Author Topic: Thoughts of being Transgender  (Read 4912 times)

Offline moonbeam

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Thoughts of being Transgender
« on: August 25, 2013, 05:13:17 pm »
Okay, so I'm bi-sexual and been out of the closet since 06/07. It's been good so far. I don't talk about it that often but if it comes up, I'm not afraid to talk about it. But sometimes I have these feelings of wanting to be a woman. When I see things that are women related I sometimes wish that I was a woman, so I would be able to use it, or wear it. But the thing is that I have nobody to talk to about these feelings. Even though my parents know of me being Bi, I have no idea how to talk to them about these feelings. Nor do I know of anybody else who is Trans. I also want to know about what Buddha says about this. Right now, it feels like I really need to open up.  :bigtears:

Offline namumahaparinirvanasvaha

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Re: Thoughts of being Transgender
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2013, 07:53:31 pm »
Okay, so I'm bi-sexual and been out of the closet since 06/07. It's been good so far. I don't talk about it that often but if it comes up, I'm not afraid to talk about it. But sometimes I have these feelings of wanting to be a woman. When I see things that are women related I sometimes wish that I was a woman, so I would be able to use it, or wear it. But the thing is that I have nobody to talk to about these feelings. Even though my parents know of me being Bi, I have no idea how to talk to them about these feelings. Nor do I know of anybody else who is Trans. I also want to know about what Buddha says about this. Right now, it feels like I really need to open up.  :bigtears:

Hey whats up!
What would the Buddha say on this topic.......it would go something like this...

Straight man you have sexual attachment to woman....
Gay man you have sexual attachment to man....
Both of you have SAME sexual attachment...the only difference is the object of your attachment.
Both of you suffer cause of your attachments.....it matters not the object you are attached to.

So friend your in the same boat as everyone else who is suffering,the only difference is the objects of our desires.

Hope that helps.

Offline Lobster

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Re: Thoughts of being Transgender
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2013, 09:54:11 pm »

Offline Alexey

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Re: Thoughts of being Transgender
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2013, 12:12:34 am »
As i know it is impossible to some sexual minority (Bi, Homo, Trans, Hermaphrodite, Сastrate) to ordain as a bhikkhu, in monastic order.

The Samyaksambuddha transcends gender.  :hug:
From Pali Canon point of view - it's not realy true.

In AN 1.279-283 (+ MN115) Buddha say that it is imposible that woman can be Sammasambuddha, Wheel-tourning Monarch, occupy position of Sakka (King of Devas), position of Mara, or position of Brahma.
She should rebirth as a man first.

You can ask your question) - http://ask.fm/AlekseyKaverin

Suffering - should be understood
Origin of suffering - should be abandoned
Cessation of suffering - should be realised
The way leadding to cessation of suffering - should be developed

Offline Lobster

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Offline t

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Re: Thoughts of being Transgender
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2013, 01:55:05 am »
To the OP: the Buddha's message on the Path & Fruit is simple: duhkha & duhkha nirodha, unsatisfactoriness & the cessation of unsatisfactoriness. Whatever sexuality we are all in, we are all facing the same 'default position' of samsara: duhkha. The Buddha offers a way out of this 'position', the Path & Fruit, out of it.

Question is, am I ready to walk and accomplish this Path & Fruit?
This is something only you can answer. Your own damnation or liberation is within the palm of your hand...

This verse, spoken out of realisation, has been so powerful in my own life...
What does womanhood matter at all
When the mind is concentrated well,
When knowledge flows on steadily
As one sees correctly into Dhamma.

One to whom it might occur,
'I'm a woman' or 'I'm a man'
Or 'I'm anything at all' —
Is fit for Mara to address.


Quote
As i know it is impossible to some sexual minority (Bi, Homo, Trans, Hermaphrodite, Сastrate) to ordain as a bhikkhu, in monastic order.

First off, may it be suggested of the phrase 'homo', especially in this sub forum dedicated to all things on GLBTI, not to be used, like how one doesn't use the 'N' word when referring to those of African ancestry and descent. A matter of political sensitivity makes a difference in some places on earth where the wrong phrase used can endanger one's life and reputation... 
In many places, it's used as a slur against the gays and lesbians, if one doesn't know that by now

Secondly, the commentary on the Vinaya on ATI and the learned Bhante Dhammanando on Dhamma Wheel discussed the term 'pandaka' of which out of the five types, the first two are allowed for ordination as found in this here
So one has to put into context what is allowable and not a blanket approach...

