Author Topic: What is the order of Dzogchen practices?  (Read 14098 times)

sahaja

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What is the order of Dzogchen practices?
« on: January 27, 2013, 05:15:24 pm »
What is the order of Dzogchen practices? Or - What's a perquisite of what? There are so many, it's confusing.

Offline ground

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Re: What is the order of Dzogchen practices?
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2013, 10:06:16 pm »
What is the order of Dzogchen practices? Or - What's a perquisite of what? There are so many, it's confusing.
If what is called "Dzogchen" were what it is claimed to be then there would not be any practice or prerequisite. But since what is called "Dzogchen" is not what it is claimed to be it is just another kind of religion. Therefore you should ask the "Dzogchen priests" of the corresponding religious traditions.  :fu:

Offline BlueSky

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Re: What is the order of Dzogchen practices?
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2013, 11:39:14 pm »
It is divided into 3 - base, path, and fruit.

You need to study the base first, minimum to have a correct conceptual understanding.

This one varies. Some people cannot understand it at all, some can understand it conceptually, some can perfectly experience it as well.

So for those who can't experience it directly, there are path (method) how to experience it. There are many methods here. You can choose what suits you.

Fruit is the result of the path, which is the realization of the base, so it is always direct experience here. Where in the base, it can be conceptual. As long as it is not direct experience, you haven't realize the fruit.

Enlightenment is simply the clearing away of misunderstanding. When mistaken thinking is gone, liberation has happened. (Gampopa)


When we verbally indicate a thing as 'this' or 'that', our words, like rabbits's horns, are hollow names, mere fictive imputation upon what does not exist. (Longchenpa)

sahaja

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Re: What is the order of Dzogchen practices?
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2013, 01:08:37 pm »
Quote
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2013, 11:39:14 pm »
 Quote from BlueSky:

It is divided into 3 - base, path, and fruit. ..........


Thank you BlueSky. Your reply helps.

Do Semde, Longde, and Menngagde corresponde with this? And then, for example, where do things like trekchö and tögal fit into this? And others like Tonglen, tiglegyachen, or the yogas like the famous Naropa's 6? Dzogchen forums tend to throw terms around a lot, sometimes at beginners and often arguments erupt over the properness of doing this or that and in what order.

Our teacher told us not to read books and i can understand why. That was pre-internet. I imagine it's also banned for beginners now. So for 20 years i never thought to look at a book or on the internet. Since i have i'm quite lost as to what's being referred to with specific practices. I'm not surprized that we are structured differently. However, there must be some similarity somewhere.

Offline BlueSky

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Re: What is the order of Dzogchen practices?
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2013, 07:12:53 pm »
In terms of base, all of them share the same base.

But in terms of training, they are different. For example:
Treckho is the training for the inseparability of awareness and emptiness.
Togal is the training for the inseparability of appearances and emptiness.

I do not really know which training belongs to which. I know that each of this Semde, Longde, and Menangde has its own way of training.

For example in Longde if I am not wrong, there is a technique like you press certain point in your body and after some time, it can help you to bring in your instance presence.

For my case I also do not really bother whether this one belong to Semde or Longde or Menangde.

The point is how to be free from illusion and how in your daily life you can feel this peacefulness even when you are in the crowded bus for example.

I personally like the training path of Sutra Mahamudra, where your progress can be divided into 4 yoga.

Tsongkhapa said that in your day time, you practice, at night time you read. I can't remember where I read that, and I think that is a good advice.

In Dzogchen and mahamudra, practice doesn't mean we sit and meditate. But we are training in movement. And dzogchen and mahamudra have the way for it.

Other tradition may also have it, but I am not aware of it.


« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 07:23:52 pm by BlueSky »
Enlightenment is simply the clearing away of misunderstanding. When mistaken thinking is gone, liberation has happened. (Gampopa)


When we verbally indicate a thing as 'this' or 'that', our words, like rabbits's horns, are hollow names, mere fictive imputation upon what does not exist. (Longchenpa)

Offline santamonicacj

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Re: What is the order of Dzogchen practices?
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2013, 08:47:32 pm »
At this point your question seems to more about a comprehensive overview of the Nyingma tradition.
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

sahaja

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Re: What is the order of Dzogchen practices?
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2013, 02:09:11 pm »
Quote
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2013, 08:47:32 pm »
Quote from santamonicacj
At this point your question seems to more about a comprehensive overview of the Nyingma tradition.

