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Schools of Buddhism => Mahayana => East Asian Traditions => Topic started by: ram on April 25, 2015, 09:40:12 pm

Title: consciousness
Post by: ram on April 25, 2015, 09:40:12 pm
At what stage a human being who aspires to become Buddha, sheds of his CONSCIOUSNESS or EGO?

Or does Buddha retains the Consciousness in order to help the humanity and life?
In that case does He sheds His Consciousness while entering Nirvan?

Any sutra or idea is welcome.
Title: Re: consciousness
Post by: Dharmakara on April 26, 2015, 06:17:43 pm
As far as I'm aware, most Mahayana traditions teach that in order to realize Buddhahood one must first pass through the ten stages of Bodhisattvahood:

http://www.heartspace.org/writings/traditional/TenBhumis.html (http://www.heartspace.org/writings/traditional/TenBhumis.html)

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/bb/bb18.htm (http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/bb/bb18.htm)
Title: Re: consciousness
Post by: ram on April 26, 2015, 07:51:18 pm
Thanks for sending the details on 10 stages of Bhodhisatvahood.
It was informative.

All the 10 stages come in the range of consciousness.
MY question is not answered. I hope some information comes out on this topic
Title: Re: consciousness
Post by: Dharmakara on April 26, 2015, 09:21:34 pm
There's a good possibility that there won't be a suitable answer to your question, not to your liking anyway, especially if the concept of consciousness is being approached in some concrete or singular form, instead of varying degrees of consciousness, as this can quickly lead to imponderable speculation --- for example, avaivartika is the stage of not falling back into illusion, but the term may refer to a number of different stages conceived within the structure of a bodhisattva's practice, all of which deal with the concept of consciousness in different ways, yet unique to each aspect of the stage being addressed:

http://www.totetu.org/assets/media/paper/k027_184.pdf (http://www.totetu.org/assets/media/paper/k027_184.pdf)

So there's no misunderstanding, I'm using the term "imponderable" in the dialectical sense:

Quote
im·pon·der·a·ble
/imˈpändərəbəl/
noun

1. a factor that is difficult or impossible to estimate or assess.
2. difficult or impossible to estimate, assess, or answer.
"an imponderable problem of metaphysics"


With that said, there might be an answer, again probably not to your liking, where it would seem more than obvious that a Buddha must retain the consciousness of a perfected mind in order to help the humanity and life. As for your second question in regard to shedding consciousness one might need to look no further than the meaning of nibbana/nirvana, which literally means the extinguishing of a fire, so it might depend on one's definition of consciousness.


Title: Re: consciousness
Post by: ram on April 26, 2015, 10:30:45 pm
Dharamkara
your replies have been very valueable and useful.
Thanks for referring me to the suitable sutras as well.

Title: Re: consciousness
Post by: ram on April 26, 2015, 10:34:16 pm
Quote

With that said, there might be an answer, again probably not to your liking, where it would seem more than obvious that a Buddha must retain the consciousness of a perfected mind in order to help the humanity and life. As for your second question in regard to shedding consciousness one might need to look no further than the meaning of nibbana/nirvana, which literally means the extinguishing of a fire, so it might depend on one's definition of consciousness.
[/quote


A perfect answer given by a Master. I loved it.
Title: Re: consciousness
Post by: ram on April 26, 2015, 10:43:41 pm
Dharmakara,
I was pleasantly surprised by your above answer.
This leads me to ask next question from you, your answer may lead to further surprises.

How does the Buddha retain consciousness even after going beyond the plane of consciousness?
If the answer is available in sutras....it is well and good
If not then can you logically conceive of an answer, please do give it.
Title: Re: consciousness
Post by: Dharmakara on April 27, 2015, 01:58:40 am
Manifestation is mind;
And so is Voidness too.
Enlightenment is mind;
And so is blindness too.
The emergence and extinction
Of things are also in one’s mind.
May I understand that all and everything
Inhere only in the mind.
 
—Tilopa, The Vow of Mahamudra
Title: Re: consciousness
Post by: ram on April 27, 2015, 02:27:52 am
Quote
Manifestation is mind;
And so is Voidness too.
Enlightenment is mind;
And so is blindness too.
The emergence and extinction
Of things are also in one’s mind.
May I understand that all and everything
Inhere only in the mind.
 
—Tilopa, The Vow of Mahamudra

Accepted that all is mind.
But Is Emptiness mind.
Even if Emptiness is mind then consciousness does not emerge immediately
 and that mind is universal mind.

How does Buddha mind survive in the sea of universal mind/Emptiness above the level of consciousness level?
Title: Re: consciousness
Post by: Dharmakara on April 27, 2015, 08:13:17 am
The following page is more related to the Theravada tradition, but it might help you in examining your question(s):

http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=31_planes_of_existence (http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=31_planes_of_existence)
Title: Re: consciousness
Post by: ram on April 29, 2015, 03:35:39 am
[/b

32 planes do not give answer to my query.Probably no one has searched for the answer to this query.

This article mentions consciousness on 29th plane. But where is Buddha in this list?
Is He above 29th plane? If so , how does He protect His consciousness?
Title: Re: consciousness
Post by: Ron-the-Elder on April 29, 2015, 06:34:23 am
My understanding and experience is that consciousness resides within mind.  Mind is like a bottle, which contains many factors.  A beer bottle for example contains the organic blend which is called beer.  There are also carbon-dioxide bubbles, fragments which escaped filtration and centrifugation, light, air, and other impurities.  Mind also contains factors, consciousness of touch, smell, taste, sight, thought, feelings, emotions, opinions, concepts, beliefs, ideas, attractants, that which repulses, and etc. . 

Same mind does not survive from life to life, rebirth to rebirth,  not individual, not universal.  Such beliefs are not what Buddha taught:  "Only karmic effect moves on from one life to a rebirth."  That is what Buddha taught. 

Consciousness of any kind is impermanent.  Just ask anyone who has been under the surgical knife subdued by narcotics and thereby rendered "unconscious".
Title: Re: consciousness
Post by: Dharmakara on April 29, 2015, 06:36:08 am
Well, if the 31 planes of existence can be perceived by a Buddha's Divine eye, then it would be reasonable to say that a Buddha can manifest in any of these planes, so it's not an issue of being above or below any particular plane.

As for whether someone has searched for an answer to such a query, well, that might be a mute point, where the more important question might be whether such an answer really has anything to do with breaking the cycle of samsara --- for example, why are you fixated on finding such an answer? Also, how does it assist you on your journey or as you walk the path?
Title: Re: consciousness
Post by: ram on April 29, 2015, 08:39:26 am

As for whether someone has searched for an answer to such a query, well, that might be a mute point, where the more important question might be whether such an answer really has anything to do with breaking the cycle of samsara --- for example, why are you fixated on finding such an answer? Also, how does it assist you on your journey or as you walk the path?


Fact is that "I very much wish for an answer"
There is extreme important reason for this. I will not open up on this reason for the time being .
I would prefer to wait and try for answer everywhere and any where.
There is a mystery  behind this.

Whatever is destined for me will happen, but the right answer will make my path more determined.I will be more confident.
There is such a huge literature of sutras of Buddhas. There must have been an answer.
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