Anymore than those who simply used the Mahayana text of the Lotus Sutra in one of its chapters out of context on a Bodhisattva's range of association to shun those who are 'pandakas', a term which even scholars find hard to translate and define and here we have some playing 'experts'. In the same chapter, it also mentioned 'Hinayanists' but there are no Hinayanists today in existence if some meant the early Indian Schools and some mavericks conveniently think it's Theravada, since it's the only survivor today and cause severe sectarianism. The same with Agama texts which talks on the subject of what is sexual misconduct and there gross generalisations, traditional culture, Brahmanical attitudes and moral standards are influenced into Buddhist commentary to defend the traditional institution of marriage and social mores.   

Quote
Quote
The Samyaksambuddha transcends gender.  :hug:

From Pali Canon point of view - it's not realy true.

In AN 1.279-283 (+ MN115) Buddha say that it is imposible that woman can be Sammasambuddha, Wheel-tourning Monarch, occupy position of Sakka (King of Devas), position of Mara, or position of Brahma.
She should rebirth as a man first.
This is an old raging and inconclusive debate within many quarters of both Theravada and Mahayana as well as Buddhist scholars which have challenged the above as 'cultural accreditations' and are as regarded with doubtful veracity if taken as literal as others like the Bhikkhuni Garudhammas, expecting parents to arrange marriages for children, causes of earthquakes, demonising the character of Devadatta and much more, not to mention how much of the Khuddaka Nikaya and the Abhidhamma having lots of later additions & composition...
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 01:58:08 am by t »

Offline Dharmakara

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Re: Thoughts of being Transgender
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2013, 02:11:36 am »
As i know it is impossible to some sexual minority (Bi, Homo, Trans, Hermaphrodite, Сastrate) to ordain as a bhikkhu, in monastic order.


Alexey, I'm not sure where you got your information from, but there are in fact quite a few monastics who are openly gay, where it's actually not even an issue because they remain celibate --- there's also a transgendered person in Thailand who recently received ordination after removing her breast implants.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 02:14:39 am by incognito, Reason: spelling »

Offline BlueSky

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Re: Thoughts of being Transgender
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2013, 02:43:18 am »
Mind is not male nor female.

Whether you change your gender manually (by operation) or naturally (by rebirth), your mind is not affected by gender.

All these things cannot change the ground of purity. So, basically it is not affected, because basically nothing to be affected.

However, what is the point to change it? It simply has no use.

Even you change it, it doesn't make you even better. You don't change it, it also doesn't make you even better.

If by changing it can make you happy, someday you will realize it is also ok not to change it, because at the end it doesn't matter at all.

So, ultimately what is the point to change?

It is better to be not influenced by those thoughts, because if you follow them, it also doesn't make you even better.
Enlightenment is simply the clearing away of misunderstanding. When mistaken thinking is gone, liberation has happened. (Gampopa)


When we verbally indicate a thing as 'this' or 'that', our words, like rabbits's horns, are hollow names, mere fictive imputation upon what does not exist. (Longchenpa)

Offline namumahaparinirvanasvaha

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Re: Thoughts of being Transgender
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2013, 02:47:19 am »
As i know it is impossible to some sexual minority (Bi, Homo, Trans, Hermaphrodite, Сastrate) to ordain as a bhikkhu, in monastic order.


Alexey, I'm not sure where you got your information from, but there are in fact quite a few monastics who are openly gay, where it's actually not even an issue because they remain celibate --- there's also a transgendered person in Thailand who recently received ordination after removing her breast implants.

It would take a very long time to explain it and quote and paste reference/sources so I going to free style it.

Originally in the Vinaya the 5 "unmanly people"(gays bi"s...ect) were allowed to be ordained.
After awhile there was a huge scandal errupted and the precept to not ordain gays...ect was put into the vinaya to quell the discord.

Now such things as this happened quite often for instance....originally in the Vinaya murders/criminals were allowed to be ordained...this was how ANGULIMALA came into the Sangha....BUT after awhile a scandal happened and criminals could no longer be ordained.