An overview Is exactly what i'm looking for. Something i can get an outline from. But i was thinking of Dzogchen, not the tradition/school of Buddhism that 'included' it.  Are those terms i mentioned in reply #3 specifically Nyingma? Or perhaps the Nyingma dominate the web? Or the Dzogchen forums?

Offline santamonicacj

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Re: What is the order of Dzogchen practices?
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2013, 02:19:43 pm »
Quote
An overview Is exactly what i'm looking for. Something i can get an outline from. But i was thinking of Dzogchen, not the tradition/school of Buddhism that 'included' it.  Are those terms i mentioned in reply #3 specifically Nyingma? Or perhaps the Nyingma dominate the web? Or the Dzogchen forums?
Dzogchen is the specialty of the Nyingmas. Kagyus do it some , Sakyas and Gelupas basically not at all. So if you are interested in Dzogchen you should ask them. There is no Dzogchen without a tradition to the best of my knowledge.

The terms you were using were all Nyingma terms. You seem to have some Nyingma karma. You might consider checking them out.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 02:23:18 pm by santamonicacj »
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

sahaja

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Re: What is the order of Dzogchen practices?
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2013, 04:36:20 pm »
Quote
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2013, 02:19:43 pm »
Quote from santamonicacj:

Dzogchen is the specialty of the Nyingmas. Kagyus do it some , Sakyas and Gelupas basically not at all.

I was about to add another post here about that. I just tripped into a sentence on the Dharma Wheel that only mentioned the two, Nyingma and the Bon. So i immediately googled it. It appears so. Oddly i was thinking about something close to what you said - putting it as Nyingma karma was a well timed statement. Right now i'm reeling. Need to let some things i've come across the last couple days sink in and do a tad of historical research.

Offline santamonicacj

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Re: What is the order of Dzogchen practices?
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2013, 05:00:59 pm »
I was about to add another post here about that. I just tripped into a sentence on the Dharma Wheel that only mentioned the two, Nyingma and the Bon.
Bon is the indigenous shamanistic tradition that predates Buddhism in Tibet. It has been heavily influenced by Dharma, so at this point in time it is impossible to know what remains of the original tradition since Tibet did not have written language before the import of Buddhism. However the do claim Dzogchen as their own.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 05:02:51 pm by santamonicacj »
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Offline BlueSky

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Re: What is the order of Dzogchen practices?
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2013, 05:45:07 pm »
Bon and Nyigmapa (Dzogchen) are different.

Bon is a native religion or belief in Tibet. Although it is said that Bon also has dzogchen, that is possible. But the Dzogchen itself doesn't come from Bon.

Dzogchen is Tibetan word. In Sanskrit, it is called Mahasanti. The person who introduced it to human world is Prahevajra who was born in the west of India, Oddiyana (currently Pakistan).

In Tibetan Prahevajra is called Garab Dorje.

All of them are just naming.

Probably you can read The Great Image, the life history of Vairotjana. You can buy the ebook, $10.



Enlightenment is simply the clearing away of misunderstanding. When mistaken thinking is gone, liberation has happened. (Gampopa)


When we verbally indicate a thing as 'this' or 'that', our words, like rabbits's horns, are hollow names, mere fictive imputation upon what does not exist. (Longchenpa)

Offline santamonicacj

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Re: What is the order of Dzogchen practices?
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2013, 07:07:37 pm »
Bon and Nyigmapa (Dzogchen) are different.
What is your source for that?

As an aside, Bonpos have a reputation for interest in shamanism as opposed to Dharma.

Quote
Bon is a native religion or belief in Tibet. Although it is said that Bon also has dzogchen, that is possible. But the Dzogchen itself doesn't come from Bon
I am of the opinion they got it from the Nyingmas as well. But that would mean they are similar, at least.

