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Schools of Buddhism => Mahayana => East Asian Traditions => Topic started by: Gesar on April 06, 2012, 02:38:05 pm

Title: Source of Teachings on "True Self"?
Post by: Gesar on April 06, 2012, 02:38:05 pm
Some Zen and Vajrayana teachers talk about the "True Self", meaning the Enlightened Self.  Since the Buddha taught only about self and no-self (atman, anatman), what is the source of the concept of "True Self"?
Title: Re: Source of Teachings on "True Self"?
Post by: Hanzze on April 06, 2012, 05:13:43 pm
The whole world is full of thoughts of true self. *smile* You can chose want ever you like.
Title: Re: Source of Teachings on "True Self"?
Post by: Gesar on April 06, 2012, 06:08:25 pm
To clarify my question, what is the basis in Buddhist scripture or later commentary for Zen and Tibetan teachings on the True Self?
Title: Re: Source of Teachings on "True Self"?
Post by: Hanzze on April 06, 2012, 06:12:02 pm
Interpretation and attachment, *smile* or a reasoning to wheel on. All in all ditthi. But you find that in all schools, so its not only a Mahayana appearance. It's humanly or better beingly.
Title: Re: Source of Teachings on "True Self"?
Post by: t on April 06, 2012, 06:29:07 pm
Read the Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra and Tathagatagarbha based/linked Sutras like Srimaladevi, Lankavatara, Tathagatagarbha and so forth... 'true self' has many other cousin names like 'Buddha Nature', 'womb/store of the Tathagata' and so forth and terms like 'original mind/self' are used freely to describe the same thing although how Buddha Nature is interpreted depends on the lineage, teacher and emphasis from the scripture itself...   
Title: Re: Source of Teachings on "True Self"?
Post by: Hanzze on April 06, 2012, 06:34:40 pm
Quote
Mahāsuññata Sutta:

27. I shall not treat you as the potter treats the raw damp clay. Repeatedly restraining you, I shall speak to you, Ānanda. Repeatedly admonishing you, I shall speak to you, Ānanda. The sound core will stand [the test].

*smile* Do not imagine it, if it will appearance naturally, having walked the right path.
Title: Re: Source of Teachings on "True Self"?
Post by: ground on April 06, 2012, 11:46:18 pm
Interpretation and attachment, *smile* or a reasoning to wheel on.
Like e.g. "holy life" or "nibbana"  :wink1:
Title: Re: Source of Teachings on "True Self"?
Post by: Hanzze on April 07, 2012, 12:31:32 am
Yes, it needs to be lived to reach the other or sometimes it needs to be reached to be actually lived. *smile* Terrible loop, it seems that we are not able to come in. Better thinking on the "true self".
Title: Re: Source of Teachings on "True Self"?
Post by: ground on April 07, 2012, 12:38:27 am
Yes, it needs to be lived ...
A fantasy needs to be lived?

Ah ... it is according to the common saying: "You have to live your dreams"  :wink1:
Title: Re: Source of Teachings on "True Self"?
Post by: Hanzze on April 07, 2012, 12:45:31 am
The most do so *smile* others let go...
Title: Re: Source of Teachings on "True Self"?
Post by: ground on April 07, 2012, 12:52:05 am
others let go...
except the thoughts "holy life" and "nibbana" because they make so good feelings :wink1:
Title: Re: Source of Teachings on "True Self"?
Post by: Hanzze on April 07, 2012, 01:44:38 am
We love thought, rather than follow good advices or even realizations *smile* It's like if we would be caught in our livelihood, our actions, our thoughts. If our view's are not right, if we do not have enough we are not willing to go. Selfishness where ever you look.
Title: Re: Source of Teachings on "True Self"?
Post by: santamonicacj on January 22, 2013, 10:52:25 pm
To clarify my question, what is the basis in Buddhist scripture or later commentary for Zen and Tibetan teachings on the True Self?
Basically Asanga's (4th cent. C.E.) "Uttaratantra Shastra". One translation in English is "The Changeless Nature". I'm not sure about the English titles of other translations. It is the main text, but there are others. It is the basis for most of the Buddha Nature teachings. Vasabhandu was also a major writer. Of course their work was elaborated on over the centuries and became the basis for all the variations of monism that say, "Things are perfect just as they are". "True Self" is rarely used as that is a bugaboo because the Hindus use it. Tellingly Asanga didn't try to trace his inspiration back to Sakyamuni, but instead to Maitreya. Go figure.

There is a text attributed to Nagarjuna titled "In Praise of Dharmadhatu", but since it is so different than his other works the authorship is not universally accepted. In the Brunnholzl's translation he cites Pali Canon references to mind's "luminous" quality, thus giving precedent to the entire idea.
Title: Re: Source of Teachings on "True Self"?
Post by: ground on January 22, 2013, 10:54:45 pm
...what is the source of the concept of "True Self"?
The arising of the sense of self in the sphere of the khandhas.  :fu:
Title: Re: Source of Teachings on "True Self"?
Post by: songhill on January 23, 2013, 08:46:22 am
To clarify my question, what is the basis in Buddhist scripture or later commentary for Zen and Tibetan teachings on the True Self?
Basically Asanga's (4th cent. C.E.) "Uttaratantra Shastra". One translation in English is "The Changeless Nature". I'm not sure about the English titles of other translations. It is the main text, but there are others. It is the basis for most of the Buddha Nature teachings. Vasabhandu was also a major writer. Of course their work was elaborated on over the centuries and became the basis for all the variations of monism that say, "Things are perfect just as they are". "True Self" is rarely used as that is a bugaboo because the Hindus use it. Tellingly Asanga didn't try to trace his inspiration back to Sakyamuni, but instead to Maitreya. Go figure.

There is a text attributed to Nagarjuna titled "In Praise of Dharmadhatu", but since it is so different than his other works the authorship is not universally accepted. In the Brunnholzl's translation he cites Pali Canon references to mind's "luminous" quality, thus giving precedent to the entire idea.

Another text western scholars have problems with, but one which is very important, is N's Mahaprajñâpâramita Shastra which is treated in K. Venkata Ramanan's wonderful book, Nagarjuna's Philosophy. It is really a help in seeing what N's Karikas are really saying rather than what western scholars imagine his Karikas are saying.
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