Now these type of precepts were known as MINOR precepts (which is to say these things were okay to do originally,but were banned due to The current cercumstance)

Now in the Digha Nikaya before the Buddha died he told his followers they had to KEEP the major precepts,but the MINOR precepts that were instituted due to curcumstance could be removed.

you start to see alot of modification to Vinaya after this,also this is the reason most Mahayana follow the Brahma Net sutra as Vinaya.

Also the Nirvana sutra goes even further by redifining the term "bi sexual"
Where as the Thervadans use the term to describe actual bi sexual people,the Nirvana sutra says the actual vinaya term "bi sexual" has nothing to do with an actual phscical person,but is instead a slang term known as two rooted/bi sexual which was meant to describe monks who were living a double life as monk and laity.

Likewise(and this is where sectarian conflicts come into play)
The Mahayana sutra claim many Pali canon suttas to be frauds(usually you hear this the other way around)

The sutta MN 115 is actually refuted as false in the Lotus sutra chapt 12 when the dragon girl says she is Enlightened and only the Buddha can know she is.at this point Sariputra says BS your not enlightened cause the MN 115 sutta says you are not......she then proves she was not lying.....

Also MN 115 is refuted in the Nirvana sutra when the Buddha says there was a female Buddha.
Soooo...... Sorry to ramble on.(many Thervadans dont accept Mahayana sutras as authentic,likewise many Mahayanists dont accept some of the Pali canon as authentic)

Peace and love
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 03:18:45 am by namumahaparinirvanasvaha »

Offline Dharmakara

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Re: Thoughts of being Transgender
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2013, 03:58:15 am »
Originally in the Vinaya the 5 "unmanly people"(gays bi"s...ect) were allowed to be ordained.
After awhile there was a huge scandal errupted and the precept to not ordain gays...ect was put into the vinaya to quell the discord.

Now such things as this happened quite often for instance....originally in the Vinaya murders/criminals were allowed to be ordained...this was how ANGULIMALA came into the Sangha....BUT after awhile a scandal happened and criminals could no longer be ordained.

Now these type of precepts were known as MINOR precepts (which is to say these things were okay to do originally,but were banned due to The current cercumstance)

Really? That's quite interesting, not only because I've spent most of my adult life within the monastic estate, but at no time have I ever hidden the fact when asked that my sexual orientation was gay --- I say "was" because sexual orientation doesn't define the monastic, least of all when celibacy is maintained and adhered to.

Hate to say it, but your comments remind me of similar statements made by the Dalai Lama, where he actually went so far as to even claim that there were no gay Tibetan monks.

Time for a reality check :lmfao:
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 04:00:10 am by incognito »

Offline namumahaparinirvanasvaha

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Re: Thoughts of being Transgender
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2013, 04:55:08 am »
Originally in the Vinaya the 5 "unmanly people"(gays bi"s...ect) were allowed to be ordained.
After awhile there was a huge scandal errupted and the precept to not ordain gays...ect was put into the vinaya to quell the discord.

Now such things as this happened quite often for instance....originally in the Vinaya murders/criminals were allowed to be ordained...this was how ANGULIMALA came into the Sangha....BUT after awhile a scandal happened and criminals could no longer be ordained.

Now these type of precepts were known as MINOR precepts (which is to say these things were okay to do originally,but were banned due to The current cercumstance)

Really? That's quite interesting, not only because I've spent most of my adult life within the monastic estate, but at no time have I ever hidden the fact when asked that my sexual orientation was gay --- I say "was" because sexual orientation doesn't define the monastic, least of all when celibacy is maintained and adhered to.

Hate to say it, but your comments remind me of similar statements made by the Dalai Lama, where he actually went so far as to even claim that there were no gay Tibetan monks.

Time for a reality check :lmfao:

Yea I agree with you,
(my comments were to explain where Alexey got his views from,which is from the Theravadan Vinaya,
being east asian Mahayana we usually accept the Brahma Net Sutra as our Vinaya(removing
all minor precepts)and keeping secondary and pramoska).

P.s the dali lama follows what is considered the Thervadan Vinaya ordination.

Offline Alexey

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Re: Thoughts of being Transgender
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2013, 05:45:56 am »
I have nothink against sexual minority, i have some friends gay, and even 2 friend who i knew as not-gay by the past, and after some times they become homosexual ect. Some peoples even think that i'am gay, becaue i have no any sexual activity  :teehee: I love troll them about it   :D
So it's really not some problem for me :wink1:

But as question was posed about 'what Buddha say about it', i asnwer.