Kudos for knowing about Garab Dorje.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 07:10:52 pm by santamonicacj »
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Offline BlueSky

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Re: What is the order of Dzogchen practices?
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2013, 10:43:05 pm »
I do not know who transmit Dzogchen teaching for Bon tradition. But, for Nyigmapa, it is very clear that Padmashambava was the one.

For Bon tradition, you can read Healing with Form, Energy, and Light. It has a brief explanation of Dzogchen in Bon tradition.

Nagarjuna is also the great practitioner of Dzogchen (Mahasanti).

He received this teaching from the nun Dagnyima.

Quote
At that time, the monk Nagarjuna, an expert in the five sciences who fully understood the meaning of the Tripitaka and knew a great deal about the Secret Mantra teachings based in the result, was in search of the meaning of the effortless Great Perfection. He met the nun Dagnyima and requested the essential truth. She bestowed it in full and summarized the meaning in a song:

While reflecting, even realizing emptiness  is deception.
While clinging, even attachment to the deity fetters.
While thinking, even understanding dharma kaya is a thougth.
While meditating, even cultivating nontought is a concept.

Thus she sung. Nagarjuna understood perfectly what this meant and expressed his own realization as follows:

I, Nagarjuna, am at ease because unborn dharma kaya is free of aggregates.
I am at ease because unspoken unceasing speech is free of attributes.
I am at ease because mindless wisdom mind is free of birth and death.
I have realized enlightened mind as great bliss.

So, Nagarjuna is actually a master of many teachings - Mahasanti, mahamudra, Madyamika.

All are just same.
Enlightenment is simply the clearing away of misunderstanding. When mistaken thinking is gone, liberation has happened. (Gampopa)


When we verbally indicate a thing as 'this' or 'that', our words, like rabbits's horns, are hollow names, mere fictive imputation upon what does not exist. (Longchenpa)

Offline santamonicacj

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Re: What is the order of Dzogchen practices?
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2013, 01:29:52 am »
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At that time, the monk Nagarjuna, an expert in the five sciences who fully understood the meaning of the Tripitaka and knew a great deal about the Secret Mantra teachings based in the result, was in search of the meaning of the effortless Great Perfection. He met the nun Dagnyima and requested the essential truth.
Ok, where did you get that quote? To the best of my knowledge he predates Dzogchen by several centuries.
Warning: I'm enough of a fundamentalist Tibet style Buddhist to believe that for the last 1,000 years Tibet has produced a handful of enlightened masters in every generation. I do not ask that YOU believe it, but it will greatly simplify conversations if you understand that about me. Thanks.

Offline BlueSky

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Re: What is the order of Dzogchen practices?
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2013, 02:20:26 am »
You can read that here:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Great-Image-Vairochana-ebook/dp/B00AYKPKZQ/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1359535959&sr=1-1&keywords=the+great+image

Nagarjuna life span is more than 600 years. So, surely he has learned many great teachings.

Padmashambava himself before going to Tibet ever studied Madyamaka with Nagarjuna. This is shown by Padmashambava life story.

This is the lineage of Mahasanti (or Dzogchen in Tibetan, or Great Liberation in English):

Prahevajra (Garab Dorje)
Brahmin Sarasiddhi (Manjushrimitra, Nalanda brahmin)
King Dhahena Talo
Prince Rajahasti
Princess Parani
Nagaraja Sitrita (Naga King Nanda)
Yakshini Changchubma
Prostitute Barani
Rabnang (Khesmiri abbot)
Maharaja
Princess Gomadevi
Atsantra Aloke
Kukkuraja the Elder
Rishi Bhashita
Nun/Prostitute Dagnyima
Nagarjuna
Kukuraja the Younger
Manjushrimitra the Younger /Manjushri Bhadra
Devaraja
Buddhagupta
Shri Singha Prabha
Prostitute Patu + Vimalamitra + Padmashambava + Vairotsana

Then from Vairotsana the lineage goes down up to now.

Enlightenment is simply the clearing away of misunderstanding. When mistaken thinking is gone, liberation has happened. (Gampopa)


When we verbally indicate a thing as 'this' or 'that', our words, like rabbits's horns, are hollow names, mere fictive imputation upon what does not exist. (Longchenpa)

 


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