"Enchanted by the play of illusion, children who do not know their own minds are bewitched. They take the show to be real and become attached to it, enwrapped in their imagination. Old people, on the other hand, who know the story, cannot get caught by such fascination...." (Longchenpa)

Title: Re: What is the Dzogchen Method for Handling Anger?
Post by: Spiny Norman on January 09, 2013, 03:49:31 am
And if you're into methods, I doubt Dzogchen is what you're really interested in.   

So doesn't Dzogchen have any methods?
Title: Re: What is the Dzogchen Method for Handling Anger?
Post by: ground on January 09, 2013, 08:50:21 am
So doesn't Dzogchen have any methods?
Does a consciousness "dzogchen" entail another conciousness "dzogchen has methods"?

There is no dzogchen beyond the idea "dzogchen". And affirmation of this idea as more that just an idea (which is a manifestation of conciousness grasping itself) may entail the idea "has methods" since conciousness perpetuates itself

What does "have these ideas"?  :fu:
Title: Re: What is the Dzogchen Method for Handling Anger?
Post by: NepalianBuddhist on January 09, 2013, 11:52:29 am
The therapy of Buddha means "chipping away" at all the mental neurosis and thought disorders - "To get to the root of the reality" ...

.
Why then are there are many buddhists being obesessed by the mental neurosis of "getting somewhere" or "achieving something"?  :fu:

I guess its because they haven't realized Buddha's way of existence.
Title: Re: What is the Dzogchen Method for Handling Anger?
Post by: sdjeff1 on January 09, 2013, 05:34:03 pm
Because not all people know the true reality.

Like people who don't know they are dreaming, they will get involve in it.

Because they don't know the true reality, they think their normal view which is dualistic is reality.

If we have dualistic view, it is automatic there is something for you to achieve or to get.

Even if let's say we can already know there is nothing to achieve, we still have a strong habit that at anytime can bring you back to your old way of seeing.

Longchenpa said this very well in his Treasury of Reality:

Root Text-
"During the empty enchantment of dream
ignorant babes are entranced,
while the wise, disillusioned, are undeceived;
those unaware of the truth of absence,
clinging to their identity, wander in circles,
while the wise yogin, fully present,
aware of the zing of reality
convinced of the absence of that very moment,
is liberated in the non-contingent reality-matrix."

Auto-commentary -
"Enchanted by the play of illusion, children who do not know their own minds are bewitched. They take the show to be real and become attached to it, enwrapped in their imagination. Old people, on the other hand, who know the story, cannot get caught by such fascination...." (Longchenpa)

This was quite helpful for my own current dilemma...

Be well
Title: Re: What is the Dzogchen Method for Handling Anger?
Post by: ground on January 09, 2013, 11:13:34 pm
The therapy of Buddha means "chipping away" at all the mental neurosis and thought disorders - "To get to the root of the reality" ...

.
Why then are there are many buddhists being obesessed by the mental neurosis of "getting somewhere" or "achieving something"?  :fu:

I guess its because they haven't realized Buddha's way of existence.
But that is itself the same mental neurosis, this perception "they have not realized" which implies that there would be "something to realize".  :fu:
Title: Re: What is the Dzogchen Method for Handling Anger?
Post by: Spiny Norman on January 15, 2013, 07:59:30 am
What does "have these ideas"?  :fu:

My little porpoise brain is a source of many wonders... :-P
Title: Re: What is the Dzogchen Method for Handling Anger?
Post by: ground on January 15, 2013, 09:27:18 am
What does "have these ideas"?  :fu:

My little porpoise brain is a source of many wonders... :-P
As long as it is nourished by warmth and moisture. Upon disintegration ideas will cease.  :fu:
Title: Re: What is the Dzogchen Method for Handling Anger?
Post by: Yellowbellied Sapsucker on March 19, 2013, 07:40:58 pm
Edit: I've decided I don't want to talk about Dzogchen at all and risk any karmic infractions.
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