All Vinaya is result of current sircumstances. At the very begining there was not any Vinaya or Discipline, just 5 precepts. It's because a the begining Sangha was composed exclusively by trained and realised ascetics, and Discipline for them is like breathing. But when Sangha become larger, the need for instoring Discipline rulles arise.

Here Buddha explain why he instored Vinaya and Discipline:
MN 65 : Advice to Venerable Bhaddàli
'Venerable sir, what is the reason that earlier, with few rules many bhikkhus attained extinction, and now with many rules a few bhikkhus attain extinction?' 'Baddali, it happens when human beings diminish in good and when the Teaching deteriorates. Many rules are appointed few bhikkhus attain extinction. Bhaddali, the Teacher does not appoint a rule until a fall for desires is evident, when falls for desires are evident among the Community, the Teacher appoints a rule for the dispelling of those falls for desires. Until the Community grows large, these falls for desires do not become evident. Until the Community become the highest gainers, the Community reaches the highest fame, become the most learned, the long standing ones, a fall for desires does not become evident. Bhaddali, when a bhikkhu becomes a long standing one a fall for desires becomes evident and then the Teacher appoints a rule to dispel those falls for desires. '

http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima2/065-bhaddali-e1.html

Here Buddha explain reasons why he has prescribed the training rules for his disciples :
AN 2.280
"Bhikkhus, it is for these two reasons that the Tathagata has prescribed the training rules for his disciples. What two?
- For the well-being of the Sangha and for the ease of the Sangha ...
- For keeping recalcitrant persons in check and so that well-behaved bhikkhus can dwell at ease...
- For the restraint of tains pertaining to this present life and for the dispelling of taints pertaining to future lives...
- For the restraint of enmities partaining to this present life and for the dispelling of enmities pertaining to future lives...
- For the restraint of faults partaining to this present life and for the dispelling of faults pertaining to future lives...
- For the restraint of perils partaining to this present life and for the dispelling of perils pertaining to future lives...
- For the restraint of unwholesome qualities partaining to this present life and for the dispelling of unwholesome qualities pertaining to future lives...
- Out of compassion for laypeoples and to stop the faction of those with evil desires...
- So that those without confidance might gain confidance and for increasing [the confidence] of those with confidence...
- For the continuation of the good Dhamma and for promoting the discipline.
It is for these two reasons that the Tathagata has prescribed the training rules for his disciples."

(Bhikkhu Bodhi translation)

I nerver read Vinaya, so i can not say with 100% confidance that all sexual minorities can not ordain. But what i know for sure is that hermaphrodites and castrates can not ordain. Buddha even prohibed to bhikkhus cutting their penis lol

But a question arise in me.
Is gay or bi or trans should be ordain as bhikkhu or as bhikkhuni?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 05:59:43 am by Alexey »
You can ask your question) - http://ask.fm/AlekseyKaverin

Suffering - should be understood
Origin of suffering - should be abandoned
Cessation of suffering - should be realised
The way leadding to cessation of suffering - should be developed

Offline t

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Re: Thoughts of being Transgender
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2013, 06:28:51 am »
Quote
...being east asian Mahayana we usually accept the Brahma Net Sutra as our Vinaya(removing all minor precepts)and keeping secondary and pramoska).
The East Asian Mahayana (China, Korea, Vietnam & elsewhere with respective transmission) does not accept the Brahmajala Sutra as Vinaya. What is used as Vinaya Pratimoksa is the version by the ancient Indian Dharmaguptaka School, which was finalised during the Tang by imperial order as the sole source of Pratimoksa for monastic ordination, out of a collection of what is known as 'The Five Great Vinayas' (Sarvastivada, Mulasarvastivada, Mahasamghika, Dharmaguptaka & Mahisasaka [am not sure why they didn't include Theravada Pali Vinaya via Ayya Sanghamitta's two journeys to ancient Southern China who was said to have transmitted the short lived Theravada lineage there]) that were transmitted into China back then. This is akin to what happened during Acarya Atisa's time in Tibet where the local king requested him not to transmit nor ordain the locals under his own Vinaya lineage, the Mahasamghika as there was already an earlier existing ordination lineage of Mulasarvastivada as previously brought into Tibet by Acarya Santaraksita in the 8th century.

Why did I not include Japan in the list above?
Because they did a revolutionary movement in ditching of the ancient transmission of the Chinese Dharmaguptaka Vinaya over a thousand years ago in favour of the Brahmajala Sutra, the major source for Bodhisattva Sila in East Asia (though not the only one), as the source for ordination. To some scholars, they attributed this to some movements from China who were experimenting this model, moving away from the traditional Vinaya and found acceptance & implementation for various reasons in Japan. The only ones in Japan who may still be faithful to the old model would probably be a minority or modern transmissions of the same Dharmaguptaka or those from Theravada & Mulasarvastivada.

Hence, traditional Japanese Mahayana clergy (both in Japan & its affiliated overseas transmissions) is generally regarded as non-monastic from Vinaya point of view because the source of ordination is not from any of the traditional surviving three Vinayas available today. Hence, they are not known as 'Bhikshu / Bhikshuni / Siksamana / Sramanera / Sramaneri'. What they are commonly known in English translations are 'priest/priestess', although I am personally not in favour of this because a 'priest' in the traditional sense, has theistic connotations of being an intermediary between humans and gods.

In other East Asian Mahayana traditions however, Dharmaguptaka Vinaya remains the only source for monastic ordination but the Brahmajala Bodhisattva Sila when taken, has no real distinction of monastic or lay for its adherents in the context of ordination unlike in Japan which uses the latter as the main source for ordination. When taken, it's because of the East Asian practice of Bodhisattva Path. For a long time, there was a misunderstanding by many that the Bodhisattva Sila was only for the monastics when in actual fact, it's open for both lay and monastic. So, for the East Asian monastics, the Bodhisattva Sila is just a second tier of precepts and discipline on top of the Dharmaguptaka Vinaya.   

Quote
P.s the dali lama follows what is considered the Thervadan Vinaya ordination.
This is incorrect. The Dalai Lama takes his ordination source from the Mulasarvastivada Vinaya, which is what the Himalayan Buddhist traditions & its affiliates follow. Remember the paragraph above re: Acarya Atisa?

And their Bodhisattva Sila version is as extensive as the Brahmajala Sutra version (10 Primary Vows/Precepts & 48 Secondary/Minor Vows/Precepts), from the Akasagarbha Sutra as cited in Santideva's Siksasamuccaya, via Acarya Atisa & Acarya Asanga's Bodhisattvabhumi and transmitted in two traditions of Nagarjuna & Asanga: 18 root downfalls & 46 secondary vows.
On top of that, they have another set of Tantric Vows.

Scholars have opined that when comparing the 3 Vinayas, Theravada & Dharmaguptaka are closer cousins to each other than Mulasarvastivada. 

Quote
Is gay or bi or trans should be ordain as bhikkhu or as bhikkhuni?
There are plenty of resources online on what is GLBTI from the proper medical science perspective. Then you can map them into the five classes of ordination.
 
I dunno why ordination is brought up in this topic? The OP never even asked for it?
Back to topic

Offline Alexey

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Re: Thoughts of being Transgender
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2013, 06:41:05 am »
I dunno why ordination is brought up in this topic? The OP never even asked for it?
Back to topic


Perhaps because Buddha (in Pali Canon) don't realy thought anything other about GLBTI, but only in terms of Vinaya and Ordination?

 :lipsseald:
You can ask your question) - http://ask.fm/AlekseyKaverin

Suffering - should be understood
Origin of suffering - should be abandoned
Cessation of suffering - should be realised
The way leadding to cessation of suffering - should be developed

Offline t

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Re: Thoughts of being Transgender
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2013, 06:56:55 am »
Dhamma & Vinaya...
The Vinaya is not all about just ordination, there's also the basic Panca & the Uposatha Attha Sila for lay people besides being a source of other Discourses like the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta from the Vinaya's Mahavagga besides having another source from the Samyutta Nikaya

And you're right, the Buddha was quite 'silent' on the matter unless one reads stuff like Vakkali Sutta to understand how He dealt with those who admired His physical beauty and the story of Maha Kaccana who has a strange tale of a man who carelessly wished to be the Thera's wife...

